Let's be honest, new Merlins are complicated and expensive.  Every year there is a new gadget requiring more blocks and string.  I believe with every complication and innovation that the fleet is in danger of disappearing up its own bum.  To secure a long term future class and committeee MUST think about what "restricted" means, because the one thing that is not restricted at present is cost.  Simple economics shows that more buyers (sailors) will be attracted if merlins  cost less.  And I don't mean a price limit.  You can control costs by being prescriptive about what is allowed in the boat and what is not.  It is not an easy subject but it is time the committee had a clear mandate from the members as to a target price for a new competitive merlin, and to propose rule restrictions and prescriptions to achieve it.  There is no need for the class to sleepwalk into decline.  Start to control costs now, and see fleets expand, younger sailors join, and a bright future for the class.  No business in a competitive market will survive without cost control, and this is ultimately what the Merlin class is.  Its a business.  If the product costs too much, it won't sell.  Does anyone else agree?

Not strictly true - I bought some timber from homebase yesterday and paid well over the odds, ripped off in fact. The problem was that I needed it!

Now, I have criteria and nominal targets which I have set to improve the performance of my old boat and, more importantly(some would say all important!) my own performance. I have no need to compete at the top level.

Thankfully, there are quite a few members who do have that need, and indeed pay extra in order to satisfy their aspiration. Of course, if there weren't, then we would all be sailing around in old designs and nothing would ever get developed.

Mind you, if I had twelve to fifteen grand knocking around and free sails for a couple of years, then I might be persuaded.............nah! I'll stick with the old tub 'till I get it sorted.

Let's be honest, new Merlins are complicated and expensive, but less than ever before. Every year there is a new gadget requiring more blocks and string. I believe with every complication and innovation that the fleet is in danger of becoming more interesting.  Even the RS people fancy the Merlin magic!
 To secure a long term future class and committee MUST think about what "restricted" means, because the one thing that is not restricted at present is cost. And indeed this is what separates us from the rip off merchants that insist that you buy sailing items from a single supplier, there is an element of.... choice?   Simple economics shows that more buyers (sailors) will be attracted if merlins cost less. Even simpler economics say that a BMW equivalent is simply worth the money and you see plenty more BMW's than turbo Protons.
And I don't mean a price limit. You can control costs by being prescriptive about what is allowed in the boat and what is not, but then again that means we are no longer a development class and have to live with the inbuilt faults of one-designs. It is not an easy subject but it is time the committee had a clear mandate from the members as to a target price for a new competitive merlin, and to propose rule restrictions and prescriptions to achieve it.  Yes, there are might be rules to reduce costs by having a shorter boat, balsa spars, and a perforated hull but fortunately thats not our prescriptive style.  But the Class might be more conservative about Rhodium masts (or whatever) and a good thing too. But there is no point constraining everything to a constant point.  Look at mobile phones.  Innovate, change and appeal to the fickle humanity where functionality is not the only purpose.  There is no need for the class to sleepwalk into decline which is why we are a wide awake bunch who are simply offer the best prestigious package around. Start to control costs now, and see fleet disappear to the undiscrimated classes where they dont even bother to give the plastic a decent name. To expand, make Merlins the best desirable class where the younger sailors aspire to join, not dictated to by RYA dicate, and a bright future for the class will prevail. No business in a competitive market will survive without cost control, and this is ultimately what the Merlin class does, but in the quality good markets of Gucci etc because "we're worth it". Its a business. If the product costs too much, it won't sell to some is true and if costs too little it wont sell because if you dont know your value, nor will others. 

Does anyone else agree?

Not this one.  Merlins are fabulous and Im proud to a destitute owner dressed in rags.

Expensive compared to what?

RS400 list £8000
Winder Merlin £9500 (from P&B or Speed catalogues)
Fireball £8000
505 from £11,000
Fyling Fifteen £15,000
All inc vat

If you can't afford new, boats to as near as damn it to the latest spec are available secondhand for £6000. There's a Canterbury tales currently on the list for £2500. Expensive 'custom' boats are nice but you don't need one to win, the Nationals results show that.

So, no I don't agree, they're not expensive.

"There is no need for the class to sleepwalk into decline. Start to control costs now, and see fleets expand" - Not much sleepwalking at Whitstable - our fleet has expanded to 16 boats in the last year. Younger sailors too. I rest my case.

