What has happened to the results for race 10 and the overall points. I can't see them, is it my screen ?

Interested to hear details about the protests / redress requests.

1. Reasons for allowing boats identified as over the line back into the race via what appears to be a technicality / loophole.

2. Result of the redress requsters that claimed the recall flag was not flown and so did not return when over.

The salcombe website seems to have disabled horizontal scrolling, so you cannot see what goes off the screen on the right. I have stolen the results (John won't mind) and put them on our site...

Somebody official might come on this site to answer your two questions but I am pretty confident in saying that:

1.  The two boats confirmed as over the line in race five have been scored OCS.  The third boat (3655) was found to have not been over the line and had been mis-identified.  There is no way to disqualify the third boat that was over the line after the event, and so they got lucky.  It was a pity that the photo evidence of that start was not made available to the protest committee in time, but the good news is that it apparently confirms that they found the correct facts.
2.  The three boat protest over the flying of the indivdual recall flag on Thursday was finally thrown out on Friday evening.

It was a great week of sailing, and it was a slight pity that protests were not regarded by more people as an amusing and essential part of the regatta. I thought that there should have been more protests during the week and that the sailing would have been improved if there had been.

Many thanks to all of the volunteers at SYC that gave up their time to be in the Watch House or sit on the protest committees.

Antony 
M3627

I'm suprised that 3655 was not lobbed for rule 69 after the race given the foul language directed at the race officer so they are lucky not to have been banned from the event.

Yes, it's a shame that such incidents are not dealt with more severely. If you are lobbed on the line..... tough, accept the consequences. To bad mouth anyone on or off the water the offending party(s) should be shown the way to the showers very quickly regardless.

Tom and I are friends, so you might assume I am bias, but I was standing on the grass by the Watch House when he finished and so did witness this first hand whereas I did not see the start. 

1.  The poor language was not directed at any individual it was general frustration, but was nonetheless unacceptable.
2.  He tells me that he was very apologetic as soon as he got ashore, and in the protest room.

Nobody should accept being lobbed if they were not over the line, and the photo shows that it was a simple case of a similar number and similar coloured boat being over and not Tom.  The PRO was very quick on that day to accept that he and his team are fallible, and was happy for Tom to lodge a protest to try to prove his innocence which he then successfully did.  I am not sure why this protest was such an issue, this must have happened at Merlin events before.

I thought  that maybe we should clarify some things. I swore when we did not get a gun "F**ck Chris we were no where near that line!" I am surprised that anyone outside the boat heard it , I doubt they did. 
We sailed over to the watch house. "We were nowhere near the f**cking line, third rank." 
The race officers reply was "We are not fallible. Fill in a protest form and if you can prove it the jury should re-instate you."
I apologise if my language upset anyone. I, at no time directed my language or swore at anyone in particular.
I apologised to the race officer on collecting my protest form. 
He accepted my apologies and we shared a couple of beers at gentlemanly protest meeting. I, at no time directed my language or swore at anyone in particular.
I suggest the anonymous writer has a look at rule 69.

As you said f**ck rather than f*ck and could prove it then that's ok!!  I take my hat off to Tom for A) admitting it and b) having the courage for putting the record straight on the forum.

Observer

was it you on line watch who wrote down Tom and Chris' number?  Are you blind or just a trouble maker at heart?  I believe it was a genuine error which was fortunately resolved.  Why dont you tell us what you really think?

Anthony writes
"this must have happened at Merlin events before"

When Mark & I sailed in the Snowflake, we didn't get a gun, and we knew we were not over the line.

We protested. The race committee had made a mistake and we were re-instated.

If you know where you are and at the start you are behind other boats that got a result why should you accept a mistake, if you have raced in good faith.

If we are going to treat Salcombe week as a serious event and any rule breaking should be punished, then should we prevent helms who are not entered in the event from taking part in races, as by their presence on the line they are affecting someones race, even if they retire before the end of the race.

At the AGM, our esteemed Hon Treasurer was musing over ways to spend (usefully)some of the Association's surplus.

Please can I suggest that we spend some our our surplus on suitable video/photographic bits that can be tethered to either side of the Salcombe line and can be taken off to use at the Inlands and the Nationals. I'm sure that it would free up lots of spare time if the protests can be killed at birth.
Question: Suppose that boat number xxxx was lobbed (correctly) via camera and boat yyyy wasn't but is seen on the evidence presented to be over, can the Protest Committee lob them?

Unfortunately you can't prevent anyone from being anywhere on open water, even at the Nationals. If a 36 foot cruising yacht or an un-entered merlin sails through the start line, what exactly are you going to do about it? Perhaps we should ban wind shifts whilst we are about it as they can really muck up your race.

