MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Catergory C - Sponsorship

With the AGM just around the corner and with the imminent delivery of the Summer MR Magazine, now seems a prudent time to raise the Category C issue once again on this Forum. I wrote the proposal (seconded by Hywel BP Jnr.) so the issue can be finally aired and hopefully put to bed... The exact phrasing of the proposal is as follows:

Rule 17 (d) be amended to read as follows:

- Advertising shall only be displayed in accordance with Category C of the ISAF Advertising Code. (See ISAF Regulation 20)

- The AGM shall consider any maximum levels of advertising to be written into the class rules as per ISAF Regulation 20.4.4

The new MR Mag will have some views for and against the proposal and I know that a huge amount of text has already been written on this forum (just do a search for CAT C or Sponsorship). It is unfortunately quite a complex issue and I know that many people have some strong views. In an attempt to save everyones sanity at the AGM, I urge anyone who has views to continue the debate on this Forum before we get to the AGM so that the meeting itself will be more of an arm raising exercise.... (Or not.... depending on your position) and not a repeat of all of the views already aired.

The key thing to remember is that a quorum is needed and if the proposal is to go through then a 2/3 majority is required. Full ISAF regs can be viewed on the ISAF website.

Finally, in immortal words of the legend that is Boris Johnson:

"Voting Tory will cause your wife to have bigger breasts and increase your chances of owning a BMW M3"

Cheers, SB.


Posted: 10/06/2008 21:38:13
By: Sye B
Hi Folks
I agree with Sye's comment. A well informed debate and open mind is in my opinion the way to play this one. After all, we are a progressive class and we should allow all views to be aired in an orderly manner. Though not ther at Salcombe due to lack of holiday issues, so attending ony the Nats this year (as the last 2 years), would have liked to attend the debate but will not be there. However, I hope that both sides will put forward a strong and concise case and help unravel the missconcieved ideas of category A and C and what it means.
BFN
Barnsie


Posted: 10/06/2008 22:15:36
By: barnsie
http://www.ussailing.org/isaf/FAQ.asp

http://www.ussailing.org/isaf/FAQ.asp

Posted: 11/06/2008 00:05:45
By: .
ISAF International and Recognized Classes, and Non-ISAF class Associations:
The class association chooses whether competitors can display Category "C" advertising. If it selected Category "C," the class may apply restrictions. If an ISAF or Non-ISAF class association does not choose Category "C," Category "A" automatically applies.

Does the above wording, if interpreted such, mean that if we select Category C, it's not automatically a free for all regarding hull and sail logos?


Posted: 11/06/2008 10:03:26
By: .
Yes; you may elect to keep it within the bounds of good taste mindful of the history and abience of the class.


Posted: 11/06/2008 10:41:33
By: .
Is sugested that individuals will seek and display personal sponsorship which could increase the divide bwtween those that have and those who have not. OR Class sponsorship and every Merlin Rocket having to carry the sponsorship stuff; hard if it's a matter of concience eg.,(Not very good but you get the idea.) Green Peace logo and a a crew of a whaler as crew; or an employee of a Bank carrying a rivals logo.


Posted: 11/06/2008 11:12:12
By: **
That is a very good point. There are indeed two issues which need to be discussed:

1. Whether the class should opt for Category C under ISAF regulations

2. If it does, what (if any) restrictions would the class like to impose on where logos can be displayed under ISAF regulation 20.4.4

To make the debate easier to follow on the forum, it might be worth adding 1) or 2) at the beginning of each thread which corresponds to the point addressed.


Posted: 11/06/2008 11:43:11
By: Sye B
Following Si’s suggestion:

Issue 1.

Before debating whether this will increase 'the divide' please consider who is likely to sponsor the Merlins. The class receives minimal coverage hence we a re not going to have blue chip companies queuing up to sponsor our boats. It will fall in to two categories, event sponsorship from the likes of Marchant Petit (Salcombe Week) and individual 'sponsorship' to claim VAT back on new sails. The latter is more of a loop hole, i.e. I would bang a company logo up on my sails, take a piccy should the tax man come knocking, take it off again and then order sails through the company account saving 17.5%.

Issue 2.

If it is a case of aesthetics then we as a class have the option to control sponsorship levels. A sensible suggestion would be to only allow decals (vinyl stickers) on a certain area of the main sail and not on the boat, reason being if you have a beautifully painted or varnished wooden boat then you wont want to damage it.


Posted: 11/06/2008 12:44:20
By: Alex
I would support class event sponsorship such as Salcombe where all boats could display Logo's etc. if this would enable better or cheaper events.
I would be against individual sponsorship where some would gain further advantage / funding by either being one of the top few sponsorable boats or association with the sponsoring company.


Posted: 11/06/2008 13:03:50
By: WP
We should be carfeul not to mix class or event sponsorship up in this debate. Whatever the outcome, the forward 25% of the hull would be left for class / event sponsorship under the ISAF code. This debate should focus solely on personal boat or sail advertisement.


Posted: 11/06/2008 13:20:33
By: Sye B
Another request,...considering this is an open debate with regard to a proposed rule change can I request that those leaving comments acknowledge who they are, thus making the thread more creditworthy.

Thank you

In answer to the comment above, the class is not a profit making organisation, in the past when a profit has been made we look at how to spend it most appropriately to benefit the class as a whole. Where sponsorship has been aquired in the past (Hayling and Phwheli) we have always reduced entry fees cost and or supplied additional socials.


Posted: 11/06/2008 13:32:40
By: Alex
Overall Class sponship but without advertising on boats compulsory.
Individual sponsorship left to the individual as whether or not they want to sail a "Bill Board".


Posted: 11/06/2008 16:00:43
By: ...
Who is Alex?


Posted: 11/06/2008 17:37:43
By: Interested
I am in a slightly better position to comment now having just been offered and had to turn down an offer from a chandlers to display their logo on our sails. I am not looking at making money from it but would benefit from a discount in their stores. This to me seems like a good idea. 

I am not from of the fleet very often (it has been know on the odd occasion) and so if I can benefit in some way then I think it is a worth while venture.

When is the AGM by the way?


Posted: 11/06/2008 19:00:01
By: Jeremy & Jo Deacon
In the last thread there were several comments about the advantages of Category C status e.g. it encourages a flow of second hand kit down the fleet.

From a personal perspective I raced an RS400 (Category C rules) for several years doing a few events but mostly sailing at my club and it's (non-FatFace) open. I saw no advantages from a competitor point of view. Enhanced prizes went to the usual winners and I never noticed a thriving trade in 2nd hand gear. It provided no incentive to me to go to an event.

That said I know from recent championships held at our club that sponsorship can help with the cost and therefore the entry fee in big events though I am not sure how big an impact this actually has on the fee for an individual.

My main experience of the impact of advertising was arriving at events and being told (not asked) that I had to plaster the boat and sail with stickers something I, perhaps irrationally, resented!

I would be against it - but then I won't be at Salcombe :-(


Posted: 11/06/2008 19:04:57
By: DaveC
The difference between advertising and sponsorship needs to be made.
Obviously there is already sponsorship for many at the front of the fleet who are in the marine trade - or 'helped' by sailmakers or equipment suppliers of one sort or another. Arguably they don't need to advertise, as it is generally known what kit is winning - putting an extra large sailmakers logo on the mainsail for example probably wouldn't sell more sails.
So the people who might benefit from Cat C are likely to be the 'have nots' in the fleet who may be able to afford, say, a new set of sails if they can persuade some organization to buy them in exchange for putting their logo in some prominent position. The advertiser may well derive some real benefit from this as well - if for example their boat happens to feature on some yachting press photos. There is a very good example of this on the front cover of the latest 'Dinghy Sailing' magazine. You do not have to win to advertise, say, watches - you just have to have a nice boat that looks good.


Posted: 11/06/2008 19:25:42
By: Pat Blake
I think Jeremy and Jo just made my point.
This is the link to Dinghy Sailing if you want to see the cover and don't have the magazine. There is a similar - although slightly different - example on the front of the current Y&Y too

http://www.dinghysailingmagazine.co.uk/

Posted: 11/06/2008 19:31:53
By: Pat Blake
Reference Alex's 17.5% VAT saving, it could be substantially more, in my opinion, even small companies have to pay 20% tax on profit and I believe (accountants can confirm) that marketing expenses reduce profits. Or looked another way, a company employing a higher rate tax payer at 40% PAYE plus 11% employee NI, instead of the employee paying the full amount amount of taxed pay - the company pays, so the saving to the employee is 17.5% Vat, 11% NI, 40% paye - so give or take a bit of maths about 68.5% saving buying sales through your company than buying it from your wages - Accountant please let me know how wrong I am.

By the way, I believe, that such tax savings are available wehther or not Cat C is allowed. Sponsoring isn't dependent on specific advertising.


Posted: 11/06/2008 23:56:31
By: Alan F
Sponsorship can benefit anyone not just the top boys,
I am sure loads of companies would like to see their name being rigged on a beach or sailing around in a harbour, what a unique way of getting your message accross to the general public. Competitors at all levels sail the same course, at Salcombe for example the tail enders may well be on the water for up to an hour longer than the race winners, therefor offering mor value for money to sponsor a mid to tail fleet sailor.
By voting for this proposal the MROA would be able to specify where the logo was placed and how large it could be. So it doesn't have to look distasteful.
Lets move with the times, anything that will help me replace my bagged out old main and save some cash in the process can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.


