Topic : America's Cup

Does anyone of you geeks know a forum where I can vent my frustration and dissapointment about the judges decision in todays race!
It was an AMAZING race - We saw it on Sky (a neighbours).
It is on again tonite - worth watching.
Anyway it seemed to me that the wrong boat won (by 1 second), all you get from commentators is banal platidues.
I need to know if anyone else thinks they were robbed.

Posted: 03/07/2007 17:23:24
By: Pat Blake
The best place to bitch about sailing on the web (because them yanks love to wine!) ...especially AC!

Posted: 03/07/2007 17:30:00
By: JM
or more specifically...

Posted: 03/07/2007 17:32:46
By: JM
Hey Pat!
I was watching the final at the RYA with Rod Carr and Gordon Stredwick aka, racing rules guru... Alinghi pulled off a superb top mark trap..something we were practicing in France over the weekend ready for the Match racing Worlds in's one of the hardest traps to pull off because of the complicated rules involved - excellent race though...and yippee!!! The cup stays in Europe thank goodness!!

Posted: 03/07/2007 18:26:43
By: Lucy Burn
Hi Lucy,
I understand what you say but....
Alinghi was right of way yacht and did her dial-down manoeuvre, basically bore away and steer straight at the opposition.
Then NZ bore away to avoid her and Alinghi kept bearing away as if to hit her. Surely there comes a point when the right of boat has to stop turning towards the give way boat that is trying to give way?
If you put yourself in the position of the NZ helmsman - it is hard to know what he could have done more than he did to avoid the penalty.
However if Gordon Stredwick and Rod Carr say it's OK - its OK.

Yes I suppose it is good that the cup stays in Europe - pity there were so many arrogant Americans sailing it.

Anyway see you at Salcombe ... That will definitely stay in Europe

Posted: 03/07/2007 18:55:01
By: Pat Blake
Hey Pat, 
you're right, if Alinghi had hunted TNZ then they would have been in the wrong by not giving TNZ room to avoid the collision. What is allowed is for the starboard boat (Alinghi) to bear away at the port boat as long as they do not go below 90degrees to the wind and set up for it nice and early - they must not alter this course. Alinghi would have been stuffed if TNZ headed up to cross, because if Alinghi had altered their course and headed up too they would have been "hunting" TNZ. Basically the kiwis panicked and bore away but not enough, therefore alinghi was forced to alter course in order to avoid a collision..hope that makes sense!! It would be easier if I had a packet of cigarettes, a salt and pepper shaker and a beer mat obviously!!

Most of the teams out there are made up of Kiwi's and americans sailors anyway!! I would like to see a rule introduced that requires 50% of the crew to hold citizenship of the challengers country that they're sailing will never happen though!

Posted: 03/07/2007 19:15:19
By: Lucy
What about a return to the Challenger having to sail to the venue on its own bottom and be built and crewed and equiped from the challenging country? A return ti J Class would be good and probably not mre expensive a lot prettier too.

Posted: 03/07/2007 19:47:48
By: Techie
Have to admit that I agree with Pat. I tink they were robbed too, and I am not sure I fully understand this rule. I was under the impression that provided the avoiding boat is going astern of the right boat, the right boat cannot alter course? Maybe I am wrong and should read my rules again!

Shame really as it would have made the next couple of races exciting.

Not long now!!!!!!

Posted: 03/07/2007 20:41:40
By: Jez3550
Rules for match racing are subtly different to all other racing, including team racing, and I for one haven't done enough of it to state things with any degree of confidence.  However, the Match Racing Call Book explains many commonly occurring scenarios, which I suspect this one might be.  Check out the link and while away the evening!,HPRcBprr5FjYIfLyLSur4Qcx18HXjgzAQdlx0lGipvwLnE1E

Posted: 03/07/2007 21:45:40
By: deepy
Whatever the subleties of the rules may be, at least this time the cup was won by what the guys did on the water rather than one side having a huge technological advantage. Consequently, the best since 1983. Shame NZ didn't sneak a couple more for a great finale.

