As I understand it, the DeMay Series was intended for 'vintage' Merlin Rocket racing:
'vintage' being defined as any boat over 30 years old – or, more
specifically, any boat with a sail number which was originated over
30 years ago. The wording of the rule has allowed a new boat which
has a qualifying sail number and which looks like a 30 year old boat
(narrow beam, wood, varnish etc) to compete in the series. I say
'apparently' because the DeMay rules appear to be secret: my
enquiries of Mervyn Allen, who runs the series, drew a refusal to
communicate with me. Mervyn – can you clarify?
The facts are that an old boat has been replaced by a boat to a different design (a
modernised 'Passing Cloud') but managed to pass the scrutiny of the
RYA because (a) a couple of parts of the original boat (the hog and a
deck beam?) were utilised in the new boat, (b) the old boat was
replaced by a new boat of similar 'vintage' appearance (but of a
different design as indicated above) and (c) the MR Class Rules were
vague and/or ambiguous on the subject of 'rebuilds' of an existing
boat versus what constitutes a new boat. The RYA of course could only
act on the class rules as they are, not as one may wish them to be.
The MROA Committee has been aware of the above circumstances for two years but has taken
no initiatives on the matter. So now we have a race-winning new
boat which is competing very successfully in its chosen environment
('river sailing'), against boats of 30+ years vintage and even
against the newer boats. This will be good news for the few remaining
traditional boatbuilders in the class because an opportunity has been
created to build new wooden boats to an acknowledged fast river boat
design and yet which can still qualify as a vintage boat and be
eligible for the 'vintage boat' prizes.
I am unsure where this leaves the genuine vintage boats, though. Some owners have said
'what's the problem?' and others have been so outraged that they have
sold their boats and left the class. So I think we can say that the
circumstances are contentious and even divisive. Yet the MROA
Committee has no policy on this matter, even though the majority
of MROA members own vintage boats.
In the absence of any official initiative, I am considering drafting two rule changes,
which of course have to be proposed and voted on at the MROA AGM
(held during Salcombe Week)  – one to confirm that rebuilding any
existing boat to any other design is OK, and an opposite one to
disallow such actions. Note that rule changes require 2/3rds of those
present to vote in favour. (Maybe both proposals would fail to
achieve the necessary majority, or a quorum may not be achieved, or,
worse still, it may be kicked into touch by being referred to a
special sub-committee – then where would that leave us?). And, with
all due respect to the attendees, how many of those voting would be
vintage boat owners, or even interested in vintage boats?
As we have the technology, perhaps it is time to democratise the class
and introduce electronic voting on issues currently decided at an
AGM, so that the silent majority of the MROA membership can have its
voice. (Note: proposals of this kind have been put forward  several
times since 1970, but the AGM attendees have always declined to grasp the nettle).
Which leads me on to my final point:
Another course of action for mainstream vintage boat owners might be to let the deMay
series do what it will, and create a new series for all 'old' boats
but to a different set of rules: for example, the class rules
pertaining at the time of original registration of the boat must be
adhered to (so no non-woven sails, no carbon spars), with perhaps
some additional rules to reduce costs such as prohibition of raking
rigs and windward sheeting mainsheet hoops. This series could be
under the auspices of the MROA or it could be quite separate.  Any
suggestions?
For further background on the 'new/old boat' issue, see the 'Vintage
Merlin' thread on this Forum at
http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/index.asp?selection=New20%Forum&fid=12&tid=6391 or (as this link does not appear to work|) look at the VINTAGE MERLIN thread under the 'class history' category on the Forum. 
 

Now here's a question. I have 950, a 1959 boat. In order to get more use out of the boat on windy days I have put reefing points into an old main and use them, especially when 'cruising' single handed. 
 
Does that mean that the sail is no longer 'to measurement'???
 
To be honest, I don't really care but it would be nice to know...

Keith it really is time to let this one go.
 
The Association have looked at it - no rules exist to regulate the reconstruction of a boat and therefore no rules have been broken.
 