Posted: 12/06/2008 10:46:05
By: hywel jnr
A lot of things said for and against and indeed not sure, a bit of fence sitting, just think on this not entirely fanciful scenario though. 
A class sponsor let us say a large civil engineering concern that has sponsored sailing a lot in the past, logos or whatever are compulsory as they would pretty well have to be, a owner competitor works for let us say a Government Department that "Lets" large Civil Engineering Contracts, the Merlin Rocketeer would have to choose between his class or his employer who would "unamused" to say the least at his appearing to favour a potential supplier.
Sponsorship of individuals as Pat Blake says is a reality anyway and in most classes everywhere "knowledge". Probably doesn't sell much more kit for the sponsor either, because if its any good they man would but it anyway.
Sponsorship of events if you can get it a good thing probabably better, and more acceptable to the accountants and auditors to use it to keep entry fees down than pay for the parties.
Does anyone really buy something because they saw it on a Mainsail or Spinnaker at Salcombe?


Posted: 12/06/2008 11:06:11
By: Ancient Geek
I am not marketing expert, but I am certain that people don't buy things they have never heard of/seen the name of, so conversley putting the name 'out there' must be important to the sales process- otherwise there wouldn't be a multi-billion pound advertising business.

For example, two or three years ago, I know of two dinghy insurers that were OK (i.e reasonable rates) for Merlins, Newton Crum and Bishop Skinner - I knew of Bishop Skinner as they advertise in teh RYA mag and do deals for RYA personal member. Now I know of three, the other one being Craft Insure - because of their sponsorship of Merlin events.


Posted: 12/06/2008 21:25:27
By: Alan F
Spelling and grammar checker - please please Mags!


Posted: 12/06/2008 21:26:59
By: Alan F
I'm a merlin owner and a chandler, specialist in sailing dinghies.  I came from 10 years ago from being the board dirctor of a major distibution company (250million), over the past 5 years sailors have become less willing to part with money for service and goods.  They look for bargains, specail offers, freeby's ect.  Yet on a Sunday when they want a bit they have broken they complain about he price.  " I can get from so and so's website for  a couple of pounds cheaper! Gives us a discoun!!

Last March we had the Topper Nationwides at Datchet, great event 197 Toppers out on the water. The class association brought nearly £600 pounds worth of vouchers for use in the Dinghy Store plus other spot prizes for those way down the fleet. My business partner and I wondered how we could encougage non top sailors to continue to compete. We gave a new sail to the 96th sailor. You should have seen his smile, it was great. And from this last result have help encouraged him to keep on competing.

As a dinghy specialist chandlery we do not make boats or sails, but are open when you the dinghy sailor want us, we will offer our advice, tailor make ropes, do spot repairs,ect. All to keep you sailing, improving and for those lucky ones winning.

We would like to see our logos on Sails, not those at the front of the fleet, who might help develope for sail makers or who wear the latest gear, but the guy's and girls who go out weekend after weekend and try to improve and enjoy what they do.

We are sailors and understand the cost and time people put into this sport/pastime.

This in not an advert....it's my feeling! By the way the my Merlin is 2906 Smokers just like its owner and if anyone has any info I'd love it, like I love the class....


Posted: 12/06/2008 23:56:50
By: Mike
Pat has hit it on the nail. Sponsorship has been in sailing for many years whether Category A or C. With regard to the flow of secondhand gear, I cannot vouch for the RS400s. However, we have made the Category C system work to full effect in the B14s with a strong flow of near new kit to the less financially well off, so benefitting all. This also happened in the early days of the Laser 5000. It works if the fleet work together and it gets boats sailing. If the class was to go category C (limited), the PR on reporting Nats etc would have to be more professional. It is also proven that individual dinghy sponsorship does lead to greater fleet sponsorship over time as the class can reach a greater audience and so achieve greater exposure. Win win for all if done in the correct manner.
If not sure, speak to the guys that are sponsored in other classes and sell their kit on on a regular basis to other circuit sailors. Unfortunately in smaller classes, the kit may be sold prior to advertising on sites but we are currently seeing this with Winder Merlins. However, a large class with more kit available, this should not be the case.
Have fun and please declare who you are if adding to the thread.
BFN


Posted: 13/06/2008 07:55:38
By: barnsie
Just a few thoughts, before grabing the tigers tail, what does the class actually expect from allowing advertising (sponsorship already exists in one form or another). 
As a sailor I like it, purely because it provides visible markers in the fleet by which you can judge yourself over great distances. Because of the freeboard and love of colour the Merlins have maintained, this may not be much of a bonus.
So what does the class want, this must be split into two with an eye on three - one - event sponsorship, and what the sponsor would like against what the class wants. And two, public individual sponsorship / sail advertising. The third relates to what to do with the money.

Event sponsorship - as a rule of thumb in the dinghy world, these tend to be Clothing manufacturers, there are notable exceptions (Opies / Volvo, Cowes Week / Scania, Land Rover did something) but these tend to be for specific marketing reasons OR through involvement and commitment to the class (Speed). Event sponsorship in my experience leads only to better prizes and a marginal drop in entry fees in return, the sponsors are generally happy with hull adverts, which may not be good on wooden boats - once you have taken the tigers tail, you have to carry it and be grateful to the sponsor. Be very careful of the contract before accepting. Conflicts of interest are very unlikely to occur and if they do it is for the individual to decide.

Personel sail adverts - generally sail makers in the old classes. The fireballs used (in my day) to charge an additional entry fee for championships if adverts were carried, it paid for the beer! But you have to be careful, most sail makers already sponsor the class through adverts in the publications, this should not be ignored and I guess what they would like is press spreads with boats winning obvious to all with their kit, the bigger the logo the better. Anyone else - charge them, they are using the class to further themselves.

Would it lead to an increase in 2nd hand gear on the market - No = Championships are won by well maintained boats with top quality gear, like it or not, sails are a disposable item which the top flight, in any class, pass on when they no longer cut the mustard. The key to increasing this market is increasing the top flight.

Third - money - The Merlin Class like the Solos, has bus loads of money, no idea what it is for, does it need, as a not for profit organisation, more funds. I would say not, so any in flow should only be spent on the event it relates to.

JOR


Posted: 14/06/2008 00:07:46
By: John O 3563
Issue 2

The second part of the proposal is "The AGM shall consider any maximum levels of advertising to be written into the class rules as per ISAF Regulation 20.4.4"

Would those making or supporting this proposal please give some examples of what they consider acceptable. I believe that acceptance (or not) of the first proposal could be dependent upon the level of the second.

In this digital age, your responses should include pictorial examples - not how it looks on other boats but how it looks on a Merlin.

PJM (3547)


Posted: 14/06/2008 09:22:37
By: PJM
Suggestion. That any adoption be at first for a trial period only.


Posted: 14/06/2008 17:59:48
By: Ancient Geek
I wasn't that keen on plastering sponsorship stickers over our boat, especially if they break up when you apply them and the result has letters missing or torn. However our battle with the red Harken stickers at the Lark Inlands at Grafham last year paid off as, sailing number 40, the oldest boat there (built 1967) we were placed in the classic fleet and won a much needed mainsheet block. We were delighted as we are usually back of the main fleet - we go to make others look good! 

The trouble is the sticker marks still show a year later and that's on GRP. I wouldn't mind putting stickers on the Merlin sails but not on the carefully painted wooden hull. If stickers are required in the forward area it should be an option to put them on the jib.

Besides red on red just wouldn't show up anyway and there's so many colours of Merlin nothing would suit all!


Posted: 16/06/2008 20:27:12
By: Pat2121
I think we are slightly confusing class sponsorship with individual sponsorship. This debate is purely about if company logos will be allowed on individual boats / sails. This could be done for any number of commercial reasons. To gain a discount, to promote your own service, to get some money toward expenses or to get free kit etc.

I personally do not see this as a divider between the haves and the have nots. Those that have no problem raising money to run a merlin are not likely to waste time hunting for some deal. Those that are a little more budgeted will most likely spend more time looking for such support.

Some may utilise employers or their own businesses and use the sponsorship as an excuse to run their sailing expenses through the accounts (saving over 50% as explained by Alan).

It could also lower the cost of the class a little to some talented but not necessarily loaded newcomers. Some people have had the support of a sponsor in several classes they sail (harken for example) but may not be able to get the same deal in merlins due to lack of advertising. This would not widen the gap as everyone at the front has a pretty much immaculate boat so why not just have a few more.

I think the crux of the matter is asthetics but also of a slightly socialist nature. We are not debating the asthetics of your boat. That is your choice. We are discussing if people object to how other boats in the fleet will look. If you find that look ugly, do you find it ugly enough to cost someone else a discount or cause them to spend more money.


Posted: 16/06/2008 23:15:17
By: Mark Ampleford
What would the Warrens put on their sails?


Posted: 17/06/2008 10:50:12
By: .
Rabbits?


Posted: 17/06/2008 11:22:27
By: ..
No - that would be more appropriate for me!!!!!!!!!


Posted: 17/06/2008 11:23:19
By: ..
A Grim Reaper?


Posted: 17/06/2008 13:07:31
By: .
Surely sponsorship can only work if everyone shares an equal reward,otherwise it won't be fair,will it?


Posted: 17/06/2008 13:15:50
By: Ben3634
Life is not fair.


Posted: 17/06/2008 13:31:42
By: .
Was that the Grim Reaper?


Posted: 17/06/2008 13:54:39
By: Richard (3233)
Every one gets the same final reward.


