Please all note the Vintage event at Frensham Pond should be down for SUNDAY not saturday. It is combined with the Classic and Vintage Racing Dingy Association event which is over the whole weekend but there is only one race on saturday (at 14:40) and three on the Sunday starting at 10:30.
For those who want to come for the whole weekend there is an evening meal (cheap) and social.
More details on the cvrda website

So there will be a few Merlins racing on Saturday, but the 'De May' vintage series points are earned on Sunday only?

I will pop down one of the days and take some photos. Looking forward to welcoming you to my home club (I've finally joined again after a 16yr absence).

Yes, we managed the same confusiion last year! 
Chris is hoping to bring Iska(6) which is probably the most photogenic Merlin with her wooden mast and cotton sails!

And I will be there for the CVRDA event both days with Secret Water No 111 also wooden masted but new sails.  Setting off from Aberdeen very soon!!  Also will be at Thames Vintage Regatta on 26th and 27th July.

Did someone say petrol prices?

Not wanting to hi-jack this topic and perhaps not the place to discuss it.... but....picking up on Mags comment, it will be interesting to see over the coming months and years if there will be an impact on sailing events and the ability to travel greater distances to attend given the ever increasing cost of fuel. I do hope it will not be the case but I suspect unfortunately it already is!!!!

We'll see a return to the practices in the 50s (?) when people would sail to an event. There were a few stories on here of people sailing from Sussex YC down to the next club on the coast, and of course the Thames lot did it too (depending on bridges...even then, it'd be faster than driving in London).

More recently, a Cadet sailed from Exemouth to compete in the Starcross Steamer, a sterling effort!

A friend of mine built a Graduate in the school workshops at Rugby then sailed and rowed it to his home in Newhaven via the Grand Union Canal, the Arun to Littlehampton, then along the coast. I think he had a portage near Weybridge.

Do the Raters still tow from Thames SC to Bourne End?

Some do but most go by road these days on dirty great big road trailers and then a few of the fleet drive up to Norfolk to do the Three Rivers Race on the Norfolk Broads. But don`t borrow a trailer from a certain member of the rater fleet cos all that happens is the wheel falls off!!!!!!!!!! Luckily boat not on trailer at time!!!!! Cheers see you all for beer somewhere soon in the very near future Allez!!!!!!!!!!!

Tying this thread with that of sponsorship, how about "starting money" not a free entry (All sorts of liability issues there.) but a "hand out" in cash or fuel vouchers to any one who at least comes to the line in all races and attends the prizegiving as contribution to "fuel". Shell BP and Esso have made similar gestures to the Horse World (All disciplines.) for many years.

Which brings us straight back to Thames SC - I am sure that when I first started sailing, Thames used to give 'Prize money' not the more common, traditional club memorabilia. I don't remember ever winning though !!

PS - It could give the 'Longest Distance Traveller Award' a new significance though!!!
There won't be many of those awarded next year!

Bet it doesn't stop Garry R though, there is dedication.

No it'll just make people more picky - this year we are only going to fewer events that we really enjoyed and had good sailing and that includes trekking right across country to Brightlingsea, but not events on the Thames or even Weymouth Dinghy Regatta which is fairly local but expensive.

The difference is that I make the sailing events part of my holiday so that if you really got it timed correctly you could sail Frensham Pond, Netley, and Thames Sailing Club (as CVRDA events) on consecutive weekends this July and each event is two days at least.  The weeks in between we visit friends and generally have a good time.  So plenty of sailing bangs for the bucks.

Pat, it's a shame you didn't really enjoy the Thames events.  The winds at Minima YC (despite the strong stream) and Thames SC resulted in some very enjoyable racing.  However the turnout, 9 and 7 respectively, was quite low.  If I can muster the energy after Salcombe, I'll be trying to attend the De May Trophy event at Frensham on the Sunday which cost wise is around the same as the various Thames club opens.

Sorry Richard, it was the pumping at Tamesis that has really put us off but for us west country yokels the Thames is a lot more in fuel and time! 
We'll see you at Frensham though.