The RYA have (At the MROA's request) looked at it - no rules have been broken.
 
The original post does not tell the whole story and after much time, effort and deliberation by various volunteers and the RYA The conclusion reached is that the boat in question is in. End of story.
 
 If you want to write a rule regulating how boats can be reconstructed it may be helpful in the future, however I wish you the very best of luck writing one that can be effectively enforced. If you want to discuss that on here you are of course free to do so, but it will help your case if your posts are factual and fair to people who have spent considerable time trying to sort this out. The original post is not entirely.
  

Michael - you are allowed to reef. Having a smaller sail is within the rules; just not a bigger one!

 I do not have any solution to offer, but it is clear from the long history of these posts that Keith is one of the few who cares, and would like to do something about a perceived problem.
That's the trouble in almost all walks of English life no one has time or wants to make time to care.
A bit od passion does no harm.
 
Good luck Keith. 
 

Mags,
 
Many thanks for the reply, I'm new to this Merlin malarky and frankly don't really understand what I've got myself into. Seems to be a lot going...
 
Once I have worked out how to make best use of the boat a little competitive spirit might just start to reveal itself! 

 Chris, can you expand on your comment "The original post does not tell the whole story "? Note that much of the story is contained in another thread, for which I have given a link. Anyway, it seems that no-one else wants to tell the story, least of all anyone on the MROA Committee, so I'm having a go, as I think that new boats winning vintage boat prizes is an important issue that the entire membership should know about and, hopefully, discuss.
Thanks for wishing me luck with the drafting of an effective rule. From the sentiments expressed, I guess that you and /or others have had a go and not succeeded. So how about this:
 


1. Small alterations to the original design lines of existing hulls are allowed. The onus is on the builder
to prove that a rebuilt boat is consistent with the original design lines
within a tolerance acceptable to the MROA Chief Measurer.
2. In the event that no design is stated on the measurement certificate, it shall be assumed that the original
design is as stated in a MROA Yearbook contemporary to the date of original
manufacture/registration.
3. A builder intending to carry out a rebuild of the hull of an existing MR which potentially may result
in a change of hull shape must notify the class chief measurer before building
commences, explaining the modifications in detail (providing original and new
section drawings etc). The chief measurer may permit the rebuild if it is
deemed to be consistent with the lines of the original design. The lines
submission and full details of the proposed modifications shall be made
available to all MROA members.
4. If the proposed rebuild is not permitted, then the builder may nonetheless build the hull and obtain a
new sail number upon measurement and registration in the normal way.

And Chris - please tell me which parts of the original post were not factual.

Interesting thread Keith

Is the modernised "Passing Cloud" design also in the vintage category? Using your 30 years vintage class definition.

 Gareth, I'm not sure what you mean by your question: it is boats that are 'vintage' by dint of age. The Passing Cloud design was originated by Jack Holt circa 1960, but there is nothing to stop a new boat being built to that design (apart from designer's copyright privileges, which last for 70 years after the designer's death, but, having said that, many MRs have been built without the designer being acknowledged by payment of a design royalty! But that's another can of worms.). 
Is that tea you are drinking? You seem to be enjoying it!

Keith i'll deal with the second post first:
 
"The MROA Committee has been aware of the above circumstances for two years but has taken
no initiatives on the matter"
 
This both wrong and an insult to those who have spent time communicating with either yourself, the builder or the RYA. The MROA has done everything asked of them that is within their power. You should be well aware of this, therefore posting such a statement is, in my opinion, completely out of order.
 
The boat in question is not alone in having had major reconstruction work and design alteration. It may be the most extensive but this kind of work has been a feature of the class since the word go. Neither is it the only vintage boat to have undergone such work.
 
We, or a least some factions, seem to be heading for a very British problem - equipping yourself with the best tools to do a job and winning, it's just not the done thing is it? I notice no mention has been made anywhere of the boat being well sailed. 
 
