I just had a mail from the FFV, confirming that they are prepared to operate an 'old boats' handicap for Merlins at the French Open in Quiberon in August,- well that is if any of you come!,- I will make more noise nearer the date;- it was originally a suggestion from the committee. For variable handicaps, I did give them the detals on the PY page, but they say that's much too complicated. I would like to suggest, on your behalf, PY+25 for 3500-3000, and PY+50 for <3000. What do you think?

Since I see that there have been other threads about PY & older boats, I'll put this up again, having failed to elicit any response either here or from committee members I have mailed directly.

The situation is simply that at the French Open 2010 we (2988) got hammered with PY 1004!! We will be there again in 2011, tgether with older French Merlins. The FFV say the recommended older boat rating system is too complicated for them, and I was just trying to find a simpler 'rule of thumb' that would be reasonably fair in the unlikely event that anyone else turns up.

If I don't receive any comment to my suggestion above in the next few days, I'll put that to the FFV anyway.

Hi Rod, won't they go for the 'official' handicaps? 

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/technical/handicaps.htm

then it's in line with the association and is easy to apply to the small number of boats it will need to be applied to.

The flip side is that as its all a bit of fun it perhaps wouldn't matter what PY they gave the merlins!

I have to declare that I have placed a booking with a well known ferry operator travelling to Roscoff over the last weekend in July.  The booking cost £25 and I may have to forfeit it if I can't save the pennies in time, but It was such a great place to sail it's worth making the effort.

as a link

By the proposed PYs I'd be racing off 1006 and Foreign Affaire off 1056 if I'm reading it right, which doesn't take in to account my pre-eminence in sailing the wrong course, falling in and general ineptitude, but I shan't be asking for any quarter from the French organisers lol

If anyone else is tempted, as an aproximation of the budget we're working on, the crossing with Brittany Ferries was £540 for a car, no roof box, a large trailer (boat) and seats for four. Depending on your preference for travel, the costs are similar for Portsmouth or Plymouth, and the tunnel with Tesco vouchers is relatively inexpensve at around £220 but involves a longer drive plus more fuel costs.

The on site accomodation last year worked out at around £30 per person per night for bed, breakfast,lunch and dinner on site.  Camping would be around £5 per person per night less expensive.

The costs for eating 'off site' can be whatever you would like them to be of course, there are many options in the village nearby, but its a holiday area during the French holiday month of August, so it could be busy and moderately expensive if you like to eat out alot!

The selling point is being at a location which is entirely focused on sailing, the entry fee (£46 per person last year) provides racing on 3 days (poss 4 this year)with 2 training days and if you wanted to stay on, launching and sailing as much as you want.

I'm sure as soon as their web site starts to feature the event for 2011 there will be more detail available.

Hi Kieron,
 
Handicaps are always unfair on someone That said, sailing off 1006 seems unfair on us, let alone on Cedric in his recently restored 2608, who has said that they will definitely come. The FFV contacted me to tell me that they had accepted the principle of variable handicaps for a development class, but found the 'official' system too complicated,- these are Frenchmen, right? They suggested just 2 levels, new boats and old boats, and asked me to name a cut-off point. I figured the 3 levels I propose would be less unfair, roughly being new boats, other low bow tank boats, and the rest. If the general feeling is that this doesn't work then I don't mind telling them that we'll all sail off 1006 and take it like men. After all, if we were trying to win we'd have given up long ago anyway.

All a bit theoretical unless others join in. As we found in 2010, it's a great sail and wonderful location, and need not be expensive if planned in advance. Fuel cost hikes don't help, but it's probably further for us than many in the UK.

Quote RYA 
“All users of the RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme should be aware that the RYA actively encourage all clubs to provide fair racing. The Portsmouth Number list below is offered as guidance to clubs that should enable fair racing for most clubs. However, if the numbers below do not work for any individual club or class, then they are encouraged to amend these. For more information, please contact the RYA Technical Department ([email protected])”
“* Development classes where the Portsmouth Number is likely to vary depending on the age and design of the boats. Clubs should consider adjusting the Number where it does not reflect the performance of a particular boat (excluding Crew Skill Factor)”
If the club is to use the scheme they should take part in it. The word Fair can only be defined as fair when every competitor is moaning.

Hi Rod, it really makes very little difference to me what the PY number is - its a holiday for us and a holiday with the boat has to be better than one without it - the surroundings, chatter and new sailing conditions are why we go. I'm happy to sail off 1006. The new French guys are new to Merlins in an elderly boat just restored and so you represent our most experienced and capable Rocketeer, and I'll go along with whatever arrangement you make.  

I have no way of understanding of why the organisers accept the concept of a development class that spans as many years as ours, but then wants to put it into three sections when we have an RYA agreed handicap system, but that's their perogative I suppose!  In terms of fairness, I don't suppose the other competitors care two hoots about our PY so why should the organisers. 

In answer to the original question, in my opinion we should propose that they use the recognised categories in the approved handicap system, as someone has spent alot of time working out the different banding for the handicaps. How about this for disussion? 