When I were a lad on the Isle of wight we often used to sail the boats to opens. Based at Fishbourne we would often sail round to Cowes or Gurnard for Cowes dinghy Week or to Bembridge for their opens.
Of course in those days your parents werent critisized for allowing you to be adventurous and we didnt have mobiles.
In the words of Arthur Ransome "Better drowned than duffers, If not duffers,wont drown".

Sorry way off thread. Enjoy Frencham and see you all at Netley.

All vintage Merlins are welcome at Netley the following weekend (19th and 20th) for the Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association Nationals. Racing on Saturday and Sunday, optional cruise on Monday. Camping on site available from Friday. 
There will be a number of us attending with Merlins so you won't be alone!

Socials, barbecue and 60's evening. Great fun.

Couldn't make Frensham yesterday as on rescue boat duty at Tamesis.  Again, a nice wind materialised with some enjoyable sailing and no pumping!

Just one point though Pat - if the 'pumping at Tamesis' put you off last year, why didn't you protest those responsible at the time?  Anybody protesting on this matter will always get full support from the flag officers and club as a whole, and we need those who witness those breaking rule 42 to follow through their grievance officially.  

I know we had this debate last year, but the problem relates to individuals, so it's a little unfair to tar a whole club with comments like 'the pumping at Tamesis'.

Richard, pumping is a problem at all Thames river venues, as there are always holes in the wind (unless very lucky with the wind direction).
The temptation to roll a Merlin about to get through them is great, due to the responsiveness of the boat. Also Lasers tend to get pumped excessively on the river. Once I challenged a Laser sailer who only had ever sailed on the river at club level, and he genuinely did not know that what he was doing was against the rules.

There also is a very fine line between excellent sailing and pumping, a well executed roll tack or gybe(that exits at the same speed as entry) can be seen as pumping by a sailor less familiar with light wind techniques. Additionally, as you fall into a hole you need to sheet in, as apparently wind goes forward (wind speed drops, boat speed maintained for a while), and then sheet out for any small gust, with the wind comming from multiple directions this can look like pumping or fanning the main.

The problem with asking the competitors to police rule 42 infringments, means that you are asking the competitor to keep a continuous eye on another boat to check for repeated movement, when they most need to be keeping an eye of their own sails/burgee/tell tails/wind on the water. Then you are asking them to rally round asking for witnesses, and then asking them to protest their mates for an alledged infringement.

In my opinion, a good race management team will be looking out for rule 42 situations, and have a specific process for dealing with it, they generally have a better view of the situation and can observe a competitor over a longer period of time.

I think that any Thames club putting on a significant open event should consider how the race management team will deal with rule 42 issues, and they should visibly execute their observation and warning/penalisation plan.

The three points you make Alan (1. skilled/legitimate roll tacking/gybing as opposed to pumping/fanning etc, 2. self policing problems with rule 42, and 3. race management policing of rule 42) are all valid up to a point and well known to me already.

Regarding points 2. and 3.  Pat commented that she saw people 'pumping' during an event.  If she or anyone else saw what they believed was an infringement of rule 42 (or any other rule for that matter), she/they should protest them.  I'm not asking Pat or anyone else to police rule 42 infringements alone, I'm just asking them to protest people if they believe the rule has been infringed.  Leaving the event without raising the problem officially with the race management/club will achieve nothing.

In addition to this I agree that the race committee/management and the club where the event is taking place should assist in policing/enforcing rule 42 for the reasons you state.  This is something Tamesis is developing precisely because of the difficulty in enforcing the rule.  However, this shouldn't be relied upon on its own - we still need competitors to protest if they feel the rule has been infringed.  Whether they are correct in their protest or not is another matter and is for a protest hearing to establish.

OR; you can specifically allow pumping in a codicile to the Sailing Instructions which gets round the need to police it very neatly a relieves the frustration of those that do not have bad backs or a twitch in their mainsheet arm!

Have you ever known a competitor ever protest a fellow competitor for pumping/rocking/ooching?