Price used to be controlled and when a Merlin Rocket costs over 50% of a World Chamionship Winning Dragon you can reckon things have gone tto far. The Late Geoffry Saffery-Cooper (father of Brian) used to say that a new M/R cw sails trailoer etc., should cost no more than a small family car would this be a good guide line, though I suspect the arms race has gone too far for that, perhaps a freeze on expensive developents might be an idea or a moritorium on space age materials? AND THEN LET INFLATION do the job! Gordon Brown will anyway!

I think you answered your own question, it’s all in the subject line.

‘If the product costs too much, it won’t sell’.  Well it is selling so the answer must be that it doesn’t cost too much.

We would all like our boats to cost less, but we all want modern boats that take advantage of appropriate technology and have all the toys.  If development stopped in (pick a date) then what would you have, and would you sail it?

The Merlin would make the Wayfarer look like a racing machine and the 12’s would still be beaten by the Fredies.  You would all be sailing Arse 400’s and we'd have 200's.

Sensible solutions on a postcard… and if you find a good one could you let the 12’s know as well?

The number of people who volunteer to sail around in antiques would seem to contraindicate the validity of your thesis  however somewhere in between the Islamic Fundamentalists and the Roman Catholic bigot approach is an Anglican Compramise and I supect with a opinions one sees and hears one could br reached especially with the Good Capable and telanted Chairman the class has. It is of course possible given the average age of class owner drivers that they'd prefer to let the class die as it nearlu did a few years back.

Here's a star why not everybody go back to nice white sails again?

Unfortunately if you post a message like this on the enthusiasts' website you will not get much support!  Over the last few years the only significant changes to the class have been longer spinny poles and the bigger kite.  This is not an expensive upgrade as spinnakers don't last forever anyway and the poles, even carbon ones, can be obtained for under £200 fitted.  My boat was state-of-the-art 10 years ago and is now not quite leading edge, but all the rig controls of the present boats were already installed in the Merlin of the 1990's, even the hull shapes have not changed markedly.  You get what you pay for, no-one appears to be making a mint building Merlins or making their sails.  It's interesting to look at the great weight debate that was raging a few months ago, was reminded of it by the Y&Y article on Smart Tart with its 22kg of lead.  The nationals this year have laid that one to rest by having 2 wooden boats with only small amounts of lead up in the top 5 & in big waves too, where all this was supposed to matter.  There was (at the time Heaven Sent was built, and I am told a lot to do with the price paid by Alistair Evans to Jon Turner!) definitely a problem with the price of the Merlin 10 years ago.  I don't think there is today, and there must be the economic argument about the older Winder boats that as the supply increases on the 2nd hand market the price will drop.  That really will be good value

& also (last word on it) a suit of sails from Arrow Sails is not expensive; we already have a number of restrictions to control cost, notably the ban on carbon in the hull shell, banning of winged rudders, double rudders...

I think all merlins should be fitted with hydrofoils then hull shape will be a thing of the past????

Which would start the old weight debate again....  Any takers?!

Yes.  I’ve got fat over the last couple of years because I’ve been sat around on my arse, eating too much and drinking much to much.  As a result I find it difficult to compete with those with the willpower to control their diets and the commitment to maintain a reasonable level of fitness.  I find this very unfair and propose we introduce some rules.
1)	This people should sail with bricks in their pockets
2)	Fit people should be forced to sail using only one arm and their legs tied together.

Thanks fatty, for introducing some humour into this debate, before I got cross and slagged off the person who started it all for being too scared to even give his real name. I take it they thought to write to the chairman before the Away Day on Saturday if they felt so strongly about their views.

For what it's worth I don't think there is a price problem at the moment. The new MROA slogan should read, "because i'm worth it."

'Because it's worth it' would be a great catch phrase and could be applied just as easily to older boats. There aren't to many high performance classes where 10,20 year old (older inland)boats in good order can get in the prizes like Merlins can. The well proven build quality of the old and competitive price of the new (check out the cost of a new unfitted Winder!)seems to offer a choice to all. Over the past ten years the rise to fame of the 'off the shelf' one design classes there initial popularity grue on the Laser theory, identical, competative pricing, simple mass produced, basic set up & race boats, instant availability and well marketed. Sold to the masses who have neither the time or money or skill to develop a 'one off' boat.
 I believe the Merlin also appeals to those who think more about the design, layout, etc that all goes into a performance boat and from my view you can achieve this with an old boat at club level or new boat if you have the time,the skill, the cash to take you further.
 Going back to an original comment there are a lot of boat builders out there I'm sure if they thought there was profits to be made by 'mass' producing Merlins they would.
 Could go on but just noticed I'm on my time now so better lock the office & go home. Cheers Barry.