Then the Warrens tidy up afterwards.


Posted: 17/06/2008 14:01:27
By: Alan F
When making a decision on the matter of sponsorship the class, both committee & membership, should consider that individual sponsorship is predominantly sought by:

1) Those who feel that some one else should pay for their sporting / leisure activities & have both the “front” & time to ask around…

2) Those who are in a position to pass off costs via a company, either theirs or another, where it is hoped a minimum shedding of 17½% can be achieved i.e. the VAT on sails set against advertising…

During my time in industry & whilst running my own business I was staggered by the number of people who thought somebody else should pay for their sporting activities & mostly without ever considering what they might contribute in return… Those one did sponsor rarely, if ever, thanked you when the arrangement came to an end (guess they were too busy finding a replacement sponsor) & by observation if a better offer comes show little loyalty either from an advertising point of view or product confidentiality. Furthermore, ensuring your logo does not end up with the wrong person, perhaps when sails are sold on, is not as easy as you might wish. Make no mistake one unduly pushy / mouthy person can destroy a lot of good will…

However, the reality is that the vast majority of all requests for individual sponsorship are rejected & also it is most unlikely that many companies would see a Merlin to be an attractive sponsorship proposition.

I remain in favour of event sponsorship where all competitors receive a reasonably equal, if small, proportion of the available funds but not indivual sponsorship which generally serves to fuel the armaments race & the disparity between the “haves” & “have-nots”. Despite what those interested parties might argue this individual sponsorship arrangement rarely increases the availability of second hand equipment but then those receiving individual sponsorship are probably using new anyway… & even when it does it works out that those buying the cast-offs are actually providing the “rotating” part of the funds which only serves to perpetuate & even increase that advantage for little or no additional cost…

Any sponsorship decision should be made for the benefit of the class as a whole & that decision not influenced by the self interest of the minority…


Posted: 19/06/2008 13:15:24
By: do
In a strange way the slower boat might make a more attracive proposition for sponsorship as there would be more time to read what was being advertised.  So, for those of us at the back of the fleet we might be the sponsor's dream!!


Posted: 19/06/2008 14:05:54
By: Slow boat
Sadly, as the owner of one of the slower boats or to be more exact being one of the slower boat owners, the problem with this is that sponsors for some strange reason want to be associated with the glamour of winning and success rather than the more subdued triumph of getting boat, self and crew round the course in one piece and not in last place which is my usual aspiration.  But maybe we are not thinking of the right sponsors.  Who, for example, was Eddie the Eagle Edwards sponsor?


Posted: 19/06/2008 15:24:07
By: Andrew M
Specsavers?


Posted: 19/06/2008 15:32:37
By: .
Northern Rock!


Posted: 19/06/2008 16:15:32
By: ..
Eddie actually trained with the Scandinavians and became a top class (30s) jumper, but as he had waved to the cameras on his last jump at the last Olympics, the UKIOC refused to grant him permission to represent GBR in the following games. Looked like he was having fun at the time though. His success was put down to his poor eye sight.
Getting back to Category C - Hope you have now read the article in the magazine and though for, would like to think it has helped some understand how it works. It works very well in the B14 class (see the spares list) and has worked in other Category C classes I have sailed in when there has been depth in sponsorship. With regard to duff gear being passed down, most pass on their sails after 3 months normal use so they are still in VGC and as good as most people's championship sails.
If there is to be a vote at the AGM and all 100 owners are present (17% of all members approx), should the vote not be for process to procedd, with the final vote being put out to all full members (email where possible), so giving a true representation of the class post the AGM. In the B14s, I know its a different class and in some cases a younger group, we have adopted this approach so that all feel they have inclusion and it is not us, the club sailors and occasional ST turn ups being excluded, while the circuit sailors decides all destiny. It has worked well and solidified the class as one big group looking out for all. Just a thought but feel a very important one. Also, should this not be the case when the weight reduction finally comes to be voted on.
BFN


Posted: 19/06/2008 16:26:43
By: Barnsie
Just to clarify... does that mean that only owner members get to vote? Those who not not own a Merlin, but are members of the association, do not get a vote? 
Thanks


Posted: 19/06/2008 16:51:45
By: jen
I believe all FULL members can vote. Not sure about associate ones though?? To helm at Salcombe/Champs etc. you have to be a full member.

I'm with Barnsie on allowing postal votes at the AGM. I believe all members of the association should be allowed to vote on proposals they now see in the latest magazine, not just those that attend Salcombe (approx 20-25% of full membership at a guess). Perhaps this is something the committee can look into for next year, Alex... ;-)

Mags I'm also with Alan, a spell checker on here would be ace if at all possible? Always using Word at the moment to be sure, as spelling not my strongest point.

Cheers, Ross


Posted: 19/06/2008 17:58:05
By: Captain Ross
In follow-up to above. If allowing postal voting at the AGM would mean a change to constituion, can the committee kindly let us know. That way perhaps someone can put a proposal in for next years AGM rather than just talking about it again and again.

Thanks


Posted: 19/06/2008 18:01:12
By: Captain Ross
you don't have to be a full member to helm at salcombe


Posted: 19/06/2008 18:16:55
By: minor point
Not quite/sort of.

Rule 21 c says "No boat is entitled to race in the class unless
the Owner is a current member of the National Merlin-Rocket Owners’
Association."

So if you are the Owner and Helm, you have to be a full member, but if you are not the Owner, as long as the Owner is a full memeber you can helm as an associate.


Posted: 19/06/2008 20:07:44
By: Alan F
1.Pat/Barnsie: many thanks for the Cat C explanation in the mag.  It was very confusing before, less so now! I will give the proposal careful consideration.  

Three points spring to mind:
a. I agree with Dan - I don't like stickers
b. At the Musto nationals last weekend (Cat C) only a few boats (out of 65)had sails logo'd up, and they were quite tasteful. They did, however, all have bow stickers with the event sponsors branding. Mustos are not clinker!
c. As the pin spotter at the Mustos I can tell you that a sail that has a logo is much easier to spot on the start line than one that is not!
d. The business of passing on secondhand kit is a red herring. We already have a pretty good secondhand trade - or are sponsored sailors going to give away their kit? I think not.

2. Postal voting. This will require a change in the constitution which I suspect will generate as much heat as weight reduction! I will watch the debate with interest.


Posted: 19/06/2008 21:52:38
By: JC
Checking on the website, I note the following: “Associate membership is for those who do not own a boat - you get most benefits, but cannot vote at the AGM.” As I’m an Associate Member (I don’t own a boat) I better make my points known now…

I have noted many people emphasising that allowing sponsorship will increase the disparity between the “haves” and “have-nots”. Every year I get a huge amount of help from family and friends in the Merlin class who are kind enough to lend me their boat for Salcombe or the Champs, or just give me a ride in the front of their boat for an open meeting. Despite this, I consider myself to be a relative “have-not” – right now I am nowhere near being able to afford to own a Merlin, nor to pay the expenses for maintaining one or travelling to all the events. However, I will continue to save, and maybe with a few lucky breaks and a few notches worth of pay-rise (!) one day I will be able to own my very own Merlin.

The more help I can have with this, the better. In other classes, myself and others have been sponsored by sailing clothing manufacturers, rope producers etc... this minimized one aspect of cost, and made a decent sailing campaign a lot more affordable. The companies loved having their logos on our sails, whilst we loved having some of our expenses reduced by having free kit.

In the Merlin class, this is currently not an option. I recall someone previously mentioning that maybe young people who already have sponsors through other classes might be able to get involved in the Merlin class by bringing their sponsors with them. This would increase class accessibility.

I totally appreciate the views against advertising – the Merlin is a fantastic looking boat and some people think stickers etc would ruin that. I’m sure we’ve all seen good and bad examples of advertising. I just thought I would throw in my 2 pence as someone who can’t currently afford to sail a Merlin full time, but really would love to, and I think that sponsorship could potentially make that a little easier…

Jen


Posted: 20/06/2008 09:31:28
By: jen
'Do' says:

"I remain in favour of event sponsorship where all competitors receive a reasonably equal, if small, proportion of the available funds but not individual sponsorship which generally serves to fuel the armaments race & the disparity between the “haves” & “have-nots”."

I agree that event sponsorship is preferable to individual sponsorship in terms of its application across the fleet and therefore making financial rewards (however small) available to as many as possible. However, the AGM proposal is not about sponsorship (event or individual) as this already within the rules. The proposal is whether to formalise the sponsorship process and make it transparent by allowing sponsors to advertise openly on boats/sails.

I can't see a problem with individual boat advertising if that is what an individual wants to do. After all, it's their hull and/or sail that they're applying stickers to. If it's regulated properly, perhaps it wouldn't be too aesthetically offensive to others.

With event advertising thought, wouldn't the event sponsor, for example, expect the whole fleet to carry its branded logo. Would an opt-out be available to boat owners in this situation?


Posted: 20/06/2008 10:04:31
By: Richard (3233)
Thanks for everyone’s input to this debate. Following some further thought, I’m drafting an amendment to the proposal to make things more straight forward for voting. I appreciate that everyone might have their own views on where event/personal sponsorship might best be placed, but it's a start. The amendment will be worded as follows: 



Rule 17 (d) Advertising shall only be displayed in accordance with Category C of the ISAF Advertising Code. (See ISAF Regulation 20)

Advertising shall be restricted to the following areas:
1. The mainsail within an area below the half height measurement point on the leech at right angles to the leech but excluding any area within 600mm of the foot. Any advertising must not in any way interfere with the sail numbers or class emblem.
2. The spinnaker
3. The deck.

