MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Older Boats - New Categories

Hi Everyone,

As you may be aware, the MROA committee meets frequently throughout the year and discusses all things merlin rocket related.

At the last two committee meetings, one of the main topics discussed was how best to encourage older boats to race, at their home clubs, at local open meetings, at Silver Tillers and at our larger events such as the Inland Championships and the National Championships.

The age categories have also been discussed, and decisions have been made with reference to these, that are pretty far reaching but we hope will make the categories more meaningful and therefore encourage better racing between the boats within those categories.

It was ultimately decided that these brackets should be changed (both in definition and name) to:

Classic - all boats first registered from 1985-1999 inclusive. (Sail numbers 3358 to 3571)
Vintage - All boats first registered pre-1985 (Sail numbers 3357 and below).

There were many reasons for this. The Silver Tiller this year had virtually no competition within the Mature Boats category, so by widening the bracket this makes for more inclusive racing. There was also logic to it, regarding designs and development around those years.

These bands will be used to actively encourage participation throughout the circuits, nationals, and inlands by boats that fall within these categories.

All Association trophies and those competed for at Salcombe Week that are designated for older boats will be awarded in line with these categories.

These changes will be reflected in the 2015 yearbook.

Furthermore, there will be half price entry fees at the Inland Championships (Draycote Water, October 17th and 18th) and the National Championships (Whitstable Yacht Club, 23rd-28th August) for boats that fall within either the Classic or Vintage categories.

Further to this - in response to discussions that have been occurring on this forum over the last few weeks, we have discussed a mini-series for Classic and Vintage boats within the current Silver Tiller. This would be a select group of events, probably 5 or 6, with 3 or 4 to count, with a trophy (almost certainly a Classic Tiller) and glassware to be presented. However, in order for this to be successful, we’d need to know which of the Silver Tillers, Classic boats would be encouraged to attend if this mini-series was to be promoted.

Please could people email me their thoughts on the mini-series, suggesting events that they think would be appropriate, and whether it would encourage them to attend. We’d like to see this to be a success for 2015, but we could hold this idea back to 2016 if deemed more appropriate.

I’m sure these changes will be controversial in some way, but the committee has discussed it at length and all changes have been implemented for the intended good of all of the class.

Kind regards,

Fran Gifford
Chair, MROA.
[email protected]
07810447377


Posted: 10/02/2015 15:00:34
By: Frances Gifford

Fran,

This is exciting news! Well done to the Committee for picking this up from the numerous 'prime of life' posts and looking for a positive step forward that supports the ST series and might encourage more of us to come out to play and improve event participation.

Of course, as the owner of 3571, I should be laughing; but as I am rubbish I will simply be happy to come along to a few events, learn from others and have some fun on the water!
 
In advance of the season, if anyone wants to get some practice/tuning on a great bit of open water then let me know and I'll arrange access/fees for you at WPNSA so we can hit the circuit knowing we have made some attempt to prepare.... 


Posted: 11/02/2015 20:49:10
By: Alan3571
Hi Fran

What exciting news...!

I am hoping to make both the Nationals and Inlands. Also entered Salcombe Merlin Week with 3450 the Ian Holt Niane design.

I would really like to attend some of the classic Merlin ST venues like the Thames race at Ranalegh as well as Blithfield and maybe Hamble or Hayling Island.

Most likely to do the local events at Wetmouth, Parkstone and Lime Regis.



Posted: 11/02/2015 22:03:03
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Well, I hope the helms of two very capable Mk1 Winders, fitted with full carbon rigs and rudders and one string raking systems will be overjoyed to find they are now competing in the new 'Classic' age category against the Summer Wines and NSMs of the mid 80's.  
 
I hope they do well, as it would seem on paper they might have a head start.....


Posted: 12/02/2015 22:20:12
By: Kieron Mason
I clearly have too much time on my hands today, but to extend the conversation a little further, I can't really see the logic in splitting the fleet at the point proposed by the committee and feel the need to ask for clarification.
In my opinion, the fleet should be split at a point which a distinct and identifiable change can be seen in the capability and performance of the boats we sail. Basically a change in design or technologies.  From my perspective, the development of hull shapes and rigs hasn't been linear- there have been identifiable points in the development process at which the capabilities of the boats changed measurably.  That point may be may be the first wooden CT or the first Turner composite CT, or the first Winder Mk1 but if a significant point can be identified surely that's what should be used.
 