Oh yes! And the umpires too.

Why did they want to protest the umpires ??

Nick

Why not ask a qualified judge or umpire who has had training in rule 42 to come to the next Thames meeting and ajudicate. This would take the onus to protest away from the competitors. What I hear are complaints but nothing being done.

did that at UTSC for a few years - as soon as his back was turned - or lunch was served!!!

That's a very good idea Barry.  Can you suggest anybody who'd be willing/able to do it?  We have a sailing committee meeting at Tammy this evening so will raise the idea then.

The RYA have a list of Judges and Umpires who are qualified to rule on rule 42 in your area.. Not all judges are  qualified to adjudicate on rule 42. I am but I live in Lymington.

Thanks for that Barry.  Will consult some more qualified colleagues at our sailing committee meeting tonight with the info you've provided.

It's a tricky one, certain amounts of pumping are allowed under the rules; per wave or gust.  So there is be a fine line between legal pumping to excessive (non-legal)pumping.  

I would say that on the river it is not so much pumping that is the problem, but excessive tacking and gybing.  This is much easier to spot and should be easier to prove in a protest room i.e. how many tacks or gybes over a 60 second period, anything over two has to be verging on illegal.

On the river it isn't really excessive tacking that is the problem, that is too easy to spot, and in some cases very short tacking is required to stay in a wind band and out of the stream.

What river sailors tend to do is to gently roll their boat to leeward easing the main and then pull it upright again, relatively gently and sheeting the main in a bit. 

This can be legitimate at times as in a no wind situation it is necessary to heel the boat to leeward to keep some shape in the sails by gravity, and when the zephyr comes then clearly it is fastest to have the boat upright.

As there is a fine line between legitimate and illegal, as per my earlier post, it is almost impossible for another competitor to make a judgement call. Was that roll because there was a bit of wind the competitor spotted, or was that an illegal move?

p.s. re 2 tacks per minute i.e. 30 seconds per tack; in many river clubs, you might not just be out of the wind band and in the current, you could well be sailing down the high street or over the fields. The sailing situation needs to be taken in consideration to determine what is excessive.

I think if you are tacking or gybing more than twice in a minute over say 5 - 10 minutes, that is excessive, whatever excuse you may wish to use.  In terms of pumping, in my view bringing the boat upright after a gust is legal, leaning into the boat to generate heal and then bringing it upright is illegal.  Easy rule of thumb.

Please google 'rule 42 ISAF' and look at the interpretation of rule 42, propulsion. Its all there, what you can and cannot do.
42.1 Basic rule.
Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. 
the interpretation is then 4 pages of A4 to explain what you can and cannot do. Its a good read.

Yawn!
An example of New Labour "lets find out what people are doing and make a rule against it". If you let everybody do it there would be no need for all that paper!

Dear zzzzz. Definitly not New Labour. What do you mean by "lets find out what people are doing and make a rule against it"? That is precisly what many learned judges and rule experts have done and the result is rule 42. To make it a free for all with regard to propulsion then it would be everyone down to the gyme and you can flap and roll your way around a course easily. The fittest guys would win. But its not sailing as we know it. Just go and watch the RX boards racing, who have dropped rule 42 and you will see what I mean.

Out of interest, I do know that Rule 42 is being looked at and by November 2008 will be either dropped or redraughted. As it stands it is a very difficult rule to interpret and enforce. Lets see what happens in November.

So the ISAF actually agree with zzzzz?
Barry, do you think there is any mileage in a simplified set of rules for normal mortals leaving the complex ones for the Americas Cup and such, - those who go to the Protest Meeting with a lawyer and video tapes? 
I know  Paul Henderson was keen on such before he reired.

No, they dont agree with zzzz, whoever he or she is. They dont want a free for all or for rule 42 to be dropped. They recognise that the rule is very difficult to enforce and are trying to simplify the wording.
I believe that knowing the rules improves sailing and makes it more fun. If sailors bothered to read them and make some effort to understand them we would all benefit. The RYA and clubs organise rule seminars and classes so please, please try to attend them.