Would a small logo placed on the boat or on a limited area of the sail ruin the future of the class or even the class aesthetic?
I certainly think it would be worth an discussion.

At Tamesis Club's Elizabeth Cup Firefly open meeting last Sunday one competitor sported Craftinsure logos on his mainsail and clothing.  I don't know what the Firefly rules/regulations are regarding sponsorship but it certainly didn't look ugly or out of place on the sail.  If anything it looked quite striking, especially on a boat that was about 60 years old.

Personally I can't understand why sponor logos are not allowed to be displayed on hulls sails etc,the current rule seems rather archaic. I work for an internation construction cost consultant and if they were to sponsor me they would certainly expect maximum exposure and not just their orporate logo tucked away somewhere at the top of a daily report or website. Barnsie in the other thread has hit the issue regarding sponsorship square on and it needs to be addressed by the committee PDQ.

Sponsorship reduces the cost of sailing. Branding the boat to promote some sailing related product (to get some freebies) or running your boat through your business's books will save some people money. Saving some people money will encourage some people to sail the boats. I personally have no vesteed interest in this but having sailed other classes I do not see the asthetic argument. The merlin is percieved as a rich man's boat. Disallowing sponsorship helps that perception.

Hi Guys
One issue with offering sponsorship is that if a title sponsor comes forward, the only place that the fact they are sponsoring the MR Champs can be displayed is in the dinghy park, club and results assuming the daily reports go in and final report is also published in credible detail in the press. Last year this did not happen is currently the Achilles heel when going out for sponsorship as the Sponsor is being offered much more from other classes and sports compared to the MR. As any accountant will tell you, some of the sponsorship is tax deductable but process has to be shown and not having those nice photos of boats sailing with the sponsors name on them, is a real downturn for any sponsor. For category C classes it is difficult and will be more so in the near future, so for the Merlins, it will be doubly so. When sponsorship is offered, it then becomes the class's responsibility to offer return on the investment and sadly that has not been the case in recent times. The better the class is at giving exposure the more likely the MR will get a qaulity sponsor as it has much to offer.
Mark also points out that the MR is percieved as a rich man's boat and yes a lot of people think that, so the class has missed out and will in its current state, miss out on possible new members on the fringe. The Firefly was Rob Cage in 18 carrying last Year's MR Nats Sponsor on his mainsail and kit.
Most boats that are sponsored are usually only given sponsorship up to max one suite of sails or less. There are ways to make it work very effectively for both the class and membership but to get it right, we need to be open minded and set clear boundaries when starting out. That would be the easy part if all were to say yes lets go for it.
On a closing note, as busily involved in running the B14 class, MR for me is a means of escape from the admin and a way to enjoy a week's sailing without hassle. So firmly down to others to organise/do reports.
Bye for now
Barnsie

As someone who works in an industry where sponsorship is not available, due to legal restraints, I do look jealously around the parks at the fully logo laden boats. I think that allowing individual sponsorship does produce a double tier feeling. Then when the unsponsored boat appears in the top few there can be pressure from the sponsored boats to get one, I remember Barnsie talking about this in his L5000 days. I have also seen this in the 18's too.
I have recently sailed classes where there is only class sponsorship allowed, and as this benefits all competitors is a much more acceptable the corinthean spirit of the sport. Despite the subtle sponsorship from sailmakers etc to the top sailors in any class.
One of the attractions of the MR which I hope to join in the future, is the lack of logos, although badging the boats up for a nationals, or circuit sponsor, I would be for.

Andy Mck

I think the Category restrictions only apply to events run by the MROA; e.g. ST, Nats, etc. Other events will have there own SIs (though sometimes they state class rules should apply).

It is worth noting I have seen some 'topflight' Merlin sailors with advertising on their hulls and sails in last year or so. No one from the Committee has objected to my knowledge. I suppose sailors do so at their own risk as technically speaking other competitors could have them thrown out (not that it would be very sporting). However saying that if we don't all follow this restriction what is the point in having it in the rules???

Food for thought.

Wasn't there a comment a few weeks back about some advertising on sails at The Warming Pan?
I think that before approaching sponsors the class should fix on its image. To what demographic group does it aspire to belong? Sponsors would want to know.

As has happened at other classes events what happens when there is a clash of sponsor, eg company A become the title sponsor of the event but individuals have their own deals and as such wont display the title sponsors logo especially if this happens to be say 2 competing sailmakers ?