The other consideration should be how many boats it impacts upon.  There are quite a few Mk1 Winder boats still racing around the circuit - a testament to their durability and  perhaps the fact their performance  remains for longer than most wooden boats.  There are few wooden boats that compete on the circuit and that will probably decline further, not because there aren't any prizes, but because they are old and cost a lot to repair.
 
We used our Thin Ice 3548 around the circuit and did as well as we do in the more modern Winder Mk1 - talent being the major limitation obviously!  We didn't campaign it because we wanted to win prizes, we wanted to sail with our mates.  We stopped campaigning a wooden boat because even though I do all of my own repairs, the wooden boats creak and groan when raced hard and are dragged around the country for a few seasons.  Its expensive and time consuming to keep them going.  I don't know if offering prizes will get more old boats on the circuit or not - time will tell.  I suspect that's not the limiting factor.
 
What I can say is that in my opinion its not sensible to have two identical Mk1 winders on the same course, literally made from the same mould within weeks of each other - one competing for classic prizes and the other not.  That's not a level playing field, never mind the opportunity it may deny genuinely deserving classic boats from the 80s.  
 
We should move the cut off back to before the Mk1s and leave it there. 
 
I suppose I ought to be grateful I don't have to sort out these fuzzy problems, but hopefully still allowed an opinion :) 
 
Kieron
3586
3482
3150 


Posted: 13/02/2015 13:16:44
By: Kieron Mason
I do hope people are motivated to get out sailing and this does not motivate a pot-hunting culture. I am sure the committee have put a lot of thought in to this so lets get some boats to some meetings and see how it goes. If we don't turn up then it all all have been for nowt.....
 


Posted: 13/02/2015 16:13:36
By: DaveC
Hi Fran
 
Will try to get to Inlands with 3542 (Steppenwolf) Pwllheli, Blithfield, and Loch Lomond. These are crew dependant. 
 
Why those? This might help in explaining why I am not doing every ST now 3542 is  Classic. 
Inlands, Have the time for  spare weekend, and 3450 is going 
Pwllheli, Home Club and can squeeze a few hours away.
Blithfield, Central location and again can squeeze  weekend off.
Scotland, My wife would like to go!  And the site is closed.
 
Perhaps others are in the same boat.

I'm also in agreement with Kieron, on what logic were these sail number cut offs worked out? My logic says be anything non-FRP construction is a Classic.
 
I also think, that getting more boats (older ones in particular) on the water does not equate to lets try and get them to some ST events and Chmpionships by saying we'll charge them less. Those that want to do the circuit will do so, some just can't get the time nor afford to do so (reduced price or not)

Has anyone actually contacted members with older boats directly and asked them what they want? I haven't been asked, and I know  few others who haven't either.  As I just wrote; not everyone can go to a ST meeting, either new or old boat. One event a year might be enough? To specifically include old boats. Like a classic/vintage car rally. And yes this could be The Inlands, but Winder Mk1's in the same category as a 30yr old Woody? Surely that's  not right. 

Maybe contacting all members/owners of boats directly and finding  out what would get them to gatherings is the first step.  Perhaps, just perhaps, those you need to have answers from do not follow the Forum, or use Facebook


Posted: 14/02/2015 09:42:09
By: Miles James
This will just cause more and more upset, you can't say all non FRP are classic as that Would then include SuperFast Jellyfish for example and Wicked also you would be excluding the plastic and composite NSM's etc.
There were prizes for various ages of boats and the events were always open to all but the older boats rarely turned out apart from their own event.
I have sailed two wooden boats at a variety of Nationals Inlands and ST''s and like Kieron do no better in my plastic boat than I did in the wooden ones. Which I got cause it was costing too much to sail a wooden boat at these venues and keep her looking lovely.
I get beaten by wooden boats at my home club on a regular basis.
The committee have made a decision and however you feel about it, its up to us to get out and sail, then if it needs tweaking and the committee can see who is sailing they will be in a better place to make any alterations to the format. By turning up to sail owners will be able to speak in person to the people faced with trying to sort this out on our behalf, remember they are volunteers doing this for us and need our support to make it work.


Posted: 14/02/2015 11:51:39
By: Martin Smith
Thanks for the contributions Dave, Miles and Martin - I wondered if the silence was disinterest! The worse option was this it was one of apathy I guess.
 