The Nationals at Hayling last year did use video to useful effect. On one second start under a black flag only 2 of us held back and the vast majority pushed to the limit at the line, as we crossed the line to the sound of anther general recall, we called up saying please dsq that lot and give us 1st & 2nd, they relied just wait. 20 minutes later after reviewing the video evidence 18 boats were sent home.

Well done Alan, this was suggested for the Salcombe start last year at the first committee meeting after Salcombe following an incident when nobody was lobbed from a black flag start even though half the fleet had been over, sadly a certain personality dismissed the idea and that was the end of that.

Personally I think it is a no brainer, it removes human error and results in a 100% accurate and infallible system making life easier and happier for competitors and race committee.

Lets have a quick show of hands for support.

and the race office kindly showed the video to an elderly relative of mine, who had been lobbed, which clearly showed that he was ok. they had made a mistake on the committee boat! Oh well s**t happens.

Does Rule 60.3 allow the protest committee to lob out sailors for being over the line? Probably only in the instance of a valid protest regarding the starting.

I am for the use Video Cameras and jury boats.

I prefer the good old days, when OCS was taken like a man (or woman).

If Tom has proven that he was behind the line at the start then I don't think anyone can argue with his decision to protest and it appears that justice has been done.

I think the reason that some people were uncomfortable with this whole protest is that rumour( obviously it may be a load of rubbish) in the pub / boat park was that this fact was not proven in the protest room and the only reason Tom was re-instated was due to a techicality in the sailing instuctions that stated only the Race Officer was able to identify OCS boats, which in Tom's case had been done by another spotter.

A camera at each end would not identify anything in the middle of the line, and could easily be totally obscured when a boat right next to it is over. We had this discussion before too - laser sights, GPS, none would work.

Hi,

I line watch from Smalls in regatta weeks, having been called in when the race committee asked for competent line watchers after uncoroberated video evidence was presented at a protest.

I don't think that there is any issue with boats that are clearly over, the problem comes when a boats sail number is covered by boats to windward and to leeward.  In this situation the line watcher has to follow the boat up the course to identify its sail number after it emerges from the pack.  Once the line of sight is broken it is very easy to pick up the wrong boat.  Bow noumbers might help this situation but they are not very pretty.

Personally I think that if there is any question of identification the benefit of the doubt should be given.  My experience is that this is usually the case.

I can see a case for video evidence to be used for reinstatement, but not for disqualification, as was noted by the unfortunate elder member of the Warren family.  The response time would not be quick enough in a OCS situation and the video would have to be right on the line and show the countdown timer.  Also it would not identify what is going on in the bulge as previously noted.

However what the current system does not account for is the guy who is completely covered, who decides to take the fleet over with him.

Finally, I  have always found Tom to be a gentleman on and off the water, he must have been very cross.

Regards,

DavidG

Regarding benefit of doubt, the clear guidance from the RYA on protests between the race committee and competitor is if there is any doubt the benefit must go to the competitor.

I'm not sure I understand the comment "However what the current system does not account for is the guy who is completely covered, who decides to take the fleet over with him." How could you possibly determine that. Each boats helm acts independently and so can always luff head to wind to stop, how can you determine that some one covered completely lead the whole fleet over? I can see that the fleet may follow a boat that is ahead and over, and that is quite common, hence all the general recalls, but that boat wouldn't be 'covered' it would be ahead.

Sorry got that the wrong way round  - 
guidance M3.4
A boat claims she was wrongly identified as OCS (or ZFP or BFD): give the benefit of any doubt to
the race committee, whose race officer will have been best placed to identify her.
M3.5

jib numbers are the way forward. other classes use them pretty effectively.

Alan,

What I meant was, with the tide under the start, there are sailors who will take the rest of the fleet over for "tactical" reasons, i.e. "I'm going to be over early, so if I take a load more boats the start might get binned".

With regard to benefit of the doubt, I am saying that if there is any doubt as to the clear identification of the competitor, the benefit should be given to the competitor WHEN THE NUMBERS ARE BEING TAKEN DOWN AT THE START, that way only boats that are unquestionably over at the start are given OCS.  Then your benefit to the committee will work, since you will only be given OCS if you are CLEARLY IDENTIFIED OCS.

The problem comes when members of the race team see a white bow ahead of a pack of white boats OCS, but can't read the number, the race officer follows that boat until it emerges from the pack, but mistakenly reads off another boats number.  Bow or jib numbers might resolve this.

David

A good picture in Dinghy Sailing this month of the Mirrors with a race number on the jib luff.  Why don't we try that at a couple of events next year to see if it helps, or has it already been tried?

Bill,

Can testify to the effectiveness of the mirror jib numbers having scored 3 x OCS at the 04 champs.  Vince Horey also collected a hat trick - there is nowhere to hide!

You are right - we should do it at Salcombe, but I think we are all a bit scared of doing it!

GGGGGG