There seem to be two sects of vintage boat owners. The differing ways in which they prepare and equip their boats may not be compatible, but this doesn't mean that there isn't room for both of them. There are after all plenty of boats out there. 
 
Writing rules.
 
I can't see an effective and enforceable way around this kind of issue, and i think if you try and plug the hole matters could be made worse. I'm happy to be proven wrong.  

Hi Keith 

Yeah great cuppa.

I was just wanting to know more about the debate.

Thanks for clearing it up.

 Chris, I stand by my original statement. No insult was intended but I have a full email 'audit trail' of the correspondence between myself and the relevant MROA committee members and that backs up the opinion expressed in my post. So I reject your accusation of being "out of order". And it was not the MROA committee that got the RYA to inspect the boat in question, but a MROA member - a class measurer. 
When does 'extensive reconstruction' become a 'completely new and different boat' in your book?
 I agree with your statement: "There seem to be two sects of vintage boat owners. The differing ways in which they prepare and equip their boats may not be compatible, but this doesn't mean that there isn't room for both of them. There are after all plenty of boats out there." 
 
But I still haven't seen any logical case for awarding a vintage boat prize to a new boat!
 
 

 Hi everybody,
 
A very interesting debate and I support Keith's point of view 100%.
 
Its all associated with the spirit of the thing. I imagine vintage boats are sailed by the less "fast and furious" but more by those who wish to have a jolly days sailing and a pleasant evening in the bar discussing the graceful competitive abilities of these boats of yesteryear. It obviously creates a little disappointment if the winner of the vintage class trophies is often the winner of a modernized vintage boat which could never have had such performance if it really was a true boat of yesteryear.
 
So it comes down to sensibility and fair play. Loopholes - you may say - are there to be exploited and so owners of true vintage boats should then meddle with the structures, sailing mechanisms and adhesives to get a "hotted up" version of their craft. But then such "vintage boats" lose their charm, delight and authenticity don't they ?
 
Keith, to my mind, appreciates the "spirit" of the MROA and what it is really all about. He is seeking to bring the MROA rules (and not only) into the 21st century and making them better in this spirit. In some way the delight and enthusiasm of older Merlin Rocket owners should be conserved so that after such regattas a good time is had by all, which, if I am not wrong, is what all this is about.
 
And so yes, some kind of regulation or handicapping  should be introduced to enable everyone to fairly enjoy sailing these beautiful boats and sharing in the success of a truly able winner. - It's the spirit of the thing guys, the spirit of the thing.
 
 

To be honest I supported the view too, until i actually saw the boat. 
 
The only thing about it that is not vintage is the rig. It is wooden (ply) construction, all varnished, no carbon, foam or glass whatsoever in the structure. It has a front buoyancy tank which is not original (But this could be retrofitted to any boat relatively inexpensively, or a relatively easy job via DIY). I'm not going to comment on the extent of renovation, this is thought to be well known although the only person who really knows is the guy who did it - this goes for each and every renovation not just this one be the boat vintage, old or nearly new (And it has been done to examples of all over the years!)
 
Rules.
 
They can be looked at, though making a watertight ruling to police this kind of work is a challenge to say the least. The example quoted would not get my vote as it's too ambiguous and i'm pretty sure the boat this is aimed at would get past the first part of the proposed rule. No design is listed and no plans for the supposed original shape exist so what chance does the chief measurer have? How do you define a small alteration? What happens if someone does the work on the quiet? In those circumstances how do you prove that the boat isn't the same as it was as built? The same designs built by different builders (or even the same design, same builder, different boat!!) are known to differ over the years. Shifting the burden of proof doesn't really help and if all of a sudden you have to go to the RYA to start a restoration project that goes beyond a redeck and varnishing i can see Guy Fawkes night having an almost never ending source of firewood. I suspect noone wants that.
If we make rules that make the restoration of vintage boats impractical then they will enter short supply very rapidly. A knee jerk reaction to one boat that crosses a line in the view of a small minority of people (In my experience of this matter, most of those who have actually seen the boat have no problem with it) is not what we need. If changes are to be made they need to be done and written properly and actually solve the problem that we have. It would help if we knew what that problem is and in this instance i'm not sure that we do. 
 
