2 x rigs

20/10/2010 12:57:41
Is it legal to have two rigs for the same boat that you could alternate depending on conditions.
i.e. One standard rig 21' mast and one full height 22'6"
Can't see any reason why not ?

20/10/2010 13:06:26
Andrew M
The rig dimensions form part of the measurement certificate so if the rig is changed it should be remeasured and a new certificate issued.  The reason why not is avoiding too much of an arms race with the attendant costs.  The specialist river boats that visited Hampton last weekend all had 22ft6 rigs & minimal controls there is a lot of money being spent on older boats.  Shame it didn't blow old boots from the SW like it did a couple of years ago!

21/10/2010 11:15:01
Why a shame...?

21/10/2010 11:19:30
Guidance is sought, can you not have two certificates like Dennis Conner did in 1983 for Americas' Cup? Of course two lots of fees etc.

21/10/2010 12:05:58
Andrew M
A shame because if you have 2.2m of beam & a big fat transom planing down the reach under spinny is what your boat does best & 3 tacks in 40 yards is a bit of a challenge

21/10/2010 14:33:24
Yes I'm sure you could have 2 certificates, nothing to prohibit this at the moment ?

21/10/2010 15:22:12
Andy Hay
Reading the RYA Rules ... as I cannot locate my yearbook ... so assuming that this is not in error, there is nothing specific that says that you can only have one certificate. The Rules talk about "a" certifcate or "the" certificate, indicating the certificate is intended as a singular entity.

Gut feel is that the MROA would take a dim view of multiple certificates, even if you could argue about the symantics of the wording, with Owners turning up an events with a quiver of rigs / sails, etc. and they choose the rig dependent on the conditions in play for the event.

Besides, most river sailors seem to own two boats now, one oldie (narrow) and a modern (wide) MR. Nothing at all to stop you turning up with two (or more) boats to an event and choosing between these.

21/10/2010 16:07:21
All this talk about the best river boat, tall rigs, tie breaks etc... is total B*llSh*t.  If you look at the results from the Cookham Sheild recently posted and the Tammy open result, the modern boats would appear to rule.

A win by anything else defies the odds and is due to the exceptional talent of the helmsman and crew (or extreme light conditions)...

21/10/2010 16:31:21
Hence the reason DV doesn't appear on any of these lists....

21/10/2010 16:34:39
I'm aware of several boats which have both high and normal rigs as it happens...

21/10/2010 18:11:29
do they change their jibs when they change masts?
its impossible to carry a normal sized jib 2.8? unless you shrink your foot to a ridiculously short length I sail with 2200mm ( i think) and am limited to 2.7sqm. I suspect there are a few who haven't noticed jib size is limited by the length of foot and is part of the sail area give up that is part and parcel of having a mast band at 22 ft 6" above the sheerline. it should be clearly marked on the boom as per rules and the jib size used should tally with this.
clearly I'll be checking DV's jib..........if only I could keep up with him.....rock n' roll.

21/10/2010 19:00:51
Chris M
I'm pretty sure that using a differant set of rig dimensions from the one detailed on the certificate would be illegal. This is probably a good thing as it reduces costs and most importantly is one less thing to worry about.

However what this does hilight is why we have our foot length and jib area tattood onto the boom. It means it is possible to police what rigs people are using, which in these days of standardisation is becoming very lax. Steve and I checked bands and rig labelling at the champs and requested quite a few people to refresh them. Disappointingly almost noone actually bothered.

21/10/2010 19:12:57
Two certificates fully measured was my question, different masts booms jibs and mains I cannot think you cannot make the jib(s) to whatever dimensions you wish as long as the measured area does not exceed the area on your certificate(s).
If you think someone is illegal - protest or let him retire. If they did not take your generous opportunity to get legal then again protest or let them retire, otherwise it will get laxer and laxer untill......

22/10/2010 16:28:34
DV wins everything??!!!

22/10/2010 16:30:26
I believe he is off to the Felucca...

22/10/2010 17:21:53
Hey come on Chris B'sea boats were awash with tipex :-) -- and we weren't the only ones.