I think the person who started this string should be aplauded. I don't agree with the premise that the Merlin is too expensive but it has bought the subject to the surface for some good healthy discussion. "Because she's worth it" is a great strap line. Beware though that besides giving the impression of exclusivity it also says expensive which by the comparisions earlier the Merlin is not. I don't think it's the price that dictates whether Merlins are popular or not it's the competativeness of designs available on the second hand market. The Merlin has had a period of relative stability for some years now so competative Tales are available for less £2500. Quite a while ago Pat stated that the Assoc were moving forward with an evolution not revolution ethos. This is where the increased popularity has, and will continue to come from in the class.

I Think Fatty's got a good idea, but how about this
all crews are weighed, with every one being made the same as the heavest, this might bring some of the older designs back into mix, and saves me having to diet.

don,t like the last idea. As a skinny git I'd have to have a mass of weight correctors on me that would mean that I would have to buy a new buoiyancy aid or arm bands which means more cost making my racing even more expensive.

Thanks to everybody for their responses. The purpose of cost control is not for the benefit of the oldies who already know that the boat is worth every penny. I am thinking of the new recruits. Some of you may think that we do have young people in the fleet, and we do, but if you look closely, they mostly come from committed merlin families. Surely nobody disagrees that the average age of the fleet is getting older? For the class to be sustainable in the long term, it must win a steady flow of new, young customers, if only to avoid inbreeding, no names mentioned. Cost is not the only factor, but it is a major one. Please do not lampoon my argument by exaggeration. I am not an extremist believe it or not. I am a traditionalist if you like. The class was founded with cost control in mind, and look how fantastically successful it was in its heyday with 100's of boats built each year. Times have changed I know. Today there are so many classes to choose from. I sense that our product, whilst a delight, is becoming positioned too near the luxury, low volume end of the market. There are opportunities for cost control without significantly diminishing the merlin experience. Is it not time the class cared about its member's wallets? 10 or 20 new boats a year is simply not enough. We should be asking ourselves why it is that punters choose to buy into other cheaper classes. Cost is not the only issue, but it is important, and should be on our agenda. It is ignored at our peril.

New boats are expensive. It's the same whatever class you sail. If LDC with all their marketing might can't get the 400 any cheaper than £8000 what chance have we with a Merlin? In fact if you look at it like that the Merlin is a positive bargain with 50% more fittings, carbon foils and (Depending what you get for £9500) a carbon rig for an extra £1500.

Add to that the build quality of the Merlin and the time that is spent putting these things together compared with the mass produced boats and the price looks better still!

Development classes always seem to be more of an aquired taste than one designs, often having a "captured" audience and if you look at the names in N12s and I14s down the years i'm sure there is a similar pattern in there too.

I think that it comes down to the basic that no i can't afford a brand new Merlin. But then i can't afford a new 400 either!

I have an idea - possibly contraversial, but it is only a suggestion...  How about we appeal to the people who say they would love to sail merlins, but can't afford the initial outlay and don't want to sniff around towards the back of the the fleet because that's not where they feel they should be. 

So we start the Merlin-Rocket Hire Purchase scheme, where the initial outlay is paid for by the association, the owner paying, say, £2000 down.  Winders (or whoever) build the boat, the punter pays x amount per month at 15-20% APR (Have no idea actually, but maybe what car people charge) for 36 months and at the end the time they have the option to buy the boat or it gets returned to the association who tart it up and then flog it for its market value.  

I haven't done the maths but that would mean new people in the fleet with new tubs, new people attracted to the fleet and buuying the 3 year old ones and lots of dosh for the association to be reinvested in new boats and or champs etc.  We;d need an underwriter, but I;m sure Mr. Rainey knows a thing or two about that, and there must be people in the class who have experience pof the whole HP thing from the selling/working out side.

It can't be that flawed a plan - it's been keeping the car companies going for years.  the only question to my mind is there really a market out there to sustain it?

Might be worth a survey at the dinghy show though?

Personally I'm not convinced it is purely financial why people don't want to sail our fab boats.