From the association point of view i think most us actually have some sympathy with Keith's intent but object rather strongly to the way in which it is being put across, especially in light of the trouble gone to try and sort it out.

 Chris, I agree with you that drafting a suitable rule to ban new boats taking on the guise of an old boat is difficult. 
You have correctly highlighted some problems with my initial proposal and you say
" If changes are to be made they need to be done and written properly and actually solve the problem that we have. It would help if we knew what that problem is and in this instance i'm not sure that we do."
 
Well, the problem is that under the current rules a new boat has been awarded prizes for which only boats over 30 years old can qualify. I have suggested 2 options: either allow it explicitly or ban it. I don't pretend to have defined the best 'banning' rule above, but in the absence of any initiative from the MROA committee I thought I would have a go. Any positive suggestions for amendments will be gratefully accepted!
 
My fear is that if nothing is done many of the 'silent majority' of members (those who own old Merlin Rockets) will lose interest in the MROA and vote with their feet. Hence my call for electronic voting methods, which would enfranchise the majority of members i.e. those who cannot/do not make it to Salcombe.. 

I seem to say the same thing in every difficult forum thread, year after year: This problem cannot be unique to the Merlins! What do other classes do?
 
 
Has no-one ever rebuilt an old Twelve and changed the shape? Has there not been a rebuilt Firefly winning a vintage series? Are the I14 classic events not as much of an arms race?
 
And can someone please look up the rule that Lloyds (ship register) use to define whether a rebuilt boat is old or new. That seems to have been working well for the past century, no?

 Mags,
 
as you know (because your get first sight of the draft copy) this is something of s specialist topic for me. I am not in the position to be judgemental and say what is right or wrong, so I will just answer your question. 
 
By a long way (ages before the 14s and 12s started thinking along these lines) the Merlin Rocket class were keen to look after boats that were no longer competitive. This is not just when the wide boats replaced the narrow Proctors and Holts, but as recently as the early 1990s when suddenly it was the early Morrisons that were now off the pace. Even as recently as that, the class put great stock in being a 'broad church' that was there for ALL merlin sailors and their boats - and as such, set the example for others to follow - except that now, other classes are starting to look and say "not like them". New and upcoming classic fleets, such as the classic Moths, are simply getting it right. Your boat should be legal 'as was' when it was registered
 
Instead, we have a 'pick and mix' approach to the rules, where the best bits are taken and the rest ignored. I have a very nice picture of Terrapin, Merlin 36 (this is the boat that took Ian Proctor to 3rd place in the 1946 Nationals) yet the boat is sporting a brand new suit of sails from Mike Mac, complete with a quadrilateral main, set on a 25ft mast. No wonder some of these old beauties are quick, they're carrying about 15% more sail area than anyone else. Interestingly, further back, is a newer boat (but still an old one) but with an early Proctor mast, 2 sets of diamonds and a pin head sail. Now is that right?  
 
The Merlin Rockets have come up with an approach that says "if it measures now, it is okay". Fine - that is only fair.  But how can  you then say "well the mast measured in 1950, so that is also okay, and by the way, the sail fits between the black bands so that is okay too, so everyone is happy". But, as this thread has shown, sadly, not everyone IS happy.
 
If you take the latest situation to it's logical conclusion, I could, if I so wished, quite rightly say that I have a bit of George O'Brian Kennedy's Merlin number 75 'Mercury'.  This was a smooth skinned boat. Back in  1947, there was no maximum beam rule, rise of floor was measured differently, so you could, if you so wish, build an 8ft beam, smooth skinned boat in carbon (because back then the rules did not say you couldn't) and step a 25ft carbon stick and say, "hey guys, look at this, I've rebuilt Mercury"
(and best of all, with a sail number below 500, I'd get +90 added ONTO the handicap, you know, this is sounding better by the minute. 
 