My motivation for raising this as an issue is that I wholeheartedly support the effort to get more prime of life boats on to the water to race against boats of a similar age and capability, (regardless of the ability of the helm!)  As Miles reminds us, the idea of getting more to ST events all over the country wasn't really central to that desire.
 
We're in the process of getting a prime of life (POL) boat ready for some events this year, a wooden CT with a fit out in line with its original spec, with a carbon mast and boom, driven as much by availability of s/h sails as anything - but importantly, something we can launch on a budget appropriate for a 19 year old helm, new to helming Merlins and presumably to be encouraged as the next generation of our class.  Under the new rules, the POL boats need to beat boats built up to 15 years later, costing perhaps £4000 more, built from vastly different materials and using more modern technologies, which isn't a level playing field. So no real benefit for the vast majority of POL boats at all, and its hard to see who will benefit in that category.  
 
If people were motivated by trophies, the early MK1 FRP boats are going to become quite desirable in the 'Classic' category and maybe even sought after!. To get into the prizes, our project boat 3482 will need to beat its way past MK1 FRP boats in the 'Classic' fleet - identical to the one I'l helm this year in the 'Other' fleet, but bizarrely not classified as a Classic.
 
Looking at the three boats we have, the Smokers 3150 won't see any change under the new rules. Perhaps non was intended.  For the wooden CT 3482 winning a prize just got further away.  For me in 3586, prizes I may have qualified for have disappeared - it honestly doesn't bother me - it is a bit irksome that other identical boats are eligible though!  When I look at the new classification its hard to see who benefits - and the proverbial playing field looks much less even than it did.
 
Fundamentally I loathe the current trend for 'everyone who shows up should win something' attitude.  My 'prize' is sharing the water with some truly exceptional and inspirational people and its a real pleasure to learn from them.
 
Let's reward older boats with a prize for furthest traveled, 1,2,3 wooden hull, ally rig etc, but on the same racecourse and scorecard as everyone else.  Tweak the number system by all means but it ought to be based on the capability of the boats as they were built, and not on an arbitrary date of manufacture. I'l be on the water this year and will compete to the best of my ability, but I'm more inclined to retire from the races to make a point - I really don't buy in to the proposed new splits. 
 
I should add I do support the committee, and congratulate them for their work - very much appreciated, but trust that the forum can stand an honestly held opinion being discussed. 


Posted: 14/02/2015 17:16:00
By: Kieron Mason
Guys I think that though the decisions are not perfect in everyone's opinion. They are a start and a grand effort by the committee to make those of us with good looking boats feel included. Something I think we are all grateful for their consideration.

How about we all see how the season goes and we all give big feed back to Fran and everyone through the season and after to make next season even better...?

I agree with the excellent points that everyone has raised but I also think we all understand that an immediate decision that pleases everyone is not so easy.

I am really looking forward to seeing as many of you as possible on the race course this season.


Posted: 14/02/2015 22:45:37
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
I think the important thing here is to encourage boats who otherwise wouldn't to attend events and come sailing. If you look back at the boats that have been attending meetings in last few years the mid-late 90's boats (Including Winder placcies) have been slowly disappearing, which makes the new bands representative of what is currently happening within the class. This is further demonstrated by the number of times prizes down to third in the "old" category have been not awarded across most series/events. There is no point in having prizes that nobody wins.
 
This does not help the owners of Morrison era and older boats, granted. But as i've been saying for a while now, we haven't really seen any for years and years despite multiple attempts to bribe them out with prizes. It just doesn't work and in general the people who own them are not interested in travelling. The vast majority are not members of the MROA - a guide to how interested people are NOT an indication that we shouldn't bother with them! (And before anyone says it I don't believe that a large proportion of non members are conscientious objectors!)
 
I'll say again, the way to change this, if people with "proper" old boats are interested, is to join the MROA if they are not members and then come to events and generate a presence. If enough people did that we would't need age categories or fleets, the racing would be good whatever boat you're sailing  and everyone would be happy.
 
Gareth is right, we need to run with it for this year. If people aren't happy come sailing, have a beer with us and admonish us at the bar. By doing that you've shown intent and commitment, you'll be speaking to us in person and you're generally more likely to drive a change than posting on here or sending emails - not that the forum isn't listened to, but we could make massive changes based on feedback on here and then those that gave the feedback might not bother to turn up. We do, i think, need to see some form of commitment if people want to change the way this works. It sounds like we might this year based on other topics.


