Dear All

Just to say we are looking forward to welcoming you on the 9th and 10th October.

The Vintage boats will show us the way on the 9th starting at 11.00 am (or more likely when Mervyn is ready!) with two further races after lunch. 

The bar will be open all day and we will lay on some food in the evening: either fish or chips or something Italian most probably.

The Sunday is open to all racing for the Sondown Cup and Elizabeth Bowl for the first vintage boat. Again, racing starts at 11.00 with two races to follow.

I will be posting the Notice of Race up on the Tamesis website very shortly.

Cheers

Details for the Tammy vintage and silver tiller open meetings here

bump!

Should be a good well attended event with many of the visitors making up the 17 entry at Upper Thames saying they are coming.

Sadly we can't make it as we have family commitments, but I am sure it will be well supported. Enjoy.

Hi All

Looking forward to all making an appearance at Tammy this weekend.

Sun and Breeze, lining up to be a great weekend!

be good to have an idea of numbers for Saturday evening meal
Food will be £8.50 per person

See you there!

Balmy!

Just want to say thanks for a great day on Saturday.  The conditions were a bit tricky, but the welcome was warm.  Well done!

But who won whats the gossip?

Simon Blake won followed by three tamesis boats.  Very good effort by Simon and alex in very tricky river conditions

Like a serial thriller, a few more details of the top few places at the Tamesis Silver Tiller meeting on 10th Oct before the full results and report come out shortly

Sondown Cup 10th October 2010 - Results	
Boat No	Helm	        Crew	         Club	      Total  Position
3707	Simon Blake 	Alex Jackson	Shoreham	2	1
3347	David Vines	Fran Gifford	Tamesis	        3       2
1079	Richard Harris	Harry Harris	Tamesis	        3       3
3088	Andy Harris	Rob wilder	Tamesis  	3	4
3702	Duncan Salmon	Ian Garwood	Wembley	        5       5
3560	Mike Stephens	Nikki Erskine- Tulloh	Tamesis	5	6
607	Berry Ritchie	Sue Harris	Tamesis	        7       7
		
				

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=154334

I was at Tamesis all day on Sunday. Now we have the detailed results common sense says that Richard Harris should have been declared 2nd and David Vines 3rd. Richard had better results overall 1,2,2 against David's 3,2,1. Also I believe (but am not certain) that Richard beat David in the race in which they met. As mentioned in the Y & Y report their positions were decided in accordance with the RYA rules which in this instance seem to have led to an unfair result.

In another similar situation an outcome like this could affect the result of the Silver Tiller.

Jesus!

no walking on water, thank you!

If you go by when they met then DV would have been 4th as he lost to RH and AH when they met in different races. 
It's all down to the seeding, if DV & RH had swapped groups then RH may well have won the ST as after beating Simon in the first race they would not have met again........

Time for harris folk to accept the new river world order and to try to do something about it on the water :)

Robert is quite correct and fair in what he says, though I am sure that the scorer applied the rules! It is not logical and frankly confusing. Neither Robert nor I are strangers to the vageries of scoring I recall (- Oh so long ago!-) Robert pointing out at Tamesis a similar anomoly that meant he did not win the Sondown Cup but I did. I never liked flights very much and much preferred the now seldom used system of seeded heats and a final and a consolation race. At least you know the winner of the final is the winner! In passing though mention should be made of "Passing Cloud" in her 50th year especially as she has been in constant use over those years, a tribute to her owners and her builder Jack Holt.

Robert is quite correct and fair in what he says, though I am sure that the scorer applied the rules! It is not logical and frankly confusing. Neither Robert nor I are strangers to the vageries of scoring I recall (- Oh so long ago!-) Robert pointing out at Tamesis a similar anomoly that meant he did not win the Sondown Cup but I did. I never liked flights very much and much preferred the now seldom used system of seeded heats and a final and a consolation race. At least you know the winner of the final is the winner! In passing though mention should be made of "Passing Cloud" in her 50th year especially as she has been in constant use over those years, a tribute to her owners and her builder Jack Holt.

Robert, don't forget your other Nephew, using your logic DV would have come 4th with AH 3rd...

I demand a recount...

David's story about the Sondown Cup gives me the chance to boast that despite David beating me on that occasion I did win The Sondown Cup twice, the first time was in 1958 sailing my Dad's  superb first Holt boat 'Dizzy' no. 490. My brother John had won it the previous year also in 'Dizzy' when he was still sailing Cadets! 

