I know that the Merlin PY sometimes comes under scrutiny/attack, and I know that the RYA can only adjust figures on the basis of results received, but does anyone have a reasonably objective view of what the Phantom PY should actually be?  

Having spent the weekend watching from behind (a long way behind) while a well-sailed Phantom knocked spots off a reasonably competent RS400 on the water in a steady F3, I can't understand how it ever came to be so generously handicapped.

And incidentally, the guy is another ex-Merlin man.

with carbon 1024

The Phantom PY is what it is, based on the returns to the RYA. Exactly the same situation as the Merlin.

Dont forget that the results returned include Phantoms with Ali spars so this brings down the PY. Exactly the same situation with the Merlin.

On flukey restricted waters a Phantom is unbeatable as they are so responsive and you can chuck them around. You just cant do that in a Merlin.

Now the RS400, that is a different story. Yes its a one design, so you could argue that the PY is fairer, however on restricted inland waters its very rare that you can sail them to their PY.

So in summary, if you argue that the Phantom PY should be reduced then so should the Merlin for exactly the same logic.

Just my 0.02p worth.

Cheers

We have a Heron which is unbeatable off handicap at our club.  In an hour in 1728 I finished 8mins ahead of it but still was well adrift of beating it.  An RS 400 was similarly stuffed.  It has been decided that the only thing that can overcome it is a Wayfarer - sailed at full speed, hitting it amidships - preferably  below the waterline, rupturing 75% of the buoyancy tanks and bending the mast.  Even then we aren't sure that we would beat it as it appears that it can win standing still or even going backwards!!

Points taken and thanks all.  1024 sounds closer to the truth, but represents such a big change I doubt if we'll ever see it.  Maybe I'll try and wangle something local, like a bucket tied on the back.

Incidentally we are not talking restricted water - Inner Moray Firth is 2 miles wide.  And Garry's point about the Heron rings a bell - I used to do the same in a Vagabond forty years ago.  Plus ca change.

The Phantom handicap is fair in comparison to most of the boats that are used.  Remeber that carbon only really came out in the phantom class at sail no around 950 and epoxy hulls much later.  Meaning that there are many more boats without carbon rig and heavier hulls, thus slower boats.  On restricted water in a handicap race a well sailed solo is quicker ( on handicap)  and on open water a phantom is going to sruggle like hell against an rs300  -  I should know i sailed a phantom for 3 years before melins

Byte CII are being sailed under the Byte Standard handicap. The Byte association are having a laugh about it as it makes the byte look great. Not fair on the people who follow the RYA path of sailing Toppers and Lasers.

Recieved your letter ,will try and gather some information on the remaining merlins in orkney.

Also I guess the Phantom in a F3 is in it's element. Totally powered up and shifting. Any more or less and it would perhaps struggle a little...
I say struggle but actually (as with the Merlin) the handicap is pretty good in a wide range of wind and wave conditions.

in defecnce of the phantom, cos i sail one, in light winds they stick a bit, too much wetted surface area, in force 3-4 great bye bye all, above that overpowered and lose out cos you have 2 people to keep the boat flat so they lose out again, so in that limited wind strength they are virtually uncatchable, especially given not the overall speed but the acceleration.

too big for a merlin you know where the answer is !!!!!

The 2006 season saw the Phantom H'cap cut again to 1045, this continues a trend 'downwards' that reflects the boats undoubted ability in mid range conditions. There are strings on other class forums (singlehanders that compete directly with the Phantom) where it has been noted that st some clubs, where the handicap system is 'managed' as intended, Phantoms are still winning on 1035!!!!

Hmmmm..... tough one that!

D

I agree completely with lard arse, in forse 3-4 phantom cleans up in light winds they can be a bit of a dog, slow to tack!  So this is reflected in the handicap.

Won't a phantom be really nicely depowerable with that carbon mast and raking rig?

they have them

ever heard the phrase "people in glass houses shouldn't........"
I would be happy to review handicaps, lets look at Phantom,RS300,RS200,GP14,Solo,Merlin,Fireball and there are lots more I am sure.

Its always an interesting exercise to rework some of your clubs results with different handicaps... you'll usually find that to make any great difference at the front of the race changes of around 15, maybe 10 points are the bare minimum.

Countless years ago at Minima Y.C. on the Thames at Kingston we had personal handicaps which I believe were amended each week based on performances in our well attended Saturday handicap series. PCs hadn't been invented but fortunately we had a couple of mathmatical geniuses.

Yes Robert and from memory it was a pursuit series too, so first to finish won! It was started from a very big clock that did the Race Officers work for him only problem was it made one lazy about keeping one's own time.

At Shoreham ( a good boat speed test ) there was a force 4 race featuring a past Phantom champ ( 6th this year ) and the Warrens . The phantom was first at the first mark but Will won on corrected time by 90 secs and Al beat  the Phantom by 30 secs - and this was using the PY of 1000 for Al and Will !!
Perhaps it's the Merlin PY that needs looking at - bids at around 990 welcome !!

just to let you know last weekend force 3+, reaching and fetches as a course phantoms cleaned up nicely.

At them Minima long distance race yesterday, we won in a Thames A-Rater with a nominal handicap of 900 (same as a 5o5).  Yesterday our handicap was 'adjusted' to 750 and we still won!  Still don't think that an A-Rater is as fast as a 49er though (747)...!

The handicap of all boats is optimised to the course / conditions experienced. The phantom does have a good handicap in a force 2-3 espically on flat inland waters with some good shifts as it tacks easily & quickly and with an all up sailing weight of just over 60Kgs why not!!!. The handicap has been amended by the RYA since the inclusion of Carbon adjustable rigs & epoxy hulls but by a significant margin and why should it? the current handicap is for all boats & the pre carbon / epoxy boats do normally sail at around handicap 1050. One point I should make is Merlin handicap is also very favourable with your shiny full adjustable rigs etc... and you have done better than the Phantom at many of the major handicap / pursuit races.

See you all on the water soon. 

Phantom luver.