Posted: 15/02/2015 08:43:38
By: Chris Martin
Chris please do not get me wrong, this decision is a step in the correct direction. The logic between two MK1's being classic and non classic is my real question. There is obviously some logic behind it,but what is it?

I will attend and show a presence when I can. 


Posted: 15/02/2015 10:01:53
By: Miles
3550 and 3551 at Lymington Perishers this week, hopefully 3450 to race next week...! Maybe 3482 terabyte too..

If you fancy it I think you can join in, we have had a few guests..



Posted: 15/02/2015 20:42:50
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Hi Chris,
 
I'm with Miles on this - I know we've only just parted after a good sail this afternoon, but I'm still without an adequate explanation of how the Mk1 FRP boats are lumped into the new 'Classic' category, and even more perplexing, how some are 'Classic' and some aren't. I've counted 10 built in 1999 who qualify for 'classic' status.  A sensible distinction must be based on a design and not an age? A proposal for change would have been a good agenda item for the AGM, or a digital /postal ballot to the membership.
 
Surely if a decision has been made by the committee elected to make decisions for us, we ought to be able to ask for a clear and rational account of what was taken into consideration and why the distinction was made on age rather than the design or technology employed. As nice as it would be, not everyone can make it up to the bar at Blithfield to have a chat about committee decisions that require further explanation - its a national association with access to the digital technology that makes communication so easy so why not use it.  I like the chats at the bar, but I also like to read the views of a wider range of people.
 
In my opinion, the old POL category was fine, if there was an appetite to extend it to an earlier date that would have been fine too. Its where the split has been made which is the issue, or more to the point, a rationale for the decision.
 
Gareth, I see your sentiments but there has always been an open invitation to attend these events and I think there were always prizes so long as people turned up and sailed. I'm all for inclusivity, but I fear we are messing around a system that worked well to accommodate one or two boats that will turn out for one or two events a year. Not that there's anything wrong with that  of course.  If a lot of people had been turning up but not winning much that's one thing, but that hasn't been happening. I will be really pleased if the new categories change that situation, but suspect they won't.  
  
The changes proposed effect a lot of boats that have supported the regional circuits and ST events for years. I may be a vocal minority or everyone else may just be too disenchanted to bother.
 
So, I'll look forward to seeing people in bars and on the water around the country in their 'Classic' Winders :)
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted: 15/02/2015 20:59:52
By: Kieron Mason
And of course, where is the feedback from all the members with these 'non modern' boats? There only seems to be about 5 of us discussing anything. 


Posted: 16/02/2015 11:04:31
By: Miles
Kieron,

You asked for some explanation for the committee’s rationale on the changes in the categorisation systems.

Firstly, I think it might be useful to address the thinking around why the old bands were no longer fit for purpose, or even a bit misleading:

* The old ‘Old-boat’ category was going to include Winder Mk4s this year, which we really didn’t feel was reasonable on the older ‘Old-boats’
* ‘Prime-of-life’ is rather misleading as the term traditionally suggests when something is at its peak power and performance – in humans, this is about the age of your average professional sportsman/woman; in Merlins, this is probably actually when they are brand new
* ‘Mature-boat’ category (as Fran said) was a virtually empty category in itself so ineffective in encouraging sub-set racing

Hence, the decision was taken to amalgamate the categorisations that are not ‘Vintage’ and not ‘Modern’ into a larger group to promote a significant / meaningful pool of people to sail against each other in this sub-set. As has been asked previously, what’s the point in winning a race of 1?

You asked about the banding that has been chosen for the new boundaries:

Vintage / Classic boundary (1985): the Vintage section is well defined, but it was also felt that it needed capping at the NSM2-4 evolution (there were only ever 2 NSM3s, neither particularly successful); this is when off wind performance took a significant step forward – essentially, on a 3 sail reach an NSM2 will not keep up with an NSM4 (or other similar era designs from the late 1980s), whereas an NSM4 is not a million miles off an early Tales, etc.

Classic / Modern boundary (2000): yes, the influence of the Winder Mk1s was a factor in marking this cut-off date, and some of them have snuck in there. This said, would encouraging a few more plastic Merlins that were built in the last century really be a bad thing? Frankly, sailing ability should still decide the results; a well sailed wooden Tales or NSM4 should beat a less well sailed Winder Mk1. And there is a strong argument to say that picking by materials or builder rather than age seems a bit nit-picky / unreasonable.