The area of the mainsail within 600mm of the foot, the boom, and any part of the jib is reserved for event sponsor advertising.



I also think the comments regarding a trial period is a good idea and this is something that could again be voted on at the AGM.


Posted: 20/06/2008 13:40:35
By: Sye B
Hi Simon
I think the amendment is appropiate and think that it would be a good idea to allow a trial period for the fleet. However, as the Winter Pursuit events are not governed by the Class Association and are open to all categories, any Merlin is within its rights to go category C until it arrives at an ST or other Class Association governed event. One example of this I believe, was Tom and P&B last year.
Anyway loads of positive feedback which is good.
BFN


Posted: 20/06/2008 14:57:03
By: barnsie
Shouldn't we be voting on event/series sponsorship vs. individual sponsorship?
Sponsorship for an event/series would seem to benefit all equally,and individual sponsorship seems to benefit only a few.


Posted: 20/06/2008 17:31:13
By: Ben 3634
Not sure Barnsie is right on this.  If our class rules do not allow advertising (Cat A) then surely a boat racing in the Winter Pursuits with advertising could be protested for not being a Merlin.

Help please Measurement Man!


Posted: 20/06/2008 20:52:49
By: JC
Only Full Members may vote at the AGM under the present Class Rules - see pages 10 & 11 of the 2008 Year Book.  Only those present at the AGM may exercise their votes and there must be at least 40 Full Members present to discuss and vote on a change to the Owners' Association Rules or the Class Measurement Rules.

To change the Rules to allow postal or internet voting a suitably worded resolution would have to be put to an AGM for consideration and voting under the Rules as they stand at the moment.


Posted: 20/06/2008 23:25:58
By: Mike Anslow
Lads
Type in isaf regulation 20 into google and then have a read. This shows the rules as present if you are sailing under the ISAF/RYA Racing Rules of Sailing (we are)
This demonstrates that event sponsorship is already allowed and that the first 25% of the boat could already be stickered.
This has been allowed since 2001.
The fact that you have not seen it shows that there are few interested parties around to really invest substantial sums in sponsoring a Class event to this level. Yes sponsors do exist and are beneficial, but the Class/Clubs have not invoked this requirement.
Dont view this as a vote on Class sponsorship. This could happen in the ways suggested above without any change. This vote is about Category C which is unrestricted sponsorship. This is all about the individual not the Class.
So the question you have to ask yourself is - if I can already afford it, do i mind if more people can, and if I cant already afford it, do i really think that this will make the difference? A tough question. A tough question. No doubt probably most of those at Salcombe (and therefore the AGM) can afford it, because if you cant afford it you should not be holidaying in Salcombe! Is it broke?


Posted: 20/06/2008 23:35:50
By: isaf regulation 20
The current Rule 17(d) on advertising reads as follows - see page 45 of the current Year Book: -
"Advertising is permitted in accordance with the ISAF Advertising code section 20.3.1 and 20.3.2(a) (Category C)."

Unfortunatly, since this Rule was adopted the ISAF Rules have been amended and the references in Rule 17(d) no longer make any sense. In fact our Class Rule needs updating to take account of the changes to the ISAF code.


Posted: 20/06/2008 23:40:06
By: Mike Anslow
In response to the above Winter Pursuit events, if a club allows an event to be open to all forms (Category C) of sponsorship, I believe you'll find that this overrides the Class's position as it is a non class sponsored event. I may be wrong in this technically but the practice has been otherwise over the preceding years by several fleets. Interestingly, most of those fleets are now Category C. On another point, as pointed out in another post, the AGM will be predominantly attended by the haves rather than have nots. However, there will be a number of non circuit sailors attending, so this may address the imbalance if there is indeed one.
With regard to the postal/email vote, believe the class should trial it by asking members if they would like to be formally included in the process of decision making. This would be a good test exercise and give the committee the opportunity to see if this would potentially be the way forward. If not then at least we would have a balanced view from all the interested membership. The time to do it would possibly be by putting a detached voting slip in the next Newsletter. If the Committee put a proposal to the floor in Any Other Business and it was voted on subject to the findings of the survey, give the committee the power to proceed with the process and then invoke for major changes such as weight and other far reaching changes in the future.
Rule 17(d)will one way or the other need amending post the AGM to take into account the ISAF changes.
Though not that many contributors to the forum topic currently, we are seeing some interesting responses being put forward.
BFN


Posted: 21/06/2008 09:10:40
By: barnsie
I have Googled ISAF Reg 20. Simon's proposal on page 6 of the magazine says......consider the maximum levels of advertising.....as per ISAF Regulation 20.4.4.  Shouldn't this read 20.4.5?

Sorry to be pedantic - or have I missed something?

I really am trying to get my head round all this!


Posted: 21/06/2008 09:35:09
By: JC
Would someone like to make a comment about Regulation 20.7 - Fees


Posted: 21/06/2008 10:08:54
By: PJM
It is a pretty good idea if you do not understand something don't do it.


Posted: 22/06/2008 07:44:44
By: Ancient Geek
As an owner of a classic Merlin I doubt I am prime individual sponsorship material, but as an International Judge and someone who spends half his life writing class rules and sailing instructions, I think there is still some confusion as to the different categories and what is allowed.

Cat A is basically default. You have it now and it controls all the sailmakers marks etc. Under this Cat you can display a sticker for the Event Sponsor on the forward 25% of the bow. There is nothing stopping a set of sailing instructions insisting on this now for any event or series of events. Of course if should be with the agreement of the class and yes we know that stickers on wood are not good and on clinker unlikely to stay in place. However, it could be done now.

Event Sponsorship is not money to be shared out, it pays for a large percentage of the costs of the event which in return are shared by all as lower entry fees or more entertainment etc.

You do not need to change any rules to allow event sponsorship advertising on the bow of the boat. We must not confuse this with personal sponsorship and advertising which is Cat C. This is really better viewed as an add on to Cat A, not something different.

If the class wishes to allow individuals to display private advertising, then it is Cat C that needs to be approved in the class rules. Please remember this is for personal advertising only, it does not affect Event Sponsorship, nor does it give other reserved areas of the boat other than the forward 25% of the hull as per the default Cat A. Also, it does not suddenly allow larger sailmakers marks unless it is an individuals sponsorship.

The look of advertising on any boat is of course personal and subjective as are the benefits and whether they benefit only the person receiving the support or whether they pass this down in the case of sails for sale. The classes mentioned, the B14 and the Musto Skiff allow advertising without restriction. However, it is permissible under Cat C to limit the areas allowed and if passed I would certainly support restricting it to the spinnaker, foredeck and a certain area on the mainsail. There is a precedent for this in other classes such as the Melges 24.

I doubt very much whether this would cause any problems with the RYA or with ISAF. I think it is important to keep the voting subjects separate and the vote for Cat C personal sponsorship restricted as above is one vote.

A separate subject is reserving a lower portion of the mainsail for an Event or Circuit sponsor. Up until now, ISAF have been very reluctant to allow other reserved spaces and have often been quite difficult on advertising. Whether the RYA would actually consult ISAF over a National Class, I cannot say. However, looking through all the class rules on the ISAF website, I see that the RS Feva and RS Tera have managed to have class rules approved which reserves the 25% of the hull (Automatic) but also the lower 10% of the mainsail so there is a precedent set.

Because Event or Circuit sponsors could be very welcome irrespective of personal sponsorship I would suggest that a request to reserve a portion of the mainsail is a separate vote to allowing Cat C.

Therefore: Vote 1 - to reserve a portion of the mainsail in addition to the bow for event and /or circuit sponsors.
Vite 2: Allow Cat C individual sponsorship advertising with the above area restrictions.

Someone asked about the charges or fees for personal adverts. This is not a problem, because if you look at the RYA prescriptions to the Racing Rules (the yellow pages in the rule book that you all have) you will see that the clearly state there is nothing to pay.

I realize this is a little long winded but I hope it might help
D


Posted: 30/06/2008 22:27:03
By: DavidC
Thanks for the above - it is the clearest explanation of the issues so far.

There is another angle to be considered - boat names. At present class rules do not allow duplicate boat names so if two people were sponsored by, for example Harken, they could not both call their boats Harken. Do we need to change this rule as well - or do we allow people to enter their boats for events under a name that is not on the certificate?


Posted: 01/07/2008 08:27:54
By: JC
Sorry - I need to have a quick rant:

Abusing a boat name in this way is worse than any amount of stickers on a hull! Part of the great MR tradition is that we've got decent/meaningful boat names. It why our class is not a soul-less factory of identical plastic lumps.


Posted: 01/07/2008 09:55:22
By: Mags
Good point on boat names Mags. Think what it would do to the Champs fancy dress parties we had the last few years if boat names like Moist, Phantom Menace, Gangsters, etc were replaced by Harken, Holt, VW, etc... Boring!!!

Think I'm in favour of 'controlled/limited' sponsorship, but lets us please not go down this route. Think self control would be required if we can't regulate boat names....

Ross


Posted: 01/07/2008 10:11:41
By: Captain Ross
At least I think we now understand it thanks largely to Mr. Chivers.
Concur with mags on names.


Posted: 01/07/2008 12:13:41
By: .
With the possible exception of "Blow Job 2".