1999 onwards 3554 onwards Current Portsmouth Number (use this one -3554 - +0)
1989-1999 3430-3553 Current Portsmouth Number +10 (ignore this one)
1984-1988 3331-3429 Current Portsmouth Number +20 (use this one 3331-3553 +20)
1979-1983 3157-3330 Current Portsmouth Number +30 (ignore this one)
1974-1978 2833-3156 Current Portsmouth Number +40 (ignore this one)
1969-1973 2165-2832 Current Portsmouth Number +50  (use this one 2165-3330 +50)
1964-1968 1616-2164 Current Portsmouth Number +60 (ignore this one)
1959-1963 895-1615 Current Portsmouth Number +70  (ignore this one
1954-1958 500-894 Current Portsmouth Number +80 (ignore this one)
Before 1954 Below 500 Current Portsmouth Number +90 (Use this one 0-2165 +90)

In that way, if we ever need to invoke a more detailed handicap system to be used at French events, the categories don't need to be reworked more than necessary?

Perhaps a MROA policy for overseas competitions could be developed?  Are their PYs for say a 505 or 470 the same in the UK as in France?

Don't forget Tesco clubcard vouchers can buy channel tunnel crossings and it's a lot cheaper than Brittany Ferries even when you add the extra fuel. You now get tunnel vouchers for three times clubcard voucher face value so why not get something good out of the family shopping trips?

I got a reminder yesterday from the FFV, who want to move on. I propose to suggest Kieron's format; 'Speak now, or forever hold your peace!'

This has now moved on. Since the FFV wanted a simpler system than the official one, I recommend Kieran’s suggestion of sticking to the same sail number/year cut-off points, mais missing few of the ‘steps’ in the approved system.

The FFV have now come back and say that they want just two levels, new boats at 1005(they also round off to the nearest 5 points) and an older boat handicap. Since we don’t really know who might come this has bound to be unfair on someone. The only ones I’m sure of are us #2988 and Cédric Nicolas #26xx(I forget).

a)	I say, for e.g., 1055 for all boats <#3000
b)	I give Cédric an advantage, saying 1055 for all boats less than, say, #2800. Tough on us, but we can live with it.
c)	We say we’ll all sail off 1005 and take it like men.

If, as seems likely nobody else will come, a) seems best, since I think all boats in France are <3000, and if any new Winders want to give it a try it’s still reasonably fair; the problem would be with people like Kieron(Mason).

I have explained to the FFV that there is no single fair cut-off point in our class, but they insist on not more than 2 levels.

Since I represent the class here, what shall I say?

How about 'Zut Alors'or even 'Regardez ici mon brave homme' I thought that was all sorted out?

Seriously, why not go for one of the bands anyway, and say anything less than 3156  sails off PY +40, which I think is the pre NSM break point. The next logical one is the pre 'Tales point in 1989, lower than 3429 sailing off PY+20  Can't see their logic regarding rounding down to 3150? still the same number of digits - there will be some explaing to do if 3154 turns up, lol
I think it's only sail numbers after the 'plastic hulled winders were introduced who sail off the std PY number in the current handicap bands.

So long as they are all roughly in line with what we do over here it shouldn't make much difference. We were among the slowest in the fleet anyway, by PY number, couple of 420s and the boat with the two juniors in it

Just off to cut some gun ports in the top planks and fit a bow chaser to slow down the 505's with the big spinnys

Unless its included in the silver tiller I think the event will be more of a Merlin friendly holiday destination than anything else, which suits us just fine! Would be great to see more Merlins all the same.

Hello everyone
After reading the various proposals to Rod about the FFV is indeed a pity not to have 3 levels. Difficult to change the French protectionism. So we have to do with 2 levels that I think is an improvement over last year. I think that visit our beautiful country, racing in a beautiful place and in addition to a good result in the regatta is a must to return the following years. Indeed proposal B benefit older boats like us (MR 2608) now it's difficult for me to know if there is a big difference between the numbers 2800 and 3000 because I have not been able to sail against other MR . From now on the water with a rating of 1005 is too bad for the oldest boat even though we know it's hard to beat a 5o5 but playing the bottom of the ranking is not very motivating either. The specialists of the class as you will be able to make the right choice between A or B.

Hi Cedric, you're quite right - it would be unreasonable to expect boats of the age of yours,and Rod's to race on the same PY number as a modern Winder Merlin.  It seems to me that the difference between boats of 2600 and 3000 is small compared with the step change in hull design of the Canterbury Tales around 1989, c. sail 3430, so I would propose we use that date and sail number as the break point - higher sail numbers sailing off 1006 and lower numbers sailing with PY +50 which is what I think your boat should sail on anyway by the handicap system.
On the 6th of August we can relax with a glass or two of the local cider and reflect on what difference it made, and how we might sail better next time! We may need to persuade Rod to paint his boat blue of course.

Why blue?, leader wears yellow.

Well, I guess I'll just have to make sure that the combination of carbon spars, laminate sails and a 'bit' of weight on the side make a 50pt difference on the day! taking the time to locate the windward mark might go some way to improving performance of course. Lets hope they have a tractor again this year though!

Hi all! 
I did not know that FFV was inclined with the idea of several handicaps for boats from the same class, that's a good point and I hope it will continue on other IND regattas.
I approve using year 1989 as a break point (perhap's because my boat is older...).
We will try to be there to enlarge the small fleet of French MR, depending of the holidays my girlfriend will obtain...

Adrian (MR 3271, Penelope, Normandy)

Hi Adrian - will be good to see Penelope and the French Merlins did you ever get the spinaker poles and sail you were looking for? I can bring things to the Open meeting for you if it saves posting difficult objects, let me know if there are things you need,  Kieron

Thanks Kieron, I could not get the stuff I wanted. I am still looking for a big kite and long poles but I cannot get it through e-bay so I waited to get enough money to order new ones on the ad-hoc websites...
Yet I retain your proposal. Thank you, I will inform you if I ever see something interesting in GB...