The important thing is to try and get more people out sailing and test the new system out… It sounds to me like Gareth & co have the right idea of getting out there and getting on with it. If adjustments are required, then I’m sure they’ll be considered and made where necessary.

Regards,

Tim


Posted: 16/02/2015 11:17:26
By: Tim
I agree with Tim .... "the important thing is to try and get people out sailing and test the new system out" Lets do just that!
 
We can look at tweeking the categories after we have some results to review, lets not worry about a poteintial boat/team that may be optimised to win what is a minor trophy -  good luck to them!! Just enjoy the events the racing and the company and if you can scare the odd new boat once in a while then that's a bonus and part of the fun. Me I like to think I'm racing everyone - isn't that the idea??


Posted: 16/02/2015 13:33:04
By: DaveC
Thanks for the explanation Tim, much appreciated (and I do see the logic there). 
 


Posted: 16/02/2015 17:45:53
By: Miles
I think the main mighty point that the committee could use to push this band is as an entry level Merlin band.

You can buy a well built probably well maintained Merlin from the 80s or 90s for under £2k. A mk1 Winder for less than £5k and both boats are great for finding your feet in the class at club level and a bit of the traveling circus...

The class is successful at the new boat level, pushing at this level could boost membership.

Just look at the fantastic events on offer like Salcombe Week and the Silver Tiller. Huge participation that we would all like to increase.

Miles and myself can both show you how you can take a boat that many thought good for the skip and turn it back into a superb and fun dinghy.. In many cases a real stunner.

We are preserving the history of the classes development, we are possibly re-discovering avenues that weren't pushed commercially on a design level by restoring weight carriers for us fatties... ;-p

At Lymington this weekend we will have the Jacki built 3551 Honeymoon design, the last Roswell Tales 3550 and the fat boy Tales/Niane design all racing against a few Winders too...

There is a lot we are excited about, all over the country. Hopefully there will be many benefits, not just by making the fleet look a bit prettier with some awesome woodwork, but maybe help to generate a few new designs to rival the one design boats.


Posted: 16/02/2015 18:12:13
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
  Its great that we're doing something to encourage the older boats,only issue I see is, as Keiron says,the winder 1s,many are not anymore, are now one strung,the first second and third are also hull modded,to mk3/4 shape, still super stiff, loads of correctors and very competitive on the main circuit.....they travel anyway.....just my thoughts ......


Posted: 16/02/2015 20:27:22
By: d.h.
Have the committee considered adding another age category? 
As the class gets older with new materials extending a boats life, the older boat age categories will include more and more boats making it difficult to put said boats in one of two categories.
As any boat hits 10 years old, 99% of them fail to be championship contenders anymore, regardless of how good a condition the hull is due to being plastic. They require a lot of time, money and effort to get back to their best, which 99% of people won't do, hence failing into an old boat category.
In my opinion, there should be another age category for the Winder era to include all the Winder boats that are 10 years plus. 
Thoughts?


Posted: 17/02/2015 12:31:45
By: Olly Turner
Hi Olly,
 
I think the problem the class is trying to solve is that there are many 20 and 30 years old boats about that are still very serviceable and excellent racing dinghies which are not turning up to events; most of the ten-year-old boats are still very active. Perhaps these ten-year-olds are not out and out championship contenders but they are certainly open meeting contenders in the right hands.
 
Dave


Posted: 17/02/2015 17:13:56
By: DaveC
Surely you need to encourage all boats over 10 years so wouldn't it be better to have an extra trophy rather than exclude many club sailors that have a ten year old boat?
 
10 year old boats sailed by the right person can do well and shows other classes that you don't have to buy a brand new boat to win.
 
The consenses outside of the class is that  you need brand new kit to do well if you feel 10 year boats are going to start winning prizes then that has to be a good thing for the class.
 
I agree with encouraging vintage boats as an extra and not to take away something that has always worked in the past. 
 
 
 


Posted: 17/02/2015 18:12:50
By: club sailor with older boat
Surely you need to encourage all boats over 10 years so wouldn't it be better to have an extra trophy rather than exclude many club sailors that have a ten year old boat?
 
10 year old boats sailed by the right person can do well and shows other classes that you don't have to buy a brand new boat to win.
 
The consenses outside of the class is that  you need brand new kit to do well if you feel 10 year boats are going to start winning prizes then that has to be a good thing for the class.
 
I agree with encouraging vintage boats as an extra and not to take away something that has always worked in the past. 
 