Posted: 01/07/2008 15:08:24
By: Mags
Yes I was never quite sure how that one got past the RYA. We have a Mark 4 Osprey at Shoreham appropriately called 'IV Play'...


Posted: 01/07/2008 16:47:24
By: Captain Ross
Other merlins I remember:

Wham Bam Thank you Mam

Jig A Jig

Both were at Draycot water in the 70's


Posted: 01/07/2008 17:39:05
By: Rob 2601
Sponsorship and boat names is not an issue as sailwave and other programmes accommodate it.
So the results carrying the Sponsors name and and ST results the boat name if required would be no issue. We have 2 multiple sponsors in the B14s and have accommodated so would think this not a problem. On another note, it will be interesting to get a straw pole and see how the industry guys feel about the sponsorship issue as opposed to the folks on the outside as the latter ones are the people who will benefit the most. Though not at Salcombe, hope most will have read the article and if managed correctly but doing limited Category C, all will be in a win win situation directly or in-directly. Had soem interesting sailing at the weekend and both Pete and I are looking forward to having our own ship and becoming part of the circuit again. So hope we get a good attendance at teh AGM and hopefully see all at Salcombe.
BFN


Posted: 01/07/2008 20:04:18
By: barnsie
Mark:  I suspect the B14 rules do not say anything about boat names.  The Merlin ones do.  My question was - can you rename your boat for an event - and can you have duplicate names?  If we are going to go down this route we must make sure ALL our rules reflect the decision

I have not made up my mind on the Cat C issue. I look forward to hearing the discussion at the AGM and being persuaded one way or the other.


Posted: 01/07/2008 20:18:35
By: JC
In the 60's when thingd were rather more repressed Graham Leech from WOBYC had a succesion of Double Bunk - Ditch Cap - Pistol Dawn and two other so bad I fear to put them down even these days!


Posted: 01/07/2008 21:31:18
By: Ancient Geek
John Shame i will not be there as I fel it will be a lively debate with hopefully some very constructive discussion form both camps.
BFN


Posted: 01/07/2008 22:42:50
By: barnsie
Regarding names; there is the little matter of the Boats RYA Certificate.


Posted: 01/07/2008 22:53:04
By: .
An interesting debate, helped me make my mind up that we don't need Cat C. We sail an amateur sport in beautiful boats, event sponsorship etc. which benefits all is already catered for. 
I've heard some yes alturistic arguments about more secondhand kit filtering through and enabling younger sailors to afford boats which are both probably red herrings. I suspect the majority of proposers and supporters have ulterior motives.


Posted: 02/07/2008 08:50:17
By: IO
Whatever next?  Just when carbon has become all the fashion for spinnaker setting Barnsie thinks it would be interesting to get a straw pole!!


Posted: 02/07/2008 08:52:49
By: Garry R
I attended the launch party of Blow Up Doll (Chris Sarrington's boat IIRC - where did he go, and what about Matthew Knott, who only sailed about 3 times a season but always won when he did) at Ranelagh a few years back complete with blow up doll, which fortunately my then 10 year old daughter did not ask me about.


Posted: 02/07/2008 09:19:56
By: Andrew M
There seem to be more red herrings (Ian Brown I seem to remember - or was that Paul Gilbert) on this thread every time I look.

The boat name issue is certainly nothing to do with Cat C

I agree with Mags rant though - strange he should feel so strongly as I recall some issue with Harry Potter related names when he first joined the class - can anyone remember the details?


Posted: 02/07/2008 15:00:14
By: Pat Blake
The one post that is definitely not a red herring is the one from David Chivers. David clearly knows the problems and has spelt out the issues very clearly, thank you David.

The only thing I would like to add to his comments is about event sponsors advertising:

There is clearly no appetite to put stickers on hulls - I agree with that

Ideally we could persuade the RYA/ISAF to allow us to put event sponsors logos on the mainsail - I sense that a majority would like that. But it is not very likely that we will get that dispensation.

If we voted to allow Cat C we could ASK competitors to put event logos on mainsails (we couldn't make it compulsory), most competitors would support a sponsor for an event as long as the logos peeled off again easily.

We should vote on Saturday in favour of limited category C to give the committee a mandate to explore all these possibilities. If we don't we close down many opportunities.


Posted: 02/07/2008 15:33:53
By: Pat Blake
Pat
The placement of the event sponsor's branding is very much a class thing and would think this a minor problem. Main reason for it being in place is for ease of identification when sizing and ordering branding for classes. The Fevas and RS fleets in general add to the mainsail and president has been set if the RYA were to consider a challenge which would be pointless on their part, as the reason would not be defendable. Only concern they would have is size and whether it would encroach on the boats identification marks. Having all on the mainsail would be a good idea as this would enhance the brands when photographs are taken.
Think Dave's comments were good.
BFN


Posted: 02/07/2008 16:11:07
By: Barnsie
Mark,
The sort of branding that I have in mind doesn't need to be big.
As for RS classes, many of them as I understand it don't have class rules and what rules they have don't comply with the ISAF standards.
We of course are a proper National class and do things the right way! If the Feva and Tera have set a president then great!
By the way I think most other national classes have gone for Category C - 12's, Firefly etc


Posted: 02/07/2008 16:44:38
By: Pat Blake
President - precident? Who cares only Obama, Clinton and Mcaine.


Posted: 02/07/2008 17:47:06
By: .
Or even precedent.


Posted: 02/07/2008 19:37:26
By: .
Hi Pat
Was not aware of that but was going to dic=scuss on Friday with Pete Vincent in Plymouth prior to the Fat Face Night Race. Anyone in the area and not at Salcombe, one not to miss.
BFN


Posted: 02/07/2008 21:05:39
By: barnsie
Actually its quite sad that only 25 14's did pow this year. 15 boats were sailed by helms in the 40-50 age bracket who were definately in the class of '88 when the bowsprits first appeared. I remember doing POW in 1991 in Torquay 138 boats. Just ask yourselves the question, what has happened???????? They have tried to be all skiffy and compete with more pro boats 49's etc, sailing has diversified, sailing has become cheaper than 14 sailing. Putting silly stickers on your main and pretending you are russell coutts when you are really a double glazing salesman doesn't do anything for a class, look at the B14's , they look like the ads in the middle of a good movie...how many people like to see that. Please preserve the Merlin class with its amateur status and don't make your gorgeous boat look like those shocking B 14's.Keep it clean and keep some dignity, there is zero value in sponsoring a merlin sailor, because there is actually no such thin g at this level. The only people who care about the results and pictures are the sailors themselves..face it and stop kidding yourselves and if you can't afford it sail an RS200...but in the meantime preserve the club sailing, travel less to maintain the strength of the class.....the end!!


Posted: 03/07/2008 02:35:10
By: club sailor
I'd like to mock up some examples, so we can get a visual feel for this idea. Here are two quick-n-dirty image hacks.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/misc&file=bow_advert.jpg

Posted: 03/07/2008 10:55:06
By: Mags
If I have got the placement/sizing wrong, compared to what the proposed rule change is, please let me know (I get so lost reading the above!).

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/misc&file=mainsail_advert.jpg

Posted: 03/07/2008 10:55:53
By: Mags
Sorry if I missed this, but is it possible to vote by proxy. I wont be at Salcombe (and hence the AGM) this year.


Posted: 03/07/2008 11:26:08
By: JohnB (3404)
A thank you to Mags  -  your pics are worth a thousand words.


Posted: 03/07/2008 11:37:29
By: PJM
Sadly I no longer sail Merlin Rockets - too sedentary after 25 years flying gliders in comfortable semi-reclining seats. Nevertheless I probably watch and photograph more Merlin Rocket races than than any other non-professionals. Merlin Rockets are very photogenic and now even more so without numbers on their spinnakers. 

I support what 'club sailor' wrote. I think that to go 'cat C' would be a mistake. How many of the 100 boats going to Salcombe this weekend would be likely to benefit from individual sponsorship? I suggest it could be divisive.


Posted: 03/07/2008 11:47:26
By: Robert Harris
But the fact is some boats/teams do already benefit from individual sponsorship, whether other non-sponsored boats/teams know/care about it or not.  Category C relates to the former being able to advertise the fact by displaying their sponsor's logo on the boat and therefore, theoretically, bringing some benefit to the sponsor.


Posted: 03/07/2008 12:06:39
By: Richard (3233)
Mags,

Your 1st image shows an logo in a position for an event sponsors logo, as already permitted under ISAF rule 20.3(d)(i). This rule applies at ALL times, and is not subject to change by national committees, and therefore although several people have become confused in this thread, it is not part of the AGM debate. If used, it has to be applied to all boats in a fleet.

Your 2nd image shows what might occur if DaveC’s Vote 1 is approved: namely that the Logos of Event Sponsors should be allowed on the lower 600mm of mainsails, applied to every boat in the fleet.

I would suggest that you need a third illustration (if you have time!) - namely 2 or 3 boats with different logos in the centre section of the sail. That is the meat of the argument… and forms DaveC’s suggestion for Vote 2 at the AGM.


Posted: 03/07/2008 12:27:41
By: Hugh Maddison
Just to put in my 10p worth...