Is it any wonder that with the 505s planning on hosting a 'classic Worlds' along aside their main event in 2016, that I've been asked to help frame the eligibility criteria so that they don't get into this sort of muddle.
 
But surely it is not beyond us to create room for both! The superb work that has gone on along the Thames is a great credit to the class and should be encouraged - I'm pretty sure that we all agree on that (if I lived near the Thames I'd have one for sure) . But somewhere, somehow, there also has to be a place for those boats, be they oldies, not quite so old (Ghost Riders, hexagons, Kippers and the like), the Winderboxes and Disguys, the NSMs right up to the 'prime of life' boats, to be sailed, with a far greater degree value placed on originality. After all, these boats are an important part of our heritage and, when all is said and done, are all Merlin Rockets!
 
Dougal 

 This is a serious issue and I know that the class association IS losing members because of it. Standing orders have been cancelled and others won't be renewing because of it and that's just in our part of Wessex. Therefore it has to be addressed by the association.
If I took the chassis off a 1960s Mini and put all new parts and bodywork on it and the engine of a modern mini would I be able to win prizes as a vintage Mini?
Keith is right to try to sort it from within the class in a democratic manner.

I heard a little story yesterday from someone who went to the classic revival at Bosham. He's a good sailor in an old boat, slightly pimped up but not over the top (Newish alloy rig/sails). He'd never been to one of these events before and he left the event feeling he was made most unwelcome. This, coupled with this thread to a small extent and certainly the tone of the discussion that has taken place on Facebook doesn't put the vintage circuit in a very good light.
 
There is probably another side to it, and it probably stems from a misunderstanding, but is the Vintage/Classic circuit there for everyone? Thats not the picture being painted by some of you guys at the moment. The above story will be getting around, the Facebook thread is visible to anyone within the Merlin circle and its all destructive to what you're supposed to be trying to acheive.
 
You need to move on from the root of this thread and find away to accept these guys who have spent money rather than time on their boats within your events. Do you really want people to leave an event wondering whether to bother again because their mast is anodised in silver rather than gold?
 
Of course there is a place for original boats, but as they get older the bits are getting scarcer and originality is not easy to achieve. There are quite a few boats out there that would have gone on the bonfire decades ago that have been kept afloat and winning races by one group of people spending time and another money on their craft. They are doing this for different purposes maybe, but I see the perceived arms race taking place on the incredibly competitive Thames circuit and club racing rather than being aimed squarely at the pursuit of the De May series trophy. In any case you have a handicap system to even the playing field for the De May series, so what more do you want? 
 
The boat that kicked this off has been ruled upon, it's in. That debate is finished, move on. (My opinion, not necessarily that of the committee)

 Chris: Yes, we know that the boat is 'in'. But that has radical implications - can't you see that? This thread was originated in an attempt to find a way forward for those who are unhappy with the direction in which the so-called 'vintage' (i.e. over 30 years old) fleet is going.
The MROA Committee can take the initiative on this matter or not - if not, then either matters will be taken out of their hands or things will drift (e.g. MROA membership will decline and CVRDA membership will get a boost). 
 

Chris, if it's the Facebook comments that are originated by me that you are referring to, then please note that these go only to my friends. Of which you are one. 

I agree Chris, 'The boat that kicked this off has been ruled upon, and it's in' end of the argument on that story. 
 
However, I agree with Keith and others that a Vintage boat is by definition:
 
"denoting something from the past of high quality, especially something representing the best of its kind"
 
The question is not should 'the boat that kicked this off' be allowed to win races (that as you say has been dealt with) but is rather "should there now be some sort of definitive criteria to define what is vintage and what is not"
 
My view is that a vintage craft is as near as possible to it's original state. Whether it has had to have a 90% rebuild of the hull is not relevant as long as it duplicates the original hull shape and in construction methods. I also think the rig should represent the rig of the day and so should the handicap. That to me would be a true vintage boat.
 
Having said that, I also think that there is nothing wrong in 'pimping' old boats and tweaking them, as long as their handicap is adjusted accordingly.
 