Chris

Nice idea although I believe LDC Racing Sailboats still do a similar scheme for the 400's et al. You effectively buy the boat on the 'strap'with a realtively small initial down payment and at the end of the 36 month HP period you have the option to sell the boat and start all over again, or make a final payment, settle the finance and own the boat outright, sinple! I am surprised that this financing option has not been offerd by P&B/Speed both whom actively promote the Merlin Class. 

Although,it might just be as easy to get a loan at a low rate, seeing that borrowing is cheap at the moment!

I totally agree with your last sentence. I has very little to do with finance and everything to do with CHOICE.

As an outsider I can assure you that in the twenty odd years I've been sailing dinghies the Merlin has never been regarded as the budget option. If that had been a problem you wouldn't be about now. Sure you could make a whole lot of rule changes to take a few hundred quid off the price of a new boat, but presumably it wouldn't appeal as much to the people who buy them now, and are you really sure there's a huge constituency of new people who do want cheap boats. Again as an outsider I've seen in the past attempts to have a cheaper Merlin, notably the "White Whale" and presumably this pointless MRX class, but they've all had one thing in common - no one has really wanted to buy them...

It seems that with numbers over 3650 and orders in the pipeline that will take that well on the way to 3660. 

That's over 100 boats in the past 5 years as opposed to about 40 boats in the previous 5 years. This means that there are well over 100 boats that are or should be on the pace and probably 90 of those with 10kg or more of lead in.

I think that puts the class in a very healthy position. 

Reassuringly Expensive

Chris, 
I reckon it would work for both the builder and the buyer.
The buyer can pay in monthly installments, making it more affordable..
The builder will be getting a steady flow of cash in all year round. I'm sure things must go pretty quiet for the boatbuilders - at least this way they may avoid the quiet and skint peroid!

Although the numbers look good etc,100 new boats in 5 years, and you can call me a cynical old fart but new people are not really joining the class so the numbers represent a recycling of current members. This is identifiable by looking at the results sheets.The answer is to carry on as normal and not try and pretend the class is one in 5 as it used to be but now 1 in 500, so there is a dilution  ( probably the same as with TV channels, thre is choice). Kids these days want trapeze and A sails and those are the people you are losing, that is where the growth is.just a view from an old fart. 

ps the boats look very pretty



Old fart

Absolute numbers aren't everything though.  There may only be 15-20 new boats a year against 50-100 in the 1970's, I wonder how that compares to the GP14 and Enterprise figures, I suspect much the same in percentage terms.  Merlins occupy a specific niche which is not mainstream.  Cost is certainly not the only deterrant, there is a perception of the class as expensive, which it needn't be, but also as difficult to sail.  That's true, difficult to sail well certainly.  Merlins are technical, sensitive and have very low initial stability, not an easy transition from the Wayfarer or similar most sailing schools use.  Some people have a go in a Merlin and never venture out again, but the very fact that a lot of the fleet has been sailing in this class for decades, gone off to try (sometimes very exalted) sailing elsewhere and returned suggests that for the minority who do get hooked on it there's nothing else with the same appeal.  The present formula is attracting new sailors in - we have more new Merlin sailors at Hampton than the other classes and have poached 2 converts  from the GP14's but we won't ever be the 1st 2-person 3-sail boat on the national rankings.  The committee's view is that we need a period of stability to consolidate the successful changes of the last few years, but hey, we are a restricted class, & who knows if the next wooden one-off from Laurie Smart or Kevin Driver just might have that little bit of an edge...

And if so, I bet at the next champs everyone will be crowding round and sighting the lines of the hull and pulling on whatever new bit of string someone's invented and wondering how to apply it.  Now that's added interest and surely part of why we sail this class not a one-design

How many other classes give you the option to build your own? My new MR complete with carbon rig, carbon foils etc should come in at less than $8000 [4200 pounds] ready to tow and sail.

Any competition there? Price sounds good but how does it compare?

...and another thing (this forum is better than working!) when Glen T tried the cost-no-object-adjust-everything route in After Hours it just didn't work and he ended up taking most of it out again and reverting to a very conventional layout, albeit with a long thin spinny, so development has blind alleys as well (wing masts anyone?)

But I bet he had loads of fun doing it.

Andrew - please don't ever mention  wing masts again - almost ruined my Christmas!!

The point is the 100+ competitive boats not how many are being sold.

If we can convert the boat numbers into attendance at the champs and ST - then we're laughing.