As an occassional Merlin sailor, mid fleet (on a good day), I am aware that I will not get sponsorship myself, but am fortunate enough to be able to afford to continue my hobby with my own funds (albeit that I will never own a brand new boat or have new sails every season). However, I also rememebr friends when I was at uni who did get small advertising deals which helped considerably with funding a campaign at a time when income was in short supply. These are exactly the kind of people who might be encouraged to sail Merlins (as opposed to another class) if advertising were allowed - students or young people on limited incomes. Once they get into the class, we all know how addictive the sailing is! Therefore, I'm in favour of Vote 2. I'm also in favour of vote 1, because I would prefer an event sticker on my sail to on my hull.


Posted: 03/07/2008 12:33:07
By: Hugh Maddison
A few more pictures as requested. Here's one showing various logos on sails.....though of course I can't be serious for too long and had to add my own touch of humour.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/misc&file=chaos_advert.jpg

Posted: 03/07/2008 14:09:41
By: Mags
A real example now - I think Steve Neal had these sails branded, and they were used on both 'Scantily Clad' and 'Luka' sometimes.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/misc&file=harken_sails_on_two_boats.jpg

Posted: 03/07/2008 14:11:02
By: Mags
And finally, what about the vintage wing? (Sorry Garry!)

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/misc&file=vintage_advert.jpg

Posted: 03/07/2008 14:11:35
By: Mags
Great pics mags! :)


Posted: 03/07/2008 14:36:17
By: Hugh Maddison
Personally, I think these adverts on sails and hulls look awfull. What a shame that the Merlin fleet feel a need to accommodate them.


Posted: 03/07/2008 14:56:05
By: Barry Dunning
I agree 100% Barry but I have to admit that as an Irishman a cask of best stout might just sway me.  On second thoughts Guinness advert/Secret Water/Vintage helm  would have connotations that may not be a good idea. Thanks Mags - enjoyed the fun but count me out of the graffiti on my mainsail.  I think it is a perfect demo of "why not" but more than happy to leave it on the site as aversion therapy!!


Posted: 03/07/2008 15:19:39
By: Garry R
Normally (and I am sorry to say) I wouldn't come along to the AGM but I feel so strongly about not allowing individual sponsorship, that I am seriously considering tearing myself away from the pub.

My two pence; I think if we were talking about advertising global brands like; Apple, Microsoft, RBS, Credit Suisse, Ford etc... then there might be something to gain in terms of brand alignment, but if it's Dave's Chip shop then the opposite is true. I just don't see that there is anything to be gained in cheapening the the brand identity.

IMHO advertising is a scourge of modern living, please let's make our weekends sailing an advert free zone...


Posted: 03/07/2008 15:21:22
By: Another Club Sailor
Barry, I think you will find that it is more to do with funding the huge amount it costs to mount an effective campaign. Even getting a little more in will help the younger up and coming sailors with the huge costs of Merlin Sailing.

Unless you have extremely rich parents or a huge trust fund, the cost of owning and running a boat at the top end of the fleet means that Merlins lose potentially fantastic young sailors to other classes where cost is less prohibitive.

I have watched this debate over the last few weeks with interest and can only think that the CAT C debate will benefit the youth within the class the most, which I can only see as a positive thing.


Posted: 03/07/2008 15:21:52
By: anon
Once again 'Another Club Sailor' hasn't quite got the argument. 

Individual Sponsorship IS PERMITTED TODAY, the issue is about ALLOWING ADVERTISING on the sails and hull.

I don't think the cost of running a Merlin campaign is much different to running a topper, topaz, laser radial campaign.

The costs of running a campaign is essentially the wear an tear on the sails an boats, the cost of transport to events, the cost of accomodation at events, the entry fees.

Apart from the fact that a Merlin has 3 sails to wear out, the cost of Merlin sails is fairly competive.

The depreciation of a Winder merlin is negligible, although the captial cost for a Merlin is higher than a Laser, Topaz etc. but then it is a rather good boat in comparison.

My conclusion is that the barrier to entry is the capital cost of the hull. If Cat-C advertising means that there would be MORE 'loan' boats from the major supplier to the class, then that must be good, on the basis that those suppliers feel they would get better coverage from up and comming talent.

As for having 'extremely rich' parents, as you would put me in that class, supporting my children to sail in Merlins, should be reclassed as parents prepared to invest £8k in a Merlin rather than £4k in a Laser.


Posted: 03/07/2008 15:38:21
By: Alan F
Alan, that is sort of the point, where individual sponsorship currently exists, how does the sponsor really get any benefit? I know Speed Sails have tried to maximise publicity where their boats are winning etc, but otherwise currently I can see no other reason how you would attract individual sponsors who are from outside the sailing world, they get no publicity at all. It is one of the few classes in the world where branding does not exist in any discernable form. Like it or not it would attract more sponsors to the class and inject more money into the class.

Now while I may be a 'club sailor' and not fully understand the ins and outs of the debates, I do very much understand the cost of a Merlin, and sports sponsorship is in fact my profession, and this move with branding would mean a large increase in money going into the class as you are then presenting a media value to the sponsor.


Posted: 03/07/2008 15:47:33
By: anon
I'm not interested in the semantics, individual sponsorship or whatever, the point is sponsorship logo's (I don't believe I have missed the point).  I'm getting on my high horse now, this encouraging youngsters into the fleet is a complete red herring.  What ever happened to learning your trade, when I first started sailing merlins I had a crappy old boat with crappy old sails, that didn't stop me trying to compete with the bigs guns.  Ultimately they were quicker, but the experience was had and I believe it was beneficial.

These days you are talking about giving the youngsters all the gear, why? That's no way for a class to evolve it's roots. In fact it's this kind of quick fix/throw away attitude that engenders the spoilt brats we have to live with today. Call me a stick in the mud but I say no...


Posted: 03/07/2008 16:06:54
By: Another Club Sailor
ok, stick in the mud...JOKING

Its not that we want to 'spoil' the youngsters, its simply that we want to encourage the best young sailors to be part of the Merlin Fleet. The displaying logo's etc makes the Merlin Class a more attractive sponsorship propostion, and means more money in the class as a whole which benefits everyone.

Now if a young 'hotshot' can get as much of the cost of running a merlin sponsored out, I think thats great and the class will be more competitive.

Why should youngsters in Merlins not have the same benfits as youth in other sports who are sponsored to the hilt from a very young age?


Posted: 03/07/2008 16:11:36
By: anon
This is total fantasy....


Posted: 03/07/2008 16:18:33
By: Another Club Sailor
Should we perhaps think about voting for a trial period, say 2 years?


Posted: 03/07/2008 16:29:12
By: Another Club Sailor
Trial periods are always good...As they say it will either work or it won't!

Thats pretty deep that!


Posted: 03/07/2008 16:32:06
By: anon
I'll admit I agree with Barry Dunning and all who support his view, however the arguments of media value might; just might; begin to run if the class got the column inches in the National Press that we got in the 1050's 60's and 70's. -(Research www.timesonline.co.uk/archive.)-
The appearance; in a timely manner of results in even the yachting press or even on this web site is erratic to say the least.
What some are suggesting is charity, no harm in that but a return on sponsorship; class or individual; would I guess be doubtful with the exception of Marchland Petit who probably make a lot on holiday lets for Salcome, and are saying thank you.


Posted: 03/07/2008 16:50:57
By: Ancient Geek
I'm all for it - if it can be worked in someway to boost numbers attending open meetings (not at the expense of Merlin Clubs) then it can only be good for the class.

A fleet of Merlins visiting clubs always generates interest, the fleet having many admirers - these admirers should be sailing Merlins not admiring them.

I have little chance of generating any personal sponsorship but would be very happy to benefit from class sponsorship on the back of general promotion of the Merlin fleet.

More interest has to be good!


Posted: 03/07/2008 19:44:05
By: Carl W
Minor point for AG, Merchant Petit sell houses, they don't rent out hliday cottages as far as I know, that is the domain of Coast & Country and Salcombe Holiday Homes, but there is an idea for a couple of comanies to 'tap' for Salcombe sponsorship.

For Another Club Sailor, for spoilt brats you should look to the RYA circuit, Oppies/Toppers/Laser Radials, not the 'traditional' classes to find the true poilt brats/pushy parents syndrom.


Posted: 03/07/2008 20:04:57
By: Alan F
Mags, what a dreadful thing you've done to my photograph of the chaos during Hampton's 2006 open meeting. It demonstrates how awful Merlin Rockets might look if logos and adverts are allowed on sails.


Posted: 03/07/2008 20:36:38
By: Robert Harris
Couldn't agree more Robert. Another example of what professionalism brings to the class; remember the recent Salcombe protest where a well known professional protested the Salcombe race box because the sailing instructions stated only the race officer could decide whether a boat was over the line and not a spotter... in the event the racer was reinstated.  Do we really want to encourage more of this type of behaviour... the pressures on when you have a sponsor to please


Posted: 03/07/2008 21:01:30
By: Another Club Sailor
Tying this thread with that of Vintage and its posts on fuel costs, how about "starting money" not a free entry (All sorts of liability issues there.) but a "hand out" in cash or fuel vouchers to any one who at least comes to the line in all races and attends the prizegiving as contribution to "fuel". Shell, BP, Jet and Esso have made similar gestures to the Horse World (All disciplines.) for many years.


Posted: 03/07/2008 21:40:53
By: Ancient Geek
Sadly our friend the club sailor who had previously presented a compelling argument has just conveniently confused the facts with a good story in order to support his position.  Find the out the facts, because the only one that i could find was that someone who works in the marine industry filled in a protest form and won.  The rest of what you wrote was fabrication.  Ask the Protestor, the PRO, the witnesses, read the Facts Found on the form, or if that is not good enough maybe the photographic evidence.

