Hi Does anyone have any close up pictures of a carbon mast and fittings  Spreader attachment etc . Whats the favoured profile  for the section.Round or oval? Whats liked and not liked on your carbon stick?

There are some close up photos and info on Jackos web site.  His masts really set the standard - excellent product.

Chipstow and Superspare are both round sections. The only no round section I know of is the Mk1 Proctor. My brokeb one was on e-bay (now sold) but there are quite a few pictures still on the listing.

Wy arent there any oval sections? Carbon. Is there a reason for this?

Beacause they seem to break. Fairly often.

Sorry to keep asking. I want to get it right.So If the oval section ones did not break ,this would be the favoured shape? I see your carbon proctor has stainless pop riveted components on it.Was there a reason for this ?Why not carbon components? And glued not riveted? Soon as you rivet carbon its going to break! Thankyou for your answers.

Interestingly the two carbon masts I have broken broke no where near rivets.

AS I remember Alans comments when selling his broken spar I recall it was broken by attempting to use it as a pilling rig on the sea bed was it not? which I'd suggest is the reason for such a widespread fracture.

Admiral I've sent an email to you direct on the tubes/process I used to build my stick last summer, any 'queries' give us a call regards Barry.

Noone has done any good with an oval section mast for a long time hence why noone uses them. 

Round sections have dominated the fleet for a number of years, and i'd suggest that oval sections will not become the favoured shape until they start winning things.

As for the science as to why i don't know. Round sections just seem to work better than oval ones!

I've spoken to 'Admiral' on this and I believe the overwhelming reason for round tubing being promanant is purely one of cost in relation to performance gain.Most spar makers / designers recognise the gains & therefore the advantage of an 'oval' section which in basic is to engineer an increase in fore & aft stiffness without over doing the atwartship properties of a spar. If you look at all the 'big' carbon spar manufacturers you will see they all have a range of engineered 'oval/non round' sections this is possible due to the usual economies of scale & volume. In short in dinghy masts there is not the quantifiable noticable gain in performance to justify the expense of tooling & producing such a section when starting with round tube and then adding carbon to certain ares to produce the bend configeration they require has evolved into the market leader in performance & development.
If any new section were to be put on the market it would need to be heavily worked up by top jockeys to establish itself in any class to become the 'must have'spar, cost interestingly is not the overwhelming factor in performance classes some might think. Like sails the promise of speed generally is at a premium recouping devopment costs & funding future ones (& bmw's)etc. To those of us dabling in our garages it all makes for therapeutic interest (better than decorating/gardening in the winter!) but ask us to make sails & masts commercially not likely!
Anyway work beckons regards Barry.

Thanks Guys ,so what is the top alu section profile ?

So why do non round sections break more than round ones?

Carbon seems to be structurally vulnerable where there is a sharper edge, such as on the Proctor Mk II.

Also the Merlin rig wants to be flexible.

Where then is the advantage in an oval spar?

Yes we know that about sharp edges .So what is the top alu profile ?

As you are starting to be a tad rude, I don't mind being blunt. Read the literature available on the site! see link!

You might find this dicussion useful, similar kind of question being asked.

Admiral I believe the Superspar M7 is the favoured alloy section deck or hog stepped, obviously all the serious guys (& girls) use carbon. Ive just altered my NSM to deck steped and have altered both the Carbon & my old trusty Beta minus to suit. It my be out of fashion now but it's done us proud (we weigh in at 24/25 stone)The M7 is a Proctor D 'Development, Ken Bracknell the originater of Superspars was formally at Proctors hense the simarlarity, I believe he's now retired shame he was good to talk to nice guy. regards Barry.

Actually towards the end of the alloy mast era I think it was the M1 which was the dominant section, although I think the M7 was still used by the heavies.

how can you tell an M1 from an M7 (serious question)?

The difference can be discerned from the thickness of the mast. If you go to the superspars site it gives you the different sizes(measured from the base of the mast I believe).

M1 = 55 mm x 68 mm
M7 = 57 mm x 69 mm

Rich

So Admiral/Spliff the Skiff/Graham Connor Racing Finish, has someone commisioned you to build them a mast?

Were we more or less useful than the people on Sailing Anarchy?

So are you planning on making these commercially or just a home build garage kind of thing?

So caps lock giveaway are you going to buy one ?

No thanks Admiral but I'll take them out and break a few for you while we work on what works best if you like?

You could even sponsor the association to publicise them - perhaps a trophy or a barrel of beer or something?

Let us know when you've built a couple of prototypes and we'll go from there - I'll even post my real name - wouldn't that be a novelty.

BTW did you sell any on Sailing Anarchy?

Noone will buy one until you tell us what your product offers that is better than the already excellent competition.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  Beer.Go on then post your name .Done the round hoops in carbon ,off to do square ones next .take it easy.Oh and we will be doing carbon masts.

Well for one thing practical it wont have any stainless on it  at all  and it wont have a track stuck on the back. and all fittings will not be pop riveted.You wont have to morgage your house.

Sounds neat

Fair play to you for talking about developing something so noble as a winning mast on a budget but........

1)  Despite all Proctors many years of manufacturing and Mast building experience their Oval + integral track masts have not been successful when compared to SS and Chipstow?

2)  I suspect that (as a guideline for non mass production) Chipstow prices reflect the enormous amount of effort and skill that goes into producing a reliable quick mast suggests that you won't be able to make it much cheaper.

3)  You'll probably need to break half a dozen masts before you get the amount of material right.  Given the above two factors, do you expect to recoup 2 or 3 grands worth of materials and 2 or 3 grands worth of time without supplying masts to about 10% of the top 200 boats in the fleet?

Build it try it get back to you. I use to work for Proctors in there carbon dept! and rod rigging .

Why do we have to break masts to get it right?

If it doesnt break as you cross the finishing line, you built it too heavy (Ben Lexcen).

so all masts are built to heavy?

I think it was engineering genius Colin Chapman who said

"If it ain't broke it's too heavy"

i.e. to have the best mast you will need to keep removing or adding material until you have the lightest product which provides adequate strength.

But if you worked at proctors you will know all that and the reasons why oval sections don't work and what's preferred.................

If alu oval section works then carbon oval should work .There is no reason why it should not! It all comes down to cost for the mandrill when its being filament wound. Filament winding tube round yes ,oval doubtfull.Filament winding can only wind in certain directions  ,hence breakages. There are three it cant wind !Pre preg leaves dry spots in the lay up as well . As discussed before build and  try.Thats what we are doing . Thanks for the comments.

so what was the answer to the original question? or did you know the answer all along?

So admiral how much are the Cabon hoops and where do you get them from ?? Dont think it will make much difference to my boat but it would look bloody cool

Admiral,

Fair play to you. Glad someone has the balls to further development.

I checked the website out stuf looks good, i will be placing some orders soon

Its worth noting that when masts have carbon tracks the track makes a significant contribution to the fore and aft stiffness, especially at the top, and so the fore and aft stiffness is greater than lateral.

http://www.racingfinish.co.uk/39180.html