 
 


Posted: 17/02/2015 18:38:48
By: club sailor with older boat
Fran 
 
At the risk of ridicule, another twopenneth
 
Apart from changing the age of classic boats,has anything been decided about handicaps for different ages and designs?
 
I had my first Merlin way back in 1972, a IXb I could race against brand new Phantom Kippers,  MoonRockets et al and still beat them even though my boat was some 15 years older.  That and the beauty of the boat is what attracted me to the class. This cannot be done these days, you need post CT design if you want to enter the class and win, yes even at club level.
 
If you sail a Merlin Rocket, the least you want is a chance to be able to win a race in it. It is not just about when a boat become a classic, any newcomer to the class needs to know he is competitive.
 
 
 


Posted: 17/02/2015 19:21:14
By: Miles
Sorry Miles, I can't let that one pass.  I have been sailing Merlins since 1961 (No 575 Mk V1) and can say categorically that a 1Xb had no chance at sea against the wide Merlins such as Wotnot, Satisfaction (both of which I owned) etc.  I did the Silver Tiller (& championships) circuit very seriously from 1973 - 75 and the problem for me then was the arms race of development.  I just could not afford to keep up with a new boat every year.  My Satisfaction was outdated almost as soon as it was built by the arrival of the Smokers.  The beauty and strength of the class now is the stability of designs and build quality.  My present boat is nearly 9 years old and is as competitive now as it was when new.  That would certainly not have been the case forty years ago.
 
Incidentally the original CT sailed in the champs at Whitstable in 1989 - that's 26 years ago. Not bad longetivity for a Merlin design.


Posted: 17/02/2015 21:44:57
By: JC
Miles, you should take a trip to Hampton, Tamesis, Upper Thames, Cookham etc - 50 and 60 year old boats are the ones to beat there!  :-)


Posted: 18/02/2015 08:34:33
By: DaveC
DaveC, I would love to get to Hampton, Tamesis Upper Thames etc.  I am to just too far away for weekend jaunts and my 'time off' is in winter months, I'm too old for freezing water, so is the boat.
 
JC I stand by what I said. It  was a long time ago, and my skill level and fitness a lot higher than they are now and I was the Schools Sailing Association Champion (today's RYA Youth Squad sort of thing), but I regularly beat Phantom Kippers, Moonrockets and the like, on the sea in my IXb. The original Ghost Rider was the killer, you could only get in front of  that if it stopped! 
 
Handicap wise the boat was still competitive, at least until the RYA started dropping the handicap. I dare say a IXb on it's original handicap against a modern merlin on the current handicap, would give an interesting result. Which is really what prompted me to ask the question regarding handicaps.
 
Any Champions with a race prepared IXb  willing to take on a Modern Merlin on handicap?  No, because that is a ludicrous idea. Unfortunately it is the only way that old designs are going to win anything in club handicap racing.
  
Older Merlins might start to increase in value and desirability if they are seen once again as club race winners.  


Posted: 18/02/2015 09:27:16
By: Miles

  I have said elsewhere in this post - but so far no body has picked up on the point - that if old boats are to be competitive in club handicap fleets where many of them race then the age related handicaps  need to be uncoupled from the ever falling figure for the new boats and frozen to represent the lack of development - My NSM 3 has got no faster since I purchased it and yet the class historic yardstick, which my club  is happy to use, has dropped me a minute last year and who knows what this year when the new figures are published.

When this was debated on the forum last year those with experience in this produced a list of what they thought was appropriate age related handicaps but nothing seemed to come of it. I recall that if those figures were applied now I would be sailing off 103 not 101. That's quite a difference. 
 



Posted: 18/02/2015 16:17:38
By: Edward 3340
Hi Everyone,
 
Thanks to all for their comments and emails of which there have been many.  Thanks to Tim for explaining our logic, I was struggling to articulate it, partly due to my slightly lower longevity in the class than others on the committee.  There are many valid concerns that have been raised, including the split of Winder Mark 1s.
 
These changes have come about as a result of a couple of key factors:
 
1. Attendance at events, particularly the Silver Tiller and Inlands by "older boats" has been low in recent years.  We know there are hundreds of these merlins around and we are trying to encourage the owners to attend events where large numbers of merlins race against each other in fleet racing.
 