As far as I remember there were no groups or heats in the 50s, we all sailed together in bigger fleets but I may be wrong.

la de da - see you at Hampton :)

DV as normal you wee wll beaten on the water......

yawn

A "new river world order"!. You were only a rather dodgy 2nd last Sunday.

rooster or leaping salmon......:)

Anyway, it was a great days sailing and very well organized and run by JH given the less than optimal wind direction.

Indeed although I blame him for the dodgy seeding......

what are these rules that were applied that are much spoken of?
by discard DV was a clear 3 or 4 surely?
by last race DV beats AH but does the rule take into account that AH beat DV in their heat?
how can it all be so confusing?
I rarely sail these days but the concept of flights and a final medal race would be a lot easier to follow.

A8 SERIES TIES
A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.
A8.2 If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race and so on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

The last race rule is not fair when there are groups as you race against different people in each race. By sheer luck DV's last race was the easiest and included none of the 4 race winners from the earlier 2 races( 2 x 2 starts) ....

Perhaps a fairer method would be in order:

1. Who won when the boats met
2. Discard
3. Last race

Actually it would be interesting to know what tie breaker rule applies in the Thames Series?  Probably wont come to it as Mr Salmon is firmly in the driving seat but you never know.

Sorry AH. I agree as PC pointed out if ties were decided as suggested by WP my other nephew would have finished 3rd overall.

lord give me strength and help me to bite my tongue :)

sorry the good lord has let me down.... Robert I appreciate these pseudonyms are confusing but it may help you to know that PC WP TC etc are all the same people - your nephews.  So if you would like a debate about how you was wronged you might as well save it for the Sunday Dinner table!

Sorry AH, you're right of course. My other nephew should have been 3rd and DV 4th if a logical, fairer tie break system had been used.

In the MROA's Silver Tiller rules the RYA solution to breaking ties is used for events run with and without the group system. My comments and those by PP, WP and others lead me to believe that they are inappropiate for the group system of running events. 

I have not sailed in a ST event for at least 25 years but I do watch and photograph a lot of MR racing, indeed I was in the Tamesis rescue boat all day on Sunday.

deep breath, sigh....................sayonara

What if PC, WP, TC are my nephews, what they've written makes sense to me. And who the hell is DV?
 
I've not been wronged, in my day we either all sailed together or had seeded heats, a final and a consolation race as suggested by David C. 

I remember one Tamesis End of Season Regatta when entries continued to be accepted after the 1st race started and we ended up with around 40 boats racing together on the Teddington reach!

Maybe you adopt DV, that's of course assuming he reaches the required helming standard for a Harris nephew...
Ok that's unlikey.....

Who the hell were they :0

All this arguing over 2nd, 3rd and 4th place!  Perhaps all the mysterious pseudonyms concerned should head out onto the river again to fight it out on their own, umpired by PP if he wants to come out of retirement.  On second thoughts, maybe having PP as umpire wouldn't be such a great idea.

...they will be most Sundays through the winter - deep joy. Not pp of course he's too chicken:)

At a guess I would say dv is David Vines

So if it is he, he is only a 2nd cousin to Roberts nephews and on the distaff side?

If they argue too much could the cousins be twice removed?

To bring a more serious note to the question of breaking tied results.  

In the absence of any alternative MORA guidance,we determined the results of the Tamesis Sondown Cup Silver Tiller Meeting using the current RRS Appendix A8 tie break rules quoted by PP above.  As intimated these do not necessarily provide a fair result when flights are used, as they were at Tammy this year, at Salcombe and at Hampton in the past, and possibly elsewhere.  

If a fairer system is needed then it would be useful for the MORA to decide before the 2011 series start on the most appropriate method, eg flights plus a final 'medal' race, or using results where tied helms meet in the same race, so that clubs holding open meetings, Silver Tiller etc can apply an acceptable standard procedure when the RRS Appendix A8 would not produce a fair result.  

The guidance should also clearly indicate when the MORA procedure applies in preference to the RRS.

Finger trouble, for MORA read MROA!

For example

A8 SERIES TIES
A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.

A8.2 If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked in order of their scores in the last race IN WHICH BOTH BOATS COMPETED. Any remaining ties shall be broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race IN WHICH BOTH BOATS COMPETED and so on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

Ok I vote we change the rule and then go back and amend the Tammy result.........

Don't you mean PC...? Busted

Sorry I meant DV