Getting people started in Merlins is the key.  Can I ask, how many MR clubs have got any MR among the Club boats?  At the bottom end of the second-hand market, it is a cheap and actually pretty sturdy option for a conventional three sail boat, and once hooked .......  

The other advantage is that an ambitious newcomer can experiment with fittings, tuning etc whilst racing reasonably competitively off one of the class handicap ratings.   We could even have a class scheme to encourage decent older boats into club ownership.

Ranelagh has two club Merlins which can be sailed for £5 a go if you're a member. (£65 per year) We also have quite a large fleet (15) of Merlins, even if most are now over 30 years old, (includes Kate No1).
We'd be happy to see anyone with a Merlin who wants to sail where the Merlins started.
Nick

TRouble with club boats is no one loves em nothing works and what does falls off!

That's a bit harsh. We have 11 club boats in 5 different classes which are used regularly. Every now and then there is a problem but we fix it and all the boats, though old are serviceable.
Nick

Ranelagh does have the advantage that the boats are stored under the clubhouse completely protected from the elements however infrequently they are used.  Unfortunately most clubs will be leaving an older wooden boat outside protected by whatever cover it has come into club ownership with.  Sooner or later a lot of work will be required if it is to keep going.  I have thought about the logistics of club ownership of an older Merlin at Hampton and this has always been the deterrent.

I HAVE A NEW WINDER MERLIN ON ORDER TO REPLACE MY CURRENT WINDER.WHILE IT IS TRUE, I WISH IT WOULD COST LESS ONE HAS TO BE REALISTIC. ONE THING I AM CERTAIN OF THOUGH IS THAT MY CURRENT MERLIN HAS COST CONSIDERABLY LESS TO RUN WITH THE BENIFIT OF GOOD RACING THAN SEVERAL PEOPLE I KNOW WHO HAVE FOLLOWED FASHION & PURCHASED A SUCCESSION OF ASYMETRICS. GENERALLY THEY ARE BADLY CONSTRUCTED SOON OUT-DATED & WHILST INITIAL OUTLAY MIGHT BE A LITTLE LESS THE DEPRECIATION (& QUITE OFTEN THE RUNNING COSTS) MUCH GREATER. ALSO,IF YOU HAVE ACTUALLY SAILED THESE BOATS RATHER THAN RELY ON A YACHTS & YACHTING REPORT (WHICH THE SYNIC IN ME SAYS ARE BIASED TOWARDS THEIR ADVERTISERS) YOU WILL FIND THEY ARE NOT PARTICULARLY PLEASANT TO SAIL. AS WITH MOST THINGS IN LIFE CAREFUL SHOPPING IS IMPORTANT BUT YOU GENERALLY GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.....

Morning Old Fart of a few days ago..

You are correct when you say that of the 100 or so boats built in the last few years, very few have gone to people new to the class. This signifies nothing about the strength of the class however, since in several cases it has meant that in buying a new boat, existing members of the class are making their 'old' boat available to someone who may either be new to the class, or may be younger and less able to resource a brand new boat.  With the rules stability we have arrived at in the last three to four years, many of these boats are current designs with excellent kit.  Certainly, anyone buying a three or four year old Winder will be buying an excellent value machine which will serve them very well for many years, and if they then choose to go brand new next time around, so much the better, it all leads to active boats in the membership.

Why, you might even think of the buyers of new boats as philanthropists!!

GGGGGGGG

"Incest" is all very well, but Merlin Rockets have always been very clique, some of the cliques not for the better of the class. New blood is essential unless it is to "cretinise", but then it (The Class) may be happy to do just that. It would certainly be better than going the way of the International 14. Which is unrecognisable as the Class of Stewart Morris,Peter Hunter, Bruce Banks and Keith Shackleton etc etc.

What is all this no-newcomers, cliques and incest stuff? At Whitstable in this season four new owners joined our fleet with good secondhand Winders. One ex-windsurfer and RS 800 sailor, one wooden Merlin owner revitalised by his teenage enthusiast crew, our local Tasar expert and Class Captain and an International 14 and Tornado Cat world class sailor. We also have teenaged Cadets queuing up to crew. Why? Because of quality - defined in industry as "what the customer wants".