They are all Merlin Rockets, we just need a definition of what is a true vintage boat. Then perhaps, this will sort itself out. None vintage boats as per the definition I gave, i.e. pimped up hulls can still race but can be handicapped accordingly.  This again, as you say, is done for the De May series.
 
My question then is:
 
 What is the definition of a Vintage Merlin Rocket?
 
A sail number over 30yrs old to me is too vague. 
 
 

I may be asking a dumb question here, but why don't we just leave the MR rules alone, and change the vintage handicaps instead?
 
Current system is to begin with a PY of 1000, and adjust accordingly:
Ribbed Boats:	+20
Beam below 5' 8":	0
Beam 5' 8" to 6' 6":	-10
Beam 6' 7" and above:	-20
Cotton sails:	+40
Terylene / Dacron sails:	0
Laminated sails:	-10
Small spinnaker:	+10
Medium spinnaker:	0
Large spinnaker:	-20
Wooden mast (when used with original type sails):	+40
Metal mast:	0
Carbon mast:	-20
 
We could add something like the following:
Hull shape same as day boat first registered: 0
Hull shape changed: -10
At least 75% of hull timbers and planking same as day boat first registered: 0
Over 25% of hull wood has been renewed in the last 10 years: -10
(No penalty for re-decking)
 
I know fresh wood gets hidden under paint, but there is usually a giveaway (either visually, or because someone else remembered seeing the boat derelict years ago, or because the hull is curiously down to weight).
 
I expect there is a flaw in my wording above, but the main idea - to ignore rules and to change handicaps - is the key thing. Rules are too difficult to phrase, and whilst handicaps have all the same issues, we can at least word them, and police them, in a more relaxed manner.

It had radical implications but I don't think that the solution you want is possible to enforce or write. The comments referred to elsewhere are not specifically yours but several well known and respected people from the vintage merlin community, and I'm pretty sure that they are not intended to read the way that they do. They are probably visible to more people than you think unfortunately.

 from the outside in it does start to look as if a bit of a closed shop is in the ether, especially factoring in the guy who went to Boshams experience. It's not good is it? 

There's room for both camps here, both are keeping old boats going which is surely what is what you all want?

 Magnus, your idea is a good one and is basically how the DeMay series works (or so I believe - see later). There was an agreement among interested parties (at the Cookham meeting of January 2013) that 'new' old boats should be allowed to race in the DeMay but they would be given a handicap - however, it was not quantified but left to a sub-committee of 3.
When the 2014 Yearbook was published I therefore expected to see a DeMay handicap figure for 'new' boats to 'old' designs. however, it was not present. See page 41 of the Yearbook.
I therefore enquired of Mervyn Allen, asking why this handicap item was not present. He did not answer my enquiries. I persisted (as I do) and eventually obtained a patronisingly worded refusal to communicate with me. The ostensible reason for this was that I was not a vintage boat owner (which I am, but so what?). I made the entire committee aware of Mr Allen's email to me, but no comment was received from any of them.
 
So I still don't know if such a handicap was introduced - my guess is that it has just been swept under the carpet. As I have said before, that Cookham meeting was a waste of time. If some people think that the so-called vintage wing is being run by a clique, according to secret rules, then who can blame them.
 

Hi Everyone,
 
Sorry, but I don't feel that this should be "laid to rest".
 
Regarding "the way ahead", if numbers are falling its time to take action and, as the song says "Money Talks".
 
Sailing is a pastime in which we engage for enjoyment after a hard working week.  If you are a member of an amateur association then the essence of that engagement should be the pleasure derived from that activity with others.
 
In such an organization there should exist a constitution which lays down the basic ethos and methodology (rules) through which that ethos is expressed.
 
I see that the current problem with the vintage/classic division  as a lack of regulation to the definition of what actually constitutes a vintage boat as well as to the races to which those boats are admitted, and the problem is going to get worse, not better, if something isn't done about it soon.
 