Anyway despite that rubbish, this is a pretty good thread overall. Cat C has meant nothing to many Classes which have adopted. It can make the sport cheaper but in reality is probably a non issue. I would likely abstain but the rubbish posted by club sailor encourages me to vote for Cat C as why should it not be given a go for a period of time.


Posted: 03/07/2008 21:43:46
By: .
You may not like it and facts may have become a little confused in last nights haze of wine, but I suggest you read some of your own drivel Dot man/woman before you start criticising my anonymous crap.


Posted: 04/07/2008 07:59:24
By: Another Club Sailor
Having spent both time and money in the Merlin and B14 fleets over the last umpteen years, I think that the sponsorship of the latter fleet has not really introduced a great "impetus" to their fleet. Yes, second hand sails might be available - but these will have the branding still attached, thus lengthening the sponsor's involvement. Remember that the B14's also have the added benefit of a World Championship in Sydney Harbour and events at Lake Garda to give those sponsor photographs added "wow".

I recall one Merlin sailor, a few years ago now, sailing after the races at a Nationals with logoed sails followed by a photoboat for the requisite photograph. Nothing illegal about that as the logos were removed for the races. If you want to cover your boat or sails in stickers, fine, just do it in your own time. If the class gets sponsorship for an event and we all have "event sponsorship" stickers, then I am fine with that but I don't really think that the class needs the money.

I still cannot really understand the return for a sponsor in a non-televised fleet. For what it's worth I am in the Marine Industry and have had sponsored boats in the past, but in this instance I am in the "no" camp.


Posted: 04/07/2008 08:21:13
By: Andy Hay - Enchantment 3386
In response to Andy's observation of the B14s. If he was to now be an active member of the fleet, he will see that over the last 2 - 3 years, where we have overhauled the way the class is run and how we feed equipment through to the less well off members of the fleet, he will see that in fact the sponsorship available has benefitted most on the circuit and those buying secondhand boats. Boats where sponsorship has played a big part in enabling them to compete at the level we are running the front of the fleet at, is Credo two youths (now 17 and 18) and the likes of CSC at the other end of the age spectrum. It does work and it has helped rejuvinate the class to the point where most are now running with current sails etc. Only issue we now have is supply of new hulls and carbon masts. The prior is being addressed this winter with potentially more B14s being built over the next 2 years in the UK than Merlins. I use potentally, as we do not know how the Credut Crunch will effect some teams. Carbon masts are being bought as people upgrade but cost GBR 1700 similar to a Jacko mast.
As a result of this big family concept, we all look out for each other and this has created a very strong bond in the fleet. At the Nationals, 2 boats shattered rigs. We all met them as they came ashore and within an hour we had both ready to relaunch with better kit than they had broken when awaiting the first start (most of the kit was top teams second string sponsored gear).
So on the B14 front, it has been a win win situation and we are very pleased with what we have achieved in the last 2 years. As a class we get 1/3 of all boats built since 1996 attending one or more opens. What percentage of Merlins post NSM4 attend STs.
Its time to take one's head out of the safety zone (old known margins) and look above the parapet and see how other classes have addressed the issue and made it work for them.
Have a good week and Salcombe. Looking to be a real hum dinger on the first 2 days.
BFN


Posted: 04/07/2008 10:52:20
By: barnsie
I fully support Barnsie's comment re positive impact on B14 fleet. My son has not only been able to update his sails but sponsor has funded his entire travel,entries,and accommodation for this season's circuit. He is 17 and has crew of 16yrs. Sponsorship deal negotiated by 17 yr old...what a result for me, I need every penny I have, to buy second hand sails for my Merlin off those who offlaod them when they get their first crease!


Posted: 04/07/2008 16:25:00
By: B14 Dad and Merlin Sailor
This all sounds very noble but the facts & arguments are not very objective. If the B14's are going to be used as the "bench mark" EXACTLY
1)How many are there?
2)How many members does the class association have?
3)How many & what proportion attend events?
4)What is their build numbers year by year?
5)How many are fully or meaningfully sponsored i.e. how much money do they actually receive?
6)How many simply carry their owner’s business logos?
7) How many are properly competitive?


Posted: 04/07/2008 17:20:22
By: do
here here. 
Why is there such an absurd desire to allow plastic stickers on boats because that's all it is...it's an ego thing.
do we believe that Barns would not go sailing and play golf if he didn't have stickers on his main
do we believe that if one of our own broke something then we wouldn't rally round and help out.....what the heckes that got to do with stickers.
also if you look at the photos of the 14's none of them carry stickers anymore.....probably because they are not allowed to at Itchenor!! as that's about the only place they sail, at least what's left of the class after they tried the sticker's , i'm a professional, complete rubbish
come on get a grip and vote this ridiculous idea out and concentrate on sailing a very strong strong class. the end


Posted: 04/07/2008 19:06:37
By: club sailor who is not anther club sailo
First of all the Assymetric fleets are smaller in number due to the fact that they are not suitable for many clubs especially where there is a speed restriction. There are 160 sound boats in the Euro fleet with most of the them are in the UK. Nearly all have been built post 1997 with all bar 4 boat's hulls capable of winning events subject to kit used and who sails them. Therefore this has given a cheap entry to high performance sailing with the new owners concentrating on updating kit. Three years ago the class had probably 35 - 40 boats sailing actively. We now have nearly 100 boats actively racing with 85 of them attending one or more events in the last year. Growth has been so successful that we are now scratching around for secondhand boats. So this year we are looking to build 7 - 9 boats is the UK to keep the momentum moving forward. The B14 has bucked the trend and is the senior person's only high performance assymetric fleet that's growing at a decent number other than the 29er and possibly the 49er number internationally but the latter's association is non existent in the UK. So before knocking the B14, just think about what you are going to say and you'll realise that this class is on the up in a big way. So for what is currently considered by most to be an exciting boat to sail, with an evolving international presence in Europe and the Antipodes,  the model we have adopted has worked and will work in the future. The comment made by Liam is an excellent example of what has happened as we as a class, have put in place a great environment to compliment a great product.
Merlins are doing well due to the fact they have good residual value and there are 1000's in existence. I remember the 1990s when a handeful were built. Classes usually have peaks and troughs and this is due to developments, supply and new blood issues. If the Merlin stays as it is, at some point in the future it is due for a big fall. This may be the NSM2 - 4 to Canterbury Tales scenario where values floored overnight and it took years to recover. Spread the costs and give flow with progressive developments and supply of money and iron out the peaks and troughs.
So Club Sailor declare yourself and lets know more about who you are and why you have such a negative approach to Category C as you as you put only sail at your local club which would not be effected by this vote unless a local business was to sponsor a boat a club level that never appears at an event of any type. However, if someone said to you would you like a 3 month old mint set of sails at 30% discount you'll grab the offer. So get a life and look at what is happening in the sailing world across the fleets. Time to go as we're busy here at the Fat Face Night Sail in Plymouth.


Posted: 05/07/2008 08:32:31
By: Barnsie
OK, perhaps the Y&Y Nationals attendance list isn't the best (or only) measure of the health of a class, but with only 22 boats at this years B14 champs, things are not looking that rosy.  The general trend also appears to be downwards - not exactly a great advert for the supposed benefits of Cat C!

That said, the B14s are very good at promoting themselves at Winter pursuits and ensuring their open events are always well publicised - contrast with the Merlin coverage of well attended Silver Tiller events like Rutland, Weymouth etc etc. Are we getting too complacent???

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=42&c=4

Posted: 05/07/2008 10:36:24
By: Lie, damn lies and statistics
I do not know what "Barnsie" does as a day job, but perhaps we should borrow some advice from Lyndon Johnson and have him inside our tent, he gets lots of publicity for the B14, come on Merlin organisers, the press are so short of copy, that is not Footy, cricket, Lewis Hamilton or tennis, if you send it they'll print it!
Having said that the Merlin Rocket Class has always seemed "old money" (No matter how thread bare the carpets or moth eaten the suits they were the best once, and when new things are still bought they are the best.) and other (Especially Designers and Manufacturers One Designs.) classes seem rather more arriviste (The sort of classes that had to buy their own furniture!To borrow a phrase from Alan Clarke.)
Its a good rule if its called classy it's is anything but, but the Merlin Rocket has "IT", always has; always will; tamper with it's raispn d'etre at your peril.
It's the AGM tonight id Sye Blake has done nothing else he's popbably ensured a good turn out after the sorry attendance in the past few years. Should be a lively debate.


Posted: 05/07/2008 12:10:46
By: ...
I had always thought that Rule changes should either be about closing a loophole or bringing benefit to the entire class. Personally, I am yet to be convinced about any class benefit of opening up the Cat C, but then again, I have an evening's pass for tonight and assuming I can get through the floods and gales (it's a bit fresh in Devon at the moment), I will be willing to listen to the arguments tonight.

The Merlin Class is on a high at the moment. Old boats are enjoying a revival - yes, us lot in the NSM4 generation, we're having a whale of a time with our old sheds.

As I said in an earlier post, if you want the stickers on your sail for your sponsors, fine, just do it in your own time.


Posted: 05/07/2008 15:18:42
By: Andy Hay - Enchantment 3386
Barrs..just get it out of your head ...it is not SPONSORSHIP. When I want sails I buy them from my friendly sailmender, I don't want free sails in return for stickers!! When the tyres on my car wear out....I buy new ones, i don't go uo my highstreet looking for donors in return for a sticker on my car door.It's noy big and it's not clever!!