I have looked at this thread and have a comment.  Given that Merlins are a development class the new cost is always likely to have been considered "expensive".  However having now bought two rather old (and uncompetitive) boats (because that's what I like,want and can afford) I don't consider that the equivalent of £10000 down to £200 from years 1947 to 2004 to be a huge level of depreciation!!! How many £25000+ BMWs etc are going to be around in 2061 and, from the number on the road, people buy those without a second thought. Do you get as much fun from your car as you do from your boat?  I know the answer here even if I'm not winning or going fast.  They are good value at all levels and because of the age of the class can offer a range of fun to all tastes.

"Quality" is not what the customer wants otherwise Savile Row suits would out number those dreadful off the peg things from Boss etc and Decent restaurants would out number Macdonalds. What the customer wants sadly is Cheap (Not even inexpensive) faux and tatty Fords rather than Bentleys! Sad but there we are. Define our market? 
For instance Parker Pens discovered rather too late they were not in the writing instrument business (Thanks to Baron Blik)but in the gift business.
What is the Merlin Rockets market? Certainly for the discerning sailor who wants to sail a "sharp instrument" rather than the blunt instrument that for instance so many other classes are. When one sails soimething else for instance all that slamming going windward that the MR sailor never really experiences!

I’d like to add another angle to this if I may.

I really enjoy sailing Merlins, light sensitive - they have the feeling that they’ve developed over time. Each step up in the class just goes faster, quicker. 

Whilst the price does make things difficult, one of the big problems I've always run into my own personal weight, Ok exercise and dieting is helpful – but even having lost some 3+st since I last sailed an open I know full well I’m still overweight for the boat – more exercise needed.

Can a heavy weight (22st-26st) get a Merlin to go fast or do we have to continue to supplement our sailing with other classes where we are competitive, that’s really expensive!

but the fact is the Merlin is a (very nice) old bus.  It is heavy and that makes the ship easier to cope with.  Were the boats friskier heavier weights would be more competitive as the lighter weight people would have to be even better to tame the beast.  Take all the lead out of one of the latest Merlins and try to sail it.  Things will happen a lot quicker.  Whilst you might get the weight in the wrong place some of the time, just having it will also allow for a general level of incompetence at other times.
Drop the hull weight, make it more difficult, make it more accessible for those who are heavier.

Hi Big bloke, I'm just under 20st (about 3 lbs) and sail a nsmII and just love giving the feather weights a run for there money.
Do you want to know the secret?

Momentum, keep it going in light winds, or watch them struggle in the windy stuff.
oh and have a light weight crew.

"you're not going to like this" by dropping the weight and making some changes will still unfortunately lag behind because he still has more water to push out of the  way. Reducing the boat weight would mean that the crew weight would become a higher percentage of the all up weight. Making the boat more nimble, would yes be interesting but then we would not have a Merlin but a high performance dinghy and new shapes. Oh dear. Suggest oh fat/heavy one that a high fibre diet and no beer or dairy for a while would not go amiss, with exercise between the 2 appointments with your bed in the 24 hour period would do the trick. Failing that, suggest a good movie and dreams of days gone by.

"Weight as such is usefull only to the designers of steam rollers" so said Uffa Fox in 1936 nothing has changed since.
Try the Atkins Diet.

OK Big Bloke, it can be very helpful having 26st in the boat struggling with the kite up on a shy reach, sadly not quite so quick in fitful winds inland!  Even at the top 22st is a competitive weight AFAIK but 26 is OTT

weight is also useful to keelboat designers - so presummably Uffa Fox had to re-think that one for his ff a few years later!

Uffa carefully differentiated between weight and ballast.

Ever sailed an FF to windward it goes like a crab!

Perhaps the time has come to copy the Star Class, The Dragon Class and a few others and have a max/min crew weight? Min might be better in a M/R? Then the tubbys would stand a chance.

A FF only goes to windward like a crab if it is healing at all!!

The fastest upwind in all classes which, I have been involved with are the flatest. Weight is useful sometimes..maybe not in a 2kt drifter though??

No at all times healing doesn't help but there has to be some power applied by the rig, you should be drinking champagne and not yottin' in 2knpts of wind

Not sure whether Steve Charlie Bret or Alan would agree with your summary of how FF's perform to Wind - Old Moore

Interesting that you bring up the fifteen though - the lightest successful duo used to sport an M7 with minimal luff curve and spreaders well forward - the heaviest a telegraph pole with prebend and a HUGE luff

When ever I see a secondhand carbon rig for sale - its "carbon" there seems to be little definition on bend characteristics it seemed easier when it was protor C, M1, M3, or M7.