Also dont lose sight of why companies would sponsor events, its not because they are really nice but what are they getting back for their money?

Is it fair for competitiors who break this rule not to be protested out, having been on a boat with full sponsorship new sails regularly and for nothing make a huge difference over a year !!!

Problem is, the guys at the front get the sponsers and the guys at the back don't. So it only stands to make the rich richer and the poor no better off!

There is I think a confusion in discussing this.

Sponsorship as a whole, is entirely honourable, and I wish those trying to get it every success, but is split into two different things.

Firstly it is the sponsorship of Events or the Class as a whole and it is here the sponsor will be looking for a “return” on their investment possibly as a raised profile with their target group; and it is here that the class needs to be clear what its demographics are, and where the bigger sponsorship deals are likely to be and rather more complicated and tied down too. (The Laser SB3 and VW Toureg come to  mind.)
Or:
Looking for direct business as a result, (Local Estate Agents or Breweries spring to mind.), this can also be a “Thank You” for business given.

Secondly the sponsorship of individuals either from vendors to the class, (Builders, Sail-makers etc.) looking for results that lead to business from others or the vendors themselves using their own products for the same reasons.

Neither is new to sailing and the second has been a matter of fact, since at least the very early 1960’s.

Various attempts were made by those not recipients of the largess to stop it, and attempts to prevent the richer members “Buying Success” none were successful and the price limit was abandoned  with the result at least in part that those who were perceived to be attempting to buy success could subsidise those being given subsidised sailing. With thevreultant inflation of cost. Others managed, (And doubtless still do.) to put it through the books of their companies which is a matter between them, their fellow shareholders (If any.) and the Revenue.

None worked. Sailing, especially in a boat like the Merlin Rocket is not a sport where success can be bought, to suggest otherwise is to cheapen the talent and dedication of those who win. Though I accept it is not possible to win without the right kit, and the time to practice too. It was ever thus and always will be.

There should be no conflict of interest between the general sponsorship and that of individuals.

As I have bought all my Merlins (and a Firefly) on a well known auction site and restored them I wonder if a letter to ebay and West System epoxy might just swing it.......

Sponsorship for individuals is usually a limited amount and if a sailmaker carries sponsorship on his sails or not will make little difference to his turnover of his individual kit. For those purchasing, it may mean that they buy more and turn over kit prior to it becoing uncompetitive so filtering their benefits down to others. The Merlin class as a whole buy new sails as relatively few good (current suits) new change hands on the website due to there high value/investment to the average budget. Classes where category C class sailors sail, often tend to trade their sails whilst still in very good condition, so spreading the benefits of their gains to others.
With regard to big budgets, the MR class has always had them and will always have individuals on high incomes who are prepared to spend. The thought of a sponsored boat going head to head with one of these campaigns on budget is highly unlikely as their budget would never match that of the high income earner. 
What it will do is increase distribution of good secondhand kit and possibly a few extra boat orders, but primarily enable the marginal competitor to attend more events. We certainly could have doen with some form of backing in 1996 - 1998, so enabling us to do a fuller ST circuit. I am sure there are many out there in the same situation and they are the ones that would be the bigger beneficaries. 
This also leads to greater awareness and potential title sponsors assuming a class association is on the ball and prepared to give the sponsor a return on their investment.
So you would have a win win situation for most of any fleet if well thought out and setup.
BFN
Barnsie

So what Barnsie is looking for is charity?

I would vote against, purely for the reason that no-one in the mid or bottom end of the fleet would ever get any sponsorship, so it seems biased the wrong way.

I do not think you can legislate against anyone being given kit - or sold it on advantagous terms or being subsidised, so they can use it and be seen to when winning, you can only prevent them advertising it on their boats or clothing, beyond manufacturers or vendors labels. Sailmakers especially are very quick to announce sucess of their product and fair play to them.
I doubt any sponsor of the class as whole would give each rabbit in the fleet new sails.
A few more lottery sails at regattas might help a bit.
Surely a logical extension of Mags position is a price limit and a limit on the number of sails/masts that may be purchased in a year. With the current lack of alternative builders the concept of a new boat for every regatta need not arise just yet!

I would be happy to see event sponsors with logo's displayed on sails or hulls with the extra funding reducing entry fees and supplying socials & prizes but would be against sponsorship for individuals.  In fact I remember a Champs at Shoreham a few years ago which was sponsored by BASF, they supplied hull / sail logo's , T shirts for all competitors and they had a reporter from the Times to report every days racing. 
Please note that a select few already receive what is effectively sponsorship with 3 sets of free sails every year.