Posted: 05/07/2008 22:13:34
By: club sailor
The B14 web site results page would seem to indicate the following:

Association Membership:
2006 (??) 2007 (50) 2008 (48)

Boats competing in one or more TT events:
2006 (36) 2007 (39) 2008 (35)


Posted: 06/07/2008 03:49:34
By: do
The AGM voted in favour of the Rule change (29 for, 23 against, 9 abstentions, I think), but did not get the required 75% of the forum to effect the change. The issue regarding person versus event sponsorship is perhap key and the Rule change did not clearly make the distinction between the two.

I think that most people could support something that brings benefit to the class as a whole, i.e. event advertising, it is the individual sponsorship that presents a problem. If the Rule was better written to make a distinction between the two, then that would probably have been passed. Unfortunately, the AGM rules are such that you can only vote for the proposal in front of you, no amendments were possible "on the night".

Perhaps something to revisit next year (or if you feel so strongly about it, request an EGM earlier!).


Posted: 06/07/2008 08:02:48
By: Andy Hay - Enchantment 3386
Hi In response to the query on attendance numbers throughout the year, the TT series is only part of the picture and the class also run a Winter Pursuit team which had many boats not in the TT series, Lord Birket and other events. THis is where the numbers come from. With regard to the Nationals. as the forecast for the weekend was 40+ knots. the northern and most of the western boats did not attend due to very little chance of sailing. They were correct as the Nationals lasted 3.5 hours with 4 races sailed in a tight window between 2 systems. This meant we lost 15 boats this year and we had a similar problem last year. As a result we have now reverted to a 4 day Nationals in Plymouth and Europeans in Carnac. This should hopefully address that problem. PR wise the B14 is very strong and so numbers are increasing. My argument on the Category C was to generate a similar model for the Merlins and still believe it will be a win win situation. 
Agree with Andy on the review and think we should look at it again next year in a slightly different format.
Would liked to have attended the AGM but the B14s were committed to the Fat Face night sail in Plymouth. Good news is we won the event and the Association is much richer for the event.
See you all soon.
BFN


Posted: 06/07/2008 10:42:23
By: Barnsie
Don’t really want to spend time on the internet looking through race results to compile the statistics. The point is that the information exists so in future let’s have the FACTS & not wishful thinking.

However, since we seem to be using the B14 as a “Bench Mark” is it not true that due to poor open meeting attendances clubs are insisting on either guaranteed numbers or sharing thus the B14 class has been forced to shift its emphasis towards multi-class events?

Is it not also true that it is extremely unlikely many people in the Merlin class will attract a MEANINGFUL level of sponsorship & therefore those that do not will effectively have an even more difficult task of competing against the few that do?

So, if we are going to have this important discussion for the future well being of our class (rather than the self interest of a few individuals) lets ensure that the information we use is as accurate as possible. That way we have a chance of making the best decision for the long term viability of the Merlin Class.


Posted: 07/07/2008 10:41:56
By: do
Not sur who except Barnsie has decided the B14 should be a bencj mark, the Merlin Rocket has historically been a leader and innovator not a follower of fashion.


Posted: 07/07/2008 11:45:49
By: ...
The B14s primarily have there own TT meetings but also share the 9er brand events and where possible run with the Musto Skiffs as they are like minded people and the classes work closely on projecting sailing forward throughout the year. They also enjoy partying with us as we certainly know how to make that part work very well. We are at Weymouth next weekend as are the 29ers in a Eurocup and Tassa. However, the B14 and 29ers are a class in their own rights and not part of the TASSA setup. The event share with them is probably a one off.
Bench mark is not neccerily what was indicated. Working model of how to market your fleet successfully to the outside world not just other sailors is what it is a about, and in that case the B14, if not currentlyt he best in the UK, is curtainly one of the best. If you have a good product as the Merlin is, never disputed, then market awareness and branding is the chink in the armour and this is where the B14 is at a far higher level. There have been discussions between several of us with regard to this and some issues will be addressed within the current frame.
BFN


Posted: 07/07/2008 12:11:08
By: Barnsie
OK. Enough about the B14 comparisons.

The facts as I understand them is that currently under Cat. A, we can have stickers imposed upon us at events (class santioned or multiclass)that have sponsorship and the Notice of Race includes the relevant Rules. The stickers would have to be placed in the forward 25% of the hull. No "individual" advertising is allowed. No room for debate here.

What I have been thinking about is the fact that under Cat. C, we might be allowed to frame the Rules such that EVENT advertising could be placed on alternative locations - jib, lower portion of the mainsail, boom, etc. This would obviously be under the event organisers remit and could be optional on the behalf of the competitor. This could potentially attract sponsors that would swell the coffers of the Class to be used for all our benefit.

We could also frame the Rule in such a way that INDIVIDUAL advertising could be precluded, although this would require careful wording and agreement with the RYA and ISAF (I believe).

This is why I voted against the proposed Rule at the AGM - the proposed wording did not clearly make the distinction between the two "types" of advertising.

Please note that I have tried to carefully frame this posting, using the more accurate terminology.

As I suggested earlier in this thread, I believe that the class would be in favour of a freer Rule to allow class event advertising - thus making us potentially more interesting to potential sponsors at Nationals, Salcombe, etc. and hence give further funding opportunities to the Class (and the membership as a whole) - but still restrains from sanctioning individual advertising.


Posted: 07/07/2008 22:59:24
By: Andy Hay - Enchantment 3386
29 votes in favour from a membership of 500(?) is hardly a ringing endorsement is it?  Do we really need to revisit?


Posted: 07/07/2008 23:50:52
By: .
Andy Hay and . are quite right.Enough of B14's.


Posted: 08/07/2008 09:04:37
By: .
If it's true there were only 29 votes out of a potential 500+ this is pretty dismal to put it mildly. What is needed, and I have said before, is a vote via internet/web, or by proxy. Surely this is something the committee can look into?


Posted: 08/07/2008 09:23:34
By: Richard Battey
Well it wasnt out of 500 since only 90 boats go to Salcombe, and I expect most crews are not full members (so no voting rights). 

If you read above it says 29 people voted FOR, 23 AGAINST. Add on 9 abstentions and it seems 61 turned up, which isn't bad seeing as AGMs in general are seen throughout the world as very boring.

Email voting is only as insecure as postal voting I believe, so we will have a chat about this at the next committee meeting.


Posted: 08/07/2008 10:26:31
By: Mags
Members have a log in on this site, which should be secure enough surely, unlikely that Gerrymandering on Merlin Rocket business would happen? Unless it was another class trying to influence the honorably independent Merlin Rocket diaspora.


Posted: 08/07/2008 13:51:45
By: .
One option is to ask all those with email to register and send out their code to use with thier membership No. This will remove most options. Also worth having at least 2 adjudicators. I would suggest JC, GGGG and PB.
It would give us the first chance to get a full picture of people's views and also potentially be a way to help with the owner database.
BFN


Posted: 08/07/2008 14:13:17
By: Barnsie
To get into certain areas of the site - some of the articles you have (or had) to be a member and type in some code to give you access.  Could this not be applied to online voting.  ie you have to be a member of MROA to get in to the voting area?


Posted: 08/07/2008 14:42:25
By: Garry R
Absolutely Garry; why complicate it; KISS.


Posted: 08/07/2008 16:30:29
By: .
JUst though I'd point out that: the owner data base exists and beyond keeping on record in a rather draconian way a members stance on a subject I can see no added value in Barnsies suggestion beyond that of on line voting, which has to be secure enough using the sites log-in facility. I can vote in my local elections that way and so far we have a fair result (All Conservative!) in our local councilors!


Posted: 09/07/2008 11:55:14
By: .
RE fat face sail how did the B14's win it?

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=142316

Posted: 09/07/2008 12:17:26
By: Y&Y On Line Reader
By paddling fastest.


Posted: 09/07/2008 12:58:48
By: Mags
Actually no!!!

By tugin harder, wanging further and an loads of balls!!! hahaha

Our paddlers were actually pretty rubbish (Barnsie!!!)

Curious to bring this up on a post about Merlin sponsorship!!!


Posted: 09/07/2008 17:35:23
By: Blackie
Hardly a recemendation for the boat then.


Posted: 10/07/2008 10:28:44
By: .
Probably because Barnsie keeps banging on about B14's!


Posted: 10/07/2008 17:54:37
By: .
I've just spent ages reading all the above comments,seems to get a bit heated at times. Alans comment of bringing young sailers into the class is very true. It looks like Taxi has just won Salcombe, now I know he has sponsors ( Speed sails and Gill I think ). He also has loads of sailing talant but would he be sailing a Merlin without this help and I am sure the class need this kind of young sailer to maintain the high profile of the class.
Is Taxi the youngest to win Salcombe week ? one for brains to tell us.


Posted: 11/07/2008 10:07:34
By: another observer
Would have helped if the 29ers had not knicked the bung from the boat so late starting but still nearly got back to 3rd. Nationals attendance was 27. Thanks for alerting the mistake. Talked to Mark Jardine and now sorted. This weekend is looking to not be to bad and as at WPNSA should be interesting to see how the Moths have faired. 9 races in 2 days.


Posted: 11/07/2008 10:41:31
By: barnsie
Kevin Haynes


Posted: 11/07/2008 12:34:37
By: David
Kevin Haynes


Posted: 11/07/2008 12:36:28
By: David

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