What would be the effect of changing 9(b) to 

14 - (0.6x(L+0.68))

Would this alienate our light feather weight's?

Anyway - thanks for the encouragement on the diet and exercise front.

NSMII Man have you bought that carbon boom?

stick to the bolly then!

Do you wear a hairy sweater and work in the computer industry? Are you an actuary? This is all far too geeky!

Not at all – I could be forgiven for thinking that the only sure way for a heavy weight to get and Merlin to go fast is to flog it at a bargain price – Bret would be happy with another order for a bare hull.

But in the interests of development what effect would a big jib have on the fleet?

a big jib would not be a development that would be a change.
develop within the rules not by changing them.

i reckon a big jib would have the same impact as making it 15 foot long, or nine foot wide, or 10 kgs less.....

The only way to reduce the impact of crew weight differential between boats is to make the crew weight insignificant when compared with the overall weight. So increase the minimum weight to 350kg and all will be solved!!

Sad but right, time for a change!

How'bout making the rig LOTS more powerful? eg. carbon wing mast/plank, plus sail cut for max. poke. (not that I've got a vested interest here....see email name).

The thing about crew weight is that no heavyweight has invested any money in something differant in the class since Dave Fowler commisioned 3542. Given the amount these things cost for something that may or may not work i don't really blame them, but there is scope within the class rules to build a boat that carries more weight.

It's the same with the rig as well. I'll bet every boat doing the circuit has 2.8sqm jibs, a 5720mm luff and 2503 foot on the main with the mast always 53 inches behind the jib tack (Om nearly every boat i've measured anyway.) 90% of the fleet are using the same sailmaker too, and pretty much all the front runners are using Chipstow masts.

There is also scope within the rules to make the rig more powerful to carry more weight - you don't have to have a whippy mast, you don't have to have a 2.8sqm jib etc, etc. But these risks all cost money, and mistakes can be expensive (W**g mast??) but this is a cheaper way of experimenting than building a new boat.

I suppose we're curently a sort of self imposed one-design fleet really! This has however happened before. We were saying at Blithfield the other day that in the mid-late seventies (Before i was around anyway!) if you didn't have a Rowsell hull, Proctor D and Mcnamara sails you weren't even considered to be opposition! And in those days there were few lightweights sailing in the class.

a couple of observations.

if the class is effectively OD, then why is the product sooooo expensive?

and who is the sailmaker with 90% market share?  we should be told.

Perhaps we should have a handicap system based on how fat you are.  The fat people could start early.  For the afternoon races they could start during lunch.  After a couple of seasons this would be self-correcting.

self correction would only work if you managed to know when to stop otherwise all the fatties would be thinnies and all the thinnies would be fatties and losing and that would just not be on.  We would have just gone full circle.

Now you’re onto something.  We could force feed all the thin people until they became whales.

But Tom can’t take his beer, how would he cope with my excellent cakes?

stuff handicaps.  how about those people with less money having slower boats than those who have more money.  

I suppose that those with less money could try and get more - this might help them lose weight if that is also an issue with them - all that worry about where the money would come from would likely help a few pounds fall off

There is nothing in the rules to stop you trying a very different rig with a big jib, altered mast height etc.  But the 2.8m jib produces an efficient rig for the area & the sail area/mast height compromise is best at the 5720 luff for all-round performance, though you may very well be better with a longer luff and less area on the river.  There were a number of different spinny shapes on offer in the early days of that rule change but that seems to have stabilised too.  What us fatties need is a couple of years when all the meetings it's blowing old boots & we havent had it.

This all makes good sense - trying out something different is expensive and if it doesn't work the only bench mark is what we are currently using. From the comments above what the class is missing is a stiff sensible mast an M7 in carbon. I don't feel my rig is that underpowered a reduced cross section which is lighter I wreckon would do the trick - bit of a mare in gusts though but I'll live with that.

I'm sure Alan Jackson (Chipstow) would happily build you a one off stiffy (can I say that on this forum?).  However, Jacko currently offers three different lay up specifications on his standard carbon masts.  Interestingly it is alledged that Davo and GT are using the bendiest version on Rong Number, so maybe stiff isn't the way to go for heavyweights (not that I'm implying that Davo or GT might be considered heavy!!!!)

Also, the MKII Proctor carbon Merlin mast was a stiff section.  They never proved popular and I'm not sure they are still in production, but there are stiff carbon sections out there if you really want one.

theres the answer - spend more money!