Imagine, in 20 or 30 years time (whichever classifies vintage) also the Hazardous 170 09 which I am building will be vintage, and, when sailing in the DeMay series should be highly competitive (if I am not at the helm !!   ) against the old 1960's Merlin designs which would not really stand a chance of winning any regattas.
 
I believe we need to look back to the ethos or spirit of the founding of the MROA to find "the way ahead" which should emerge almost naturally.
 
In the Vintage Section we need to divide the Merlins into classes selected over ranges of 10 years or between periods of dramatic design changes.
 
The participating Merlins in a vintage regatta should be selected based upon the rigging, sails and hull of that period. Any hulls which have been rebuilt should have a weight corresponding to the average weight of boats for that period or for that design, and, where a specific design is referenced, the boat dimensions should correspond to the average values of dimensions for that design. Much of this information can be gleaned from the measurement certificates of which there should exist a database.
 
Additionally, for boats which have been rebuilt and are high achieving there should be a limit to the number of vintage regattas over a 2 or 3 year period in which they can participate.
 
Some new regulations need to be introduced :
 
1. A revised definition of a "vintage boat"
2. Introduce classes of vintage boats , by age or design
3. Introduce  rules for vintage boat rebuilds and/or modifications and even designate "Fast & Furious" specs.
4. Introduce new regattas for  all these classes
5. For the "Fast & Furious" vintage who want to race their "HotRods" introduce a special regatta "The Royal French/Callaghan Series"  where any vintage boat can participate, but at your own risk !!
 
That should make everyone happy and above all encourage goodwill and camaraderie among members (which, incidentally, is what this is all about)
 
I believe Keith is trying to do this.
 
Cheers 
 
Ainslie
 
 

Reading this thread with interest (and confusion). Two years ago I bought a nicely restored Merlin which is now 35 years old but "mostly" original. The resortation included a  new deck. a couple of planks, a carbon rig and low tank. I am looking to do a few more meetings next year but reading this thread I'm not sure the DeMay series is for me or, even if I would be welcome. Maybe there should be some clear guidelines on this? No need for rules, just simple words. It's a bit like turning up at a party in the wrong dress code.

 You jolly well should be made welcome, otherwise somebody needs a smacked bottom! It would be great to have you at a vintage event, or any other open meeting.
 
As you've gone for a carbon rig, you will have to put up with a slight handicap adjustment, in order to make things fairer against those with alloy or wooden masts. No problem with replacing a few planks, changing the tank or decking.
 
This thread has mainly been discussing old boats where the hull shape has been completely rebuilt, so not to worry. I have usually found vintage boat owners very welcoming, so please do come along.

May I make a suggestion, as an ex/old Merlin crew?
 
Why not use a similar handicaping system to the Norfolk Punts (and even the Broads River Cruisers to an extent), and similar to the CVRDA process for an unknown class..
 
You assign a percieved handicap to the boat and helm, if the boat wins chop it a bit (the HANDICAP that is!!), and if it wins improve it a bit.  All handicaps to be decided by an impartial committee that meets, say, three times a year, and adjusts the personal handicap for each boat if necesary.  Initially the handicaps will be all over the place, but a good group of people, will know the approximate relative speed of each boat with or without modifications, so they should get to ballpark figures within a year or so...
 
It may seem like a personal handicap, but it is more, a personal boat handicap....  The handicap comittee should be able to use judgement to decide the difference in skill levels between Ben Ainslie and Frank Spencer.
 
It works in other classes, it works in golf, it works in the CVRDA, all it needs is people to be prepared to create an impartial committee to make the decision.  (Or do you not trust your fellow sailors to make the correct calls?)
 
This may stop all this bickering and allow people to sail older boats at events for older boats, enjoy, and know that, if that day, they sail better than normal they get a prize...
 
Everyones a winner, the sailors, the conservators, the racers....
 
Jon

Jon, I think you have a point - the CVRDA handicapping systems may very well hold the key to the solution for MR sailors with vintage/classic boats who (with all due respect to the DeMay competitors) do not see the DeMay series as their cup of tea.