Posted: 03/07/2007 23:14:43
By: Carbunkle
Alinghi winning the cup is better for the event long term if the kiwis had won, they wanted to bring back the old nationality rule which would have ruled out new teams like the chinese and the South Aficans. Americas Cup sailing is going like Formula One.. When Ferrari were winning with a German Driver, British Engineer and French Team Manager all the Italians still loved them.. 
Great race today and I'm over the moon that Alinghi have managed to defend the Cup but then I'm a bit biased!! Plus I'm rambling but I've had too much champagne..
Have fun at Salcombe

Posted: 03/07/2007 23:22:46
By: Rob Wilder
Many thanks - your explanation is absolutely clear.
Perhaps you are right and NZ should have luffed?
It seemed to me that Alinghi went on altering course (bearing away) after their initial alteration of course - that is to say after they knew that NZ had elected to bear away to avoid them.
I have only seen this once on Sky but that is the impression I was left with.
The bear away avoidance seems like a reasonable action - as the right of way boat wasn't allowed to go beyond 90 degrees to the wind and they must have been near to that already.
Of course the view we had, from above, wasn't available to the on the water judge boat. Which begs another question - is it right that there is no right of appeal?

Thanks JM - I looked at sailing anarchy.
Some comments there explain some of what I am worried about.
Perhaps I will pluck up courage and post on there as well - but they don't seem quite as friendly as the banter we have here!

Posted: 03/07/2007 23:23:17
By: Pat Blake
look at fig 3 on page 29

Posted: 03/07/2007 23:32:15
By: Pat Blake
Hi peeps! I am proud and priveleged to have once sailed and beaten "Ed Baird" Alinghi helm? Whilst doing RYA YOOF training OK he prob gave me a headstart!! And also did a bit of training of the Oppies at Papercourt under the guidance of Mr Brian Willis whom i believe is a bit of a rules guru aka AC?? Rock on Salcombe Cheers AAAAAAAlLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: 04/07/2007 01:41:26
I agree with Pat. Unlike him I don't have recent experience of top class racing however I frequently used to compete in two boat and three boat team racing where similar situations occurred. The rules must have changed since then if now they allow the right of way boat Alinghi to 'trap' ETNZ by changing course as she apparently did yesterday.

Posted: 04/07/2007 11:40:55
By: Robert Harris.
For what its worth I thought Aligni made fewer mistakes in the series and deserved to win (bad luck for Kiwis included).  the defining moment for me was in the penultimate race when the kiwis were leading at the bottom mark and allowed Aligni to get too much separation when they had gone for the opposite mark - too many small mistakes that Aligni just didnt make.   A really fantastic series of races from both teams though.

Posted: 04/07/2007 13:42:18
By: Cumulo Nimbus
I watched all the races except the one when the Kiwis lost their spinnaker. More than once during the regatta Alinghi allowed wide separations between herself and ETNZ on downwind legs. Yesterday they were very lucky to get away with it because with Alinghi virtually becalmed several hundred metres to leeward of ETNZ the Kiwis caught a big right shift and overtook her. Had their lead been two seconds longer they would have completed their penalty turn and won the race.

I think ETNZ's penalty yesterday resulted from a Kiwi mistake at the start of the second beat. After passing Alinghi on the first run ETNZ rounded the right hand of the two bottom marks to starboard and continued on starboard tack. Alinghi was close behind and rounded the left hand bottom mark to port, she continued on port tack and grabbed the all important right side of the second beat. From there Alinghi controlled the beat and eventually trapped ETNZ on the port layline.

Fascinating stuff. Can watching Salcombe be as enthralling?

Posted: 04/07/2007 14:52:12
By: Robert Harris.
yes thats what i was talking about! - they allowed the same thing to happen in the penultimate race

Posted: 04/07/2007 17:18:05
By: Cumulo Nimbus
What about the penalty which TNZ took? Am I right in thinking they tacked twice, rather than did a tack and a gybe as per normal 360 penalty, which I thought you did in match racing? Or have I got this wrong? Daily Telegraph today said they took a 360, but reading the Sail-World comments, they show a double tack. I thought they did a double tack, anyone think differently? Perhaps Lucy can enlighten me (if she has finished sorting out her Salcombe boat (good luck by the way)

Posted: 04/07/2007 20:02:19
By: OO
to take a penalty on an upwind leg you must gybe

to take a penalty on a doundwind leg you must tack

once they had tacked they had cleared the penalty. I assume that they tacked back on to starboard to finish rather than bore of on port to gybe for the line to avoid sailing on port with no rights towards Alinghi. The down speed tack back on to starboard to finish left them with little boatspeed but ensured that there was not going to be another foul.

any talk of 360s is rubbish.

Posted: 05/07/2007 07:47:13
By: match racing penalty
Having now watched these races the words of Marechel Bosquet, when he watched the Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava come to mind: "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre". 
How very far removed the whole thing is from our own sport and how our talent is plundered to feed this "Rarie Show" that is in the final analysis, a bit like Dr Johnson's dog.

Posted: 05/07/2007 08:28:42
By: Cynical old man


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