22/10/2010 20:27:47
Chris M
I did say almost.

22/10/2010 22:59:50
Steve W gave me the direct order so my boom also has the tipex to prove it!

05/01/2014 22:38:24
Gareth Griffiths
What about if you have one aluminium rig for classic sailing and a carbon one for open meetings and club racing.

I have a 20 year old boat I woul like to do both in...!

06/01/2014 07:48:06
Chris M
if you stick to the same foot length/luff length/sail plan you're fine.

06/01/2014 11:59:37
Chris M: 
Sorry to ask but can you just elaborate on the above comment? (“if you stick to the same foot length/luff length/sail plan you're fine”.) I am a relative new comer to the class and whilst I was aware that rigs can very in size, I would have thought that when you switch between the short and tall rigs you would use the corresponding sails to fit? If you need two measurement certificates so be it.


06/01/2014 12:27:50
Gareth Griffiths
Cheers Chris M

I will have three rigs soon, two original Ali and soon a carbon one, and was wondering whether to get rid of both the big and deck stepped Ali or just the big stepped one.

It would be nice to sail the boat in its almost original format as well as it's modern equivalent.

06/01/2014 12:47:40
The certificate does not state mast material it is the the black band distances (boom and mast from memory). So as long as the masts black bands are the same position you are OK. If you break your mast you can always then swap it till repairs are done without getting a new certificate.

06/01/2014 19:58:35
Chris M
I think you'll find that the rule was written expressly to stop people having two rig sizes and swapping and changing as they felt appropriate.

I don't see any way to have two rig sizes measured and in use on one boat within the class rules. What other organisations may accept as "ok" is another matter of course.

07/01/2014 07:16:42
John M
It is fine to have two rigs, but as I understand it to move between them you will need to amend your certificate each time.  Apparently, in the first two weeks of the Americas Cup Oracle had a new measurement certificate every day, so you would be in good company!

07/01/2014 09:01:50
Only if the rigs were a different size, not different materials. That would be my understanding anyway.

07/01/2014 18:42:59
Chris M
Different materials is fine.

Different rig dimensions means a new certificate each time too keep the boat in class. I don't think the RYA would issue two certificates for the same boat to be valid at the same time. You can ask......

08/01/2014 09:59:19
Gareth Griffiths
If, hypothetically I had two rigs and one was rotating the other wasn't would that be ok?

08/01/2014 09:59:20
Gareth Griffiths
If, hypothetically I had two rigs and one was rotating the other wasn't would that be ok?

08/01/2014 11:30:37
It's the overall dimensions that matter that is to say the black bands nothing else.

08/01/2014 12:10:08
Barry dunning
Is it a class rule that a boat can only have one certificate? Certainly our Antipodean friends in 18's have at least two rigs.
The Merlin is a certain candidate for this system and it would add interesting discussion on the shore of an event!

08/01/2014 12:26:48
You can bet the RYA will say no! That is what they do.

08/01/2014 13:18:24
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
Class rules are pretty clear about a meaurement certificate being a singular object. The certificate is tied to the sail / hull number, so unless you could work out a way of having two sail numbers being allocated to one hull, this is probably a dead route and I am pretty sure that the Class would view this as a favourable course of events.

Of course, you could always take a double stack trailer to each event and choose your hull / rig / number depending upon the conditions and stretch of water. Nothing to stop this at all ... :-)

That said, there is also nothing to stop you having two rigs for one hull as long as the bands are in the same place. One rotating + one fixed is OK. One carbon + one ali is equally OK. Don't have to be the same section shape either (so you could have a 130mm rotating wing mast and a 45mm diameter whippy one). Of course, you'd have to have an alternative set of sails for this configuration too.

Barry - in my experience the RYA don't always say no. It just depends upon how you phrase your question .... :-)

03/08/2014 08:16:46
Gareth Griffiths NHRC
This should be in general not bits for sale...!


Your Name
YouTube Clip
Paste the link provided by youtube under the "Share" button, looks like this "http://www.youtube.com/embed/XEsrho3jqbo"
Type a Number under 32: