MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Capsizing

Some advice from serious sailors needed for an inexpert one!  I sail an old Merlin (1961 I think - sail number 1220) and love it. However I was sailing it on the sea off Brittany this year and despite new flotation bags, self bailers and a builders bucket found it impossible to recover from a capsize. We got the dinghy up but she was so full of water we couldn't get underway and waves started breaking on us. Same has happened before - but i hoped new bags would solve the problem. Luckily a helpful friend with an engine was nearby.  Any advice on how to recover from a capsize in these boats? - other than don't!

What do you guys do to recover?


Posted: 23/08/2006 16:13:30
By: Eamonn Matthews
I am not an expert on Merlins in rough water yet, but three thoughts.

1. The amount of buoyancy is less important than how low it is in the boat. If the bags are able to ride a couple of inches high in their straps, then the boat will sit a couple of inches lower, which can make all the difference. Bags secured firmly as low as possible, or even with the rather smart non-stretch covers that one sometimes sees, should help.

2. If the level of water stays above the centreboard casing then a lot of water can come in that way unless you have a very effective slot gasket. Be prepared to stuff the slot with anything, jumper, sailbag, to stop water coming in that way.

3. I have had some success by leaving the crew in the water holding the bow to windward until the initial bailing is completed, and the water level is manageable, typically when the thwart is fully clear. Nowadays such a technique is old-fashioned but when your boat was built it was the norm.

Good luck.
Bill


Posted: 23/08/2006 16:22:25
By: bill (3076)
Can we have a link from the homepage called: 

"Why your merlin is a b*tch when she's full of water and how to get used to the fact that there's nothing you can do about it except not capsize it"

Or something to that effect.


Posted: 23/08/2006 16:52:57
By: Jon
Have a big bucket (tied on!).
Open the flaps, let off the kicker, and get on a reach quick.

There is a MS Word DOC file covering capsizing at this link:

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/training/fact_sheet_index.htm

Posted: 23/08/2006 17:32:47
By: Mags
not too keen on keeping the crew in the water until the initial bailing is done, do you need a poking device to keep the crew in the water long enough (especially during November)


Posted: 23/08/2006 21:16:32
By: The Minx
Great - many thanks


Posted: 25/08/2006 16:39:05
By: Eamonn Matthews
We capsized 111 (ribbed boat and small cockpit) at Clywedog (twice) and there are no flaps etc .  We managed to get her emptied with a bucket and the self bailers and completed the race.  One thing that seemed to help the steering (usually she screws up to windward when full) was not to put too much centreboard down then we could get steerage.  Hope this helps.


Posted: 31/08/2006 13:30:50
By: Garry R
New slot gasket helps as does getting the crew to block the centreboard slot - sit with thigh along it if all else fails - but make sure all your buoyancy is adequate as we saw 36 Terrapin trying to live up to her name at Clywedog and go under water (twice!!). The bucket is essential but don't tie it on by just the handle as it can come off in a capsize and give the rescue boat a real test when it floats around with only the rim showing (Clywedog again!!)


Posted: 02/09/2006 07:38:57
By: Pat 2121
Ok, I know it's easy to say, but don't capsize unless the wind is blowing a near gale.
Why do many inexperienced helms capsize ????....because they have a mainsheet that cleats downwards and they can't release the mainsheet when hiked out in a gust.!!!
SOLUTION:Fit the mainsheet cleat upside down so that you pull up to cleat and pull out to uncleat.
RESULT: FEWER CAPSIZES !!
If you do...then after righting get the boat moving on the jib until the rudder has steerage ....don't pull the mainsheet in in too hard too soon because she will only round up to wind and capsize again.
SOUNDS FAMILIAR...Just like sailing a submarine !!

Have fun ......REMEMBER.....There's Loads of "F" in FUN !!

Regards,
Nigel.


Posted: 06/09/2006 20:47:22
By: Nigel
Exactly the system Mike Clavert has always adopted. Don't often see him clambering onto the cetreboard do you?


Posted: 06/09/2006 21:34:17
By: Richard Battey
Calvert.........Centreboard


Spelling!!!!!


Posted: 06/09/2006 21:35:04
By: Richard Battey
I have a mainsheet block which has a cam which locks the mainsheet when pulled up if pulled lower even in line with the gunnel when hiked out the whole mechanism rotates downwards an uncleats.

Doesn't stop me swimming though!


Posted: 07/09/2006 01:25:49
By: Nigel3280
Similarly we have a pull up to cleat fiddle block on 2121 and it made no difference to the capsizing. What does count is time in the boat so helm and crew are used to the handling. We were given the Radox award last year for frequent bathing, when we first got the Merlin but due to more experience, have only gone over once this year and few survived those Clywedog gusts!

Just put up with the swimming and keep practising.


Posted: 07/09/2006 13:23:31
By: Pat2121
The more experienced capsizers go over to windward on the runs though and that's not to do with the mainsheet block.  Also sometimes the slammers at Salcombe can put you in without even cleating the main especially if it's just after diving across to the leeward side after a hole.  Rob Wilder oh so nearly lost his open meeting at Hampton in a HUGE hole 50 yards short of the finish but with Alex diving for the leeward side they just survived though filled up!  So sometimes it just has your sail-number on it, but time in the boat and experience help enormously.


Posted: 07/09/2006 15:58:53
By: Andrew M
David "never capsizes" Baker capsized to the windward side at Tamesis Sunday morning.

At Hampton on Saturday I capsized (crewing) in 607 to leeward with spinny up on a tightening reach in the first race - once this boat starts to go over there is little chance of recovery.
Then again in the third race in 1602 on the run (no spinny) to leeward after gusts put us in a death roll with not enough control available in the rudder to steer out of it.


Posted: 07/09/2006 17:52:41
By: Brian
Tim and I managed the most spectator friendly capsize of the Hampton weekend with the whole balcony witnessing the perfect capsize drill.  Three seconds after the finish hooter over we went to much amusement and cheers from the Hampton members.  (By the way if anyone can tell me the state of the lead tip on the tip of the centreboard I would be most grateful as I was im the water at the time!!)


Posted: 08/09/2006 09:32:04
By: Garry R
I have had a lot of recent experience in this area...check your fwd buoyancy tanks and make sure they are empty..and pump up your bags before you set off..helps when when the boat comes up...forget the bailer, just get the boat up and get going...we capsized on the finishing line at Hampton as well..and just before it....and...


Posted: 08/09/2006 09:40:36
By: Mike
Can anyone explain to a non-teccy, why the rudder stalls and what to do about it, apart from learning to swim?


Posted: 08/09/2006 11:34:38
By: bill (3076)
To understand in a non technical way, why a rudder stalls, think of the rudder functioning in the same way as a sail, if you let it out to much or pull it in too much too quickly the sail will stall, effectively the same thing happens under water.

What to do about it? Learn to steer the boat without the rudder, ie interaction bewteen the sails and also the heel of the boat. The rudder will stall when you are going fast and you are trying to correct an error in boat or sail trim by using the rudder alone rather than adjusting your sails or boat trim.

Thats my theory. It may be right or wrong, who knows, but I have never capsized because of a stalled rudder, many other reason I have though!


Posted: 08/09/2006 13:33:26
By: Alan F
On a dead run , sometimes slightly by the lea , nice and windy and you are planing towards the Ferry Inn comtemplating how you can manage a gybe. Bam!! comes that by the lea gust, the boat rolls over on top of the helm , you try and luff but nothing happens ........rudder stalled ........in you go.
Alan.......seem to remember a photo of you in this position , all be it crewing.


Posted: 08/09/2006 14:15:21
By: Observer
Pull the mainsheet in to get the top of the main athartships again from twisting fwd! That'll stop it.


Posted: 08/09/2006 14:19:41
By: ):-
Yep, it wasn't the rudder stalling it was the main twisting in front of the mast. The solution is to sheet in when it happens, or if it is predictable put a bit more kicker on. The rudder stalls when you try to recover from something that has gone past the point of no return.

Unfortunately Natt just wasn't strong enough to sheet in on that gust. Fun though it was.


Posted: 08/09/2006 14:47:53
By: Alan F
Spinnaker flying out to windward ,followed by loss of steerage more likely to tip you in if it's windy. 
Always need a bit of kicker on a windy run.


Posted: 08/09/2006 15:10:45
By: Observer
Eamonn I remember hailing you off Britany coast in August 2005 whilst sailing a hired catamaran - sorry to hear of your capsize this year.Your posting reminded me of a great holiday and cheered me up because ive got a pot on my leg which wont be off in time for the Inlands! Regards Jeremy


Posted: 08/09/2006 15:13:42
By: 3525
I disagree with observer, the spinnaker forces are quite low down and quite 'forward' and easy to dump power from.

The down side of the flexible chipstow mast and the top batten is the gust will bend the tip and the batten will go forward even if you have enough kicker to hold the batten square before the gust (fastest on the run), so you either have to put too much kicker on then not expose so much sail to the wind, or respond to gusts with kicker or mainsheet tension. As the action of the sail going forward is at the top of the mast and 'inside' the boat, the tipping force is quite powerful - what do they say? something like one ounce at the top of the mast is the same as one pound at deck level.


Posted: 08/09/2006 15:25:17
By: Alan F
Here is a stalled rudder after a gybe.  What you are trying to do on the run is keep the boat under the rig.  If the boat heels too much for whatever reason there are 2 things that stall the rudder, the first is that quite a bit of it comes out of the water, the 2nd is that the twit in the picture is using too extreme an angle to the direction of travel in a vain attempt to avoid the inevitable & so the water flow detaches from the rudder blade -> stall.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/open_meetings/salcombe/2006&file=salcombeopen2006_mills.jpg

Posted: 11/09/2006 09:01:49
By: Andrew M
Alan, Ok too little kicker allowing the main too far forward can be a minor problem but the usual reason for a roll in to windward on a breezy run is a big gust sometimes by the lea hitting the spinniker and rolling the boat on top of the helm. The only way out is some quick work by the crew( who is normally oblivious to what is happening) or some quick moving and smart steering by the helm keeping the boat under the mast, when they are too late or too slow that's when you get a stalled rudder. 
Looks like Nat may have the rudder hard over, unfortunately most of it is out of the water.


Posted: 11/09/2006 11:07:04
By: Observer
Observer, I think you should reveal your identity, so I can judge if you are just a wind up or something.

Natts tiller looks dead straight to me, if it was hard over bearing away you would see the stock wouldn't you.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/open_meetings/salcombe/2006&file=salcombeopen2006_fullers.jpg

Posted: 11/09/2006 11:33:22
By: Alan F
Also, if you look at the picture you can see clearly that I have dropped the pole forward of the running position and there is so little pull on the spin sheet that it isn't even pulling out the downhaul, but look at the main, it is really pushing forward from the schouds and spreader, if Natt had the strenght to sheet back the main then the roll would have been corrected.


Posted: 11/09/2006 11:37:33
By: Alan F
Alan, It's mostly a wind-up, we've all capsized on a dead run and I know from my experiences its normally the spinaker that makes the boat unstable. 
Looking how yours is billowing out to port it looks like the primary factor in the capsize. I suspect if it was caused by the main the boat would have gone over the other way. But then I wasn't in the boat.


Posted: 11/09/2006 13:33:20
By: Observer
Observer is wrong; the weather roll is caused by the mainsail twisting foreward at the top, a pull on the mainsheet would have at least minimised that; the Spinnaker to windward would be pushing the other way and if the guy had been pulled back and sheet overtrimmed a bit the sail would be just driving the boat fwd balanced.


Posted: 11/09/2006 14:21:58
By: ):-
Is the identity of Observer and ):- a bit of a mystery or am I just in the dark?


Posted: 11/09/2006 15:11:59
By: Â
A weather roll can be caused by a number of factors, the least of which would be the main twisting forward, just look at the forces involved and how far the main would have to twist and how far the wind would have to be by the lea for any force to push the mast to windward. You may lose power in the top of the sail but it would be the spinnaker that pulls you over. 
Have you ever gone in on a weather roll when not flying the spinnaker ?


Posted: 11/09/2006 15:22:02
By: Observer
Yes


Posted: 11/09/2006 15:29:44
By: Â
What an exciting debate on a boring Monday afternoon. Have you seen the 'Boat Whisperers' downwind video. This is all in Lasers, but they capsize to windward. I'm sure techniques are different but princple is the same. Interesting also the stalled rudder contributes to the disaster by pushing the stern up and the bow down.