2. The old categories were not optimal.  Next year 3676 would have been "Prime of Life" and is a Mark 4 Winder, the same as 3684 which won the ST series this year.  The "Mature boat" category had virtually no boats competing in the Silver Tiller last year.  Only one qualified.  Within the new "Classic" category, although the range of designs within the category is bigger, well sailed regular attendees can certainyl be optimistic that they will be vying for the glassware at the end of the season.
 
We are discussing subsidiary trophies raced for at the major events and the Silver Tiller.  It is hoped that this will not detract from the competition where we see between 15 and 120 merlins racing like for like in fleet racing on extremely varied types of venue.  I would hope that would be a significant attraction for sailors of merlins of all ages (boats and sailors).
 
In relation to the proposed mini-series, as one respondent said - "you'll probably get as many suggestions as you get people suggesting" this is true.  But I'm hoping there is a means of addressing this, and I will be circulating the ideas to the committee over the next few days.  It may be that we roll this over to the 2016 series, but I'm still optimistic that we can do something for 2015.  I do however acknowledge that the later we leave this the harder it is for people to plan their season.
 
In response to Miles' post we are extremely keen that the circuit does not become handicap racing.  This was also discussed at a recent committee meeting and it was agreed that one of the (many) major attractions of the class is its open meeting circuit, with strong turnouts and the level of racing throughout a large un-handicapped fleet race.
 
The yearbook (coming out imminently) details the recommended PY adjustments for merlins club racing in a mixed handicap fleet.  These were also discussed recently and it was agreed that they do not require changing.  This is reviewed regularly.
 
To address Olly's point, while (only) ten year old boats are winning STs, coming 2nd at Salcombe Week and top ten at the Nationals, I'm not of the personal opinion that they require separate subsidiary trophies.  They may require some extra effort to remain competitive, but they certainly are competitive as demonstrated by results.
 
I will also look forward to discussing it further throughout the season, including the Dinghy Show, the AGM and many sailing club bars throughout the season.  There may be the occasional moment at a sailing club bar that I might like to talk about something else, maybe the sailing, or something completely different, but in general I'm happy to talk about all things merlin related.
 
Additionally, I would point out that the committee, as elected at the AGM, does its utmost to make the best possible decisions for the benefit of its membership, to keep the class strong, which in turn keeps the racing great and the market healthy.  There are often vacancies on the committee, indeed there are now, so if anyone would like to contribute their own time, experience and enthusiasm, and possibly represent a section of the class that may be under-represented then please do get in touch.
 
Looking forward to a great season.  I do hope we see more Classics out racing.
 
Kind regards,
 
Fran
Chair, MROA
07810446377


Posted: 18/02/2015 17:23:23
By: Frances Gifford
Why not just run subsidiary handicap results for boats in the classic and vintage categories? It's right and proper for a development class to be first over the line, but this isn't the case for classic fleets. IMHO people like to see how they are doing relative to others on the results sheet, and with Winders against NSM 2s etc there isn't much incentive to turn up with an NSM 2? 

No system is perfect, but the more you can let people see quantifiably how they are getting on relative to other, particularly faster, boats, the more they will feel like turning up. Lumping vastly different boats together with no sense of 'equalization' isn't very encouraging perhaps, especially if your boat is at the older and slower end of the banding.

Or just come up to Scotland where we run results both on line and handicap! ;-) 

Andy (NSM 1, 3236)


Posted: 25/02/2015 10:43:33
By: Andy
Andy,
 
I think the handicaps are are fine for club events and DeMay etc but  I agree with Fran that they have no place in the Silver Tiller series. I too am sailing an old boat but this is my personal choice, I like wodden boats, think they are nicer to sail and at times, in light winds on restricted water for example are faster. I wouldn't expect or want any special treatment in a major open-water meeting - just my view :-)
 
Dave (MR 3165 previously 3508 & 2373)


Posted: 25/02/2015 11:10:27
By: DaveC
I agree with Andy
 
 
"the more you can let people see quantifiably how they are getting on relative to other, particularly faster, boats, the more they will feel like turning up. Lumping vastly different boats together with no sense of 'equalization' isn't very encouraging perhaps, especially if your boat is at the older and slower end of the banding."
 
And it does not have to be a Silver Tiller or Championship. Just an event.  This is one of reasons Steppenwolf will be travelling, to pace herself against "Andy's fleet". 


Posted: 25/02/2015 14:08:35
By: Miles
I agree with Andy too...! That would be a great incentive for us and I am sure others would agree too.

5 points per decade works well in Lymington.


Posted: 26/02/2015 15:53:07
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC

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