 As the one who administers the CVRDA handicapping system I'm interested in all this. We handicap the boat only, the sailor doesn't matter, but we will adjust for modernisation.
Our standard handicaps are based on original boat, alloy mast and Dacron sails but we have found over a few years that the rigidity of wooden masts and the flexibility of carbon make a big difference, as does cotton sails or mylar sails and I believe we give larger adjustments than the  Merlin De May series does.
 
And as an aside we took a tatty plastic 1973 Albacore to Bosham Classic Revival and were welcome though I personally prefer the laid back atmosphere of CVRDA where you're more likely to get a copper nail or a plastic duck as a trophy than the fine glassware and rum of Bosham. Enjoying the old boats sailing together is what counts rather than prizes.

 

Handicaps? 


Well, if you must!
But race together!
 


Back in the day Minima Y C and Ranelagh S C both ran
handicap pursuit races Minima every Saturday Ranelagh, rather less often.
Minima even had a big clock on the front of the race box programmable that made
the starts an automated process.


The handicaps were an ad hoc mixture of class, helmsman, and
boat. They worked rather well.


Since this topic was first aired a few years back I have
suggested and been jeered for taking the opportunity to suggest leveling the
playing field on sailing weight and having a minimum crew weight the shortfall
being made up with lead carried in the boat, the jockey club manage, it I am
sure the clever people who occupy the Merlin Rocket class could make it work.


Golf of course has personal handicaps zealously administered
with aprobrium for cheating.


As Jon has said the Broads River Cruiser class bases its
handicaps on performance and updates from regatta to regatta. It seems to work.


Handicapping Merlin Rockets, which is a restricted class in
any event, seems an oxymoran to me and is an anathema. 


Surely all boats race level, start together the older boats
accepting that they are less likely to win. I recall at Ranelagh in the winter
of 1963-4 racing against Beecher Moore in Merlin Rocket no 2 he won a few races
and was always in the hunt.


If you must apply handicaps (Like the Holt Plate at the MR
Championships) apply them within an all in race.


One could offer a discounted entry fee for older boats,
their owners tend to be less well off.
Nice prizes make great keepsakes. 

 I'm afraid I voted with my feet and am no longer a member of MROA. Vintage or classic should just mean that the boat is 'as built' at the time and anything new is just a pretty straight replacement of what was originally there.
 
Despite living and sailing a long way off the usual haunts, I fancied getting onto the DeMay circuit  but kicked the plan into touch when I realised that it was'nt a jolly get together of peeps with old boats but it had an arms race all of its own.
 
Having been to several meets in different boats IMO the CVRDA have got it pretty much right. That's where my energies will be going for the foreseeable future and Julia Dream will languish in the garage. 

 The Finn fleet have defined classic as excluding carbon or mylar rigs
So they've added two additional fleets for their inlands - the standard classic - any pre 1985 hull with 
an alloy rig and the modernised ones - any pre 1985 hull with any rig. Their hulls are of course much more one design than the Merlin.
 
Having seen the new/old boat for myself I still think it's a new boat built from old wood. But having seen it and other Merlin Rockets pumping their way around the course, I was even more disgusted with the vintage Merlin fleet. I did try to video it when I was ashore, but didn't have a decent camera with me, so no clear evidence for a protest under rule 42. However it was a topic of conversation among the non-Merlin sailors yet again. 
 

Tony,
 
Sorry to hear you've left, but I'm glad you're finding the CVDRA more your thing.
 
This does raise a potentially mutually beneficial conclusion that it is nice that there are two organisations suited to two differing requirements; the MROA caters for those looking to race Merlin Rockets (new or old) with the option to utilise the latest technology and materials (as they always have done), and the CVDRA caters for the purists (in terms of keeping things truly original), who would like to potter about and do some less results focused racing.
 
In many ways, the fact that the two camps appear not to be competing for the same market could be seen as a good thing. It's still good to get more boats well cared for and preferably on the water...