Posted: 11/09/2006 16:14:59
By: GeoffP
Definitely the main caused the capsize to windward not the kite, if played rite kites should make the boat more stable downwind. (Depending on the breeze)


Posted: 11/09/2006 17:08:27
By: Mark F
I would suggest observer test in a laser and lets his main out beyond perpendicular and see how far it has to go before the roll happens.

The top of the Merlin sail is pretty powerfull and it only has to go forward 5 degrees or so fo the air flow to stream from the mast forward most efficiently reversing the heeling force 7 meters up in the air. This is very significant.

Conventional wisdom says that a well played spinnaker adds to stability on the run as the forces on the boat are a pull trianglated between the sheet the guy and the head of the spin, which approximates about 2.5 metres up the mast and on the centre line, rather than the main that is a push with a COE of about 4 meters up and 1.6 meters offset.

So whilst observer may capsize a lot on the run with the spin up, for most of us that is fairly rare and the majority of running capsizes are caused by poor boat handling either on the hoist or on the gybe.


Posted: 11/09/2006 17:43:45
By: Alan F
Observer has capsized on the run but not for a few years, I would suggest less theory and more practice would help.
The spinnaker may help stabilise the boat on most points of sailing but not on a dead run, particularly if you are slightly by the lea waiting for an opportune moment to gybe.


Posted: 12/09/2006 08:29:08
By: Observer
Are you sure it is not the gybe that puts you in if you roll the boat and miss handle the sails? 
Harping on theory, if you are sailing by the lee, the spinnaker will be hanging out to windward and the airflow reversed across the main you will have two centres of effort one from the main to leeward and one from the spin to windward, that has to be relatively stable doesn't it?


Posted: 12/09/2006 11:07:47
By: Alan F
With all this knowledge I am amazed a Merlin Rocket ever capsizes, however if you seek further scholastic enlightenment C J Marchaj of Southampton University wrote a very good technical book which has pictures as well describing the dynamics.


Posted: 12/09/2006 12:26:34
By: ):-
When Mr Mark Rushall was teaching me how to gybe in a force 7, he emphasized on the fact that if my crew keeps the kite flying threw the gybe life would be a lot easier for us. - Haven�t capsized downwind since then - so far...


Posted: 12/09/2006 12:49:10
By: Mark F
Its not the crew who keeps the kite filling on a gybe. ITS THE HELMSMAN!!!!!!!


Posted: 12/09/2006 13:13:18
By: The Judge
assuming the crew cleats the sheet and guy in the right place and doesn't just let them go!


Posted: 12/09/2006 13:20:19
By: Alan F
Its not the crew who keeps the kite filling on a gybe. ITS THE HELMSMAN!!!!!!!


Posted: 12/09/2006 13:48:22
By: The Judge
No, assuming the helmsman chooses to gybe at max speed and keeps HIS eyes on the kite.


Posted: 12/09/2006 13:50:31
By: The Judge
I don't disagree, but the crew has a responsiblity to trim the pole back during the bear away, otherwise the kite will collapse in the lee on the main. So if the crew does nothing or lets it all go then by your definition he can't gybe. 

Teamwork.


Posted: 12/09/2006 14:04:01
By: Alan F
Mark I doubt you've ever sailed a Merlin Rocket in a genuine steady force seven that's a lot of wind you can't even look into it without glasses on.


Posted: 12/09/2006 14:26:03
By: ):-
Good job i dont wear glasses. You are right i doubt i have as well, but if i ever need to gybe in a force seven i shouldnt have any problems! (in theory)   As for other comment, yes I meant crew and helm for those who like to be pedantic :)


Posted: 12/09/2006 14:42:31
By: Mark F
And don't Merlin sailors (or sailors in general) like to be pedantic! :)


Posted: 12/09/2006 14:44:34
By: Â
Loved some of the language in this thread.  Particularly "athartships".  What the hell does that mean?


Posted: 13/09/2006 00:04:40
By: mark 3078
Across the boat at 90 degrees to fore and aft.


Posted: 13/09/2006 11:12:35
By: ):-
Aha - that would be athWartships then

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=athwartships&x=32&y=14

Posted: 13/09/2006 13:58:55
By: Alan F
correct slysedxia!


Posted: 13/09/2006 14:03:45
By: ):-
Having a small head I hate to have a big capsize.  Is there a cure and prevention?


Posted: 14/09/2006 10:47:39
By: Cap size

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