May I differentiate here between sponsorship and advertising, because I think the two terms are very often treated as interchangeable.

There is no rule or limit to sponsorship - anyone can get it and it does not need to be declared in any way.

Advertising, other than permitted manufacturer's labels, on boats, spars or sails is not permitted by the RYA for the advertising category selected by the class.  Where it has been spotted, quiet words have been exchanged and it has been removed.

The area where competitors may, if they wish, declare that they are being sponsored is on any clothing or kit they they use or wear - either on or off the water.  Jackets, spray tops, t-shirts, boat covers etc are unregulated and there is nothing to prevent this opportunity being exploited to acknowledge support/ sponsorship.

GGGGGGGG

Thanks for clarifying this.

Ah, Graham - thanks for making that clear to me. I hadnt thought it through carefully - the issue is entirely about logos on sails and hulls, and the concept of sponsorship is completely removed.

So does that mean this is a purely aesthetic concern?

Mags it's simple "untill him that hath..shall be given..unto him that hath not...."

Why couldn't all fleet members benefit? They managed to do that in the Feva class this year....

I am not sure of the exact details, but it looks like they have organised a system where: the competitor buys (normal price) a spinnaker with the sponsors logo all over it. In return the sponsor pays the entry fee to the Feva Grand Prix events around the country. In return, they get pictures like these: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=140899

Well no harm to the class at all but I think that sorts out the argument on aesthetic grounds.

No amount of largesse is worth that!

Although the feva's themselves look fairly horrible I think the kite's look great. It is also a good way of recognising who is who in the future when looking back at old pictures(please don't start the debate about numbers on spinni's again!).

Red and green should never be seen.

thought it was blue and green?

Possibly though apart from fashion clashes it's a Naval thing if you can see Red and Green Lights at night it's probably coming straight for you.

I still think that limited advertising on the sails would be a good thing. The Thames A Raters allow it and some of them are well over 100 years old. Lets follow their example and get with the times, I don't see why advertising wouldn't help all ability groups not just the top boys. I am sure the school I work at would buy me a new Kite if I was to have their crest embossed on it and I would quite happily (on a good day) describe myself as a very mid fleet sailor.
Is anyone likely to propose this at the AGM or has the deadline been missed?

Why do we want sponsorship? is it for the money or being linked to a well known business.
My understanding is that for the last few years the Champs have either broken even or made a profit, this being the case why is not the profit from one year put into the next years Champs to bring some benefit to the competitors by lowering the cost of the entry.
 I am quite sure that when this years entry fees were calculated a full entry would not mean a financial loss for the association!

Should not the association with its excess funds 'sponsor' its own champs?

Why indeed; the Merlin Rocket class is relatively small and is made up of very different people from rich pensioners to the not so young  through prosperous middle class young marrieds to yoof. Not attractive to a sponsor. Charity would probably be the only reason anyone would sponsor free-loading the only way sponsorship would be sought.

There is a significant fixed cost associated with operating the Champs.  When we get good turnouts, the surplus is good as we have seen in recent years.  However, this is not always the case and often the surplus is as a direct result of the generousity of sponsors.  

The Committee looks at responsible spending within our overall objective of promoting our Class.  This includes sponsorship, underwriting of race events, social events, training etc. The committee has also considered direct sponsorship of individuals, but this has so far been rejected as non viable.

rest assured, the excellent financial base we enjoy at present, does not go unoticed by your Committee and we continuously look for worthwhile opportunities for the Class membership as a whole.

Thanks
steve

I thought we were talking about advertising on sails and the boat not individual sponsorship.

I think Richard's comment (number 2 on this thread) sums it up quite well.

I agree, as long as the branding is carefully placed and sized I can't see the problem.  I know the class is fairly affluent but surely not so much so that they wouldn't like perhaps £50 off entry, or another few grand to spend on the socials? that wouldn't be an unrealistic amount to raise and I find it unclear what the class has to loose.

To re-iterate Hywel's question, does anyone know if the deadline to propose this for the AGM has passed?

Believe it is May 10th.

63 days before the AGM which I make May 3rd

Either way plenty of time.

Any proposal for this year's AGM must be seconded and sent to me in writing to arrive no later than Saturday 3rd May.

Mike

So get your proposals in all you pro advertising guys and gels.
Action this day.