Sail measuring at salcombe

07/06/2013 19:53:57
Chris M
Hi all.

If anyone is likely to want new sail measuring at salcombe week can you please email me or let me know via text/phone 07966687785.

The bad news - please start a thread separately on the rights or wrongs of this one, and if it's sensible in tone i'll contribute - is i'll have to buy the certification labels in advance. This will affect the cost of measurement which is now going to have to be £10 per sail or £25 for a suit. £3 of this goes straight to the RYA.

Last year I must have done 15 suits on the Saturday, I can't justify shelling out £150 (they come in 10s) on the offchance so please let me know if you require my services.

Thanks

08/06/2013 09:24:24
Steve Watson
The RYA recommended cost per ISAF sail is £15.  CM is doing a favour to you.

08/06/2013 10:25:41
David
Why don't you guys move to in house certification, all the major sail makers do it, in the Solo's you buy the sail measured, easy peasy, cannot believe this wasn't done years ago ....

08/06/2013 11:45:55
Chris M
David that's one for the other thread. There's a few things I want to look to up before I say any more

08/06/2013 21:48:36
3688wdw
Note me down please Chris sat morn or Friday night

10/06/2013 12:30:15
DaveC
It's in everyone's interest to have independant measurement, people make mistakes, even the professionals and the current system provides a good check and is especially important in a class where there is development of sails and rigs.

04/07/2013 12:27:39
Chris M
Bump!

I have Dave bursey, Alex jones, John cooper and Ben Hollis in the queue. I will be ordering labels on Monday, there will be no spares !

05/07/2013 09:27:43
Piers 3671
Hi Chris I have a set of HD sails you measured before Taxi gave them to me at Hayling - they dont have the RYA sticker - do I need one ? if so can I order them and pay you at Salcombe

05/07/2013 11:22:18
Jez3719
Mine don't have a sticker either. Graham measured them for me earlier this year. Is this something that I should have???

05/07/2013 11:23:30
ben hollis
mine measured now chris sorry

05/07/2013 12:39:47
Chris M
My take on stickers:

They are mentioned nowhere in our class rules.

However as a measured I have to comply with reasonable requests from the rya.

The rya have now requested that I use them. Any sails measurered previously are ok.

05/07/2013 13:41:04
David Child
It's a tax isn't it? It would be better if the tax went into MROA coffers as with some international classes.

05/07/2013 14:46:35
richardt
As these stickers are not mentioned in the class rules, do they not therefore class as advertising which is banned?

05/07/2013 14:52:03
Jon E
Intriguing, could one hypothetically be lobbed for not displaying a sticker?

05/07/2013 16:34:06
richardt
Surely one should be lobbed for displaying the sticker which presumably advertises RYA contary to class rules?

Perhaps one of our rules experts would care to comment?

05/07/2013 16:49:21
Antony
I am not clear how the class has come to agree to the tax without putting it to an AGM or into the rules...  Any new tax with no well explained need seems undesirable and I rather liked the old currency of paying for measurement in pints.. although they can also cost a fiver now....

05/07/2013 19:51:44
Chris M
It's pointless protesting, I have no choice.

All they will do is change our rules for us, like the build fee. I disagree wholeheartedly, but I am but the measurer................

05/07/2013 20:01:53
Chris M
We don't have to agree to this change. The RYA control our class rules, even an agm decision is only advisory in effect. It's not obvious but a bit has been inserted for this year that a build fee is paid for every boat built. You can bet that the same will be inserted for sails next year.

If you don't agree pester the rya there is nothing I can do as a measurer, and not a lot we can do as a committee. The more people do pester them, the more likely a more sensible solution will be reached than me shelling out £90 for sail labels with no effective guarantee of reimbursement......

It's a great cash generator but it makes sail measuring a royal pain in the neck to be honest as you can't do it off the cuff and have quite a bit of cash tied up in labels at any one time.

05/07/2013 22:13:51
David Child
|t what point in time did the RYA acquire the copyright of the Merlin Rocket Class, was it given away by the committee or snitched?

Given that the sail plan is pretty standard now isn't self measurement by the sail-maker the way to go. North for instance even class the Merlin Rocket as a One-Design!

05/07/2013 22:21:16
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
Urmmmmm, the February 2013 edition (the edition on the RYA web site, which are those in force) of the Class Rules makes no mention of labels, stickers or any other RYA memorabilia aside from the need for a plate to indicate the RYA fee has been paid on new hulls. Unless I am missing something the Rules haven't changed so I do not think that labels are required.

All that is required is the Measurer's signature on the sails.

05/07/2013 22:32:35
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
David - the RYA have ownership of the copyright of the Rules. It goes with the territory of being a National class and has been the case since 1951, I guess. That's a separate debate (and off piste for this thread).

Was the requirement for boats built after 01/01/2013 to have an RYA plaque voted through an AGM? I cannot recall any Rule changes in 2012 yet we now have Rule 18 b ii which has been helpfully highlighted for all.

06/07/2013 08:20:54
Chris M
Andy, I agree with you. The RYA it would seem do not.

06/07/2013 08:29:50
Chris M
What they should actually do is adopt a sail button system that is purchased by the sailmaker. the button is then checked at measurement and if it's not there the sail is not legal.

That way the guy in the middle (me) doesn't have to faff about, if you want sails measuring it can be done anywhere in 15 minutes with the minimum of equipment.

06/07/2013 08:36:31
Chris M
Lobbing people for not displaying a sticker:

I don't see how you can. There is no requirement in our rules for them. There are hundreds of thousands of sails out there measured before labels were even though of that must be grandfathered and no "sails measured before xx/xx/xx date to go by.

The RYA are "requesting" measurers to use them and as this is - or will be in their eyes - a "reasonable" request we as measurers have said we will do it on our declaration.

Basically this is a mess that came to head at Brightlingsea and needs sorting out properly. It's nothing to do with us as a class.

06/07/2013 22:17:51
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
I guess that actually, Chris, you could lob everyone WITH a sticker. They are advertising ....

Do new sail purchasers have the choice to NOT have the sticker? Is this even brought to anyone's attention?

Surely a reasonable request would be for the RYA to present their own "reasonable request" to the AGM (or at least let the membership know in the Magazine) of their intentions. We can then have a vote and a debate on it. Probably wouldn't change them imposing this on us, but at least it would have everything out in the open.

One for AOB at the AGM next Saturday?

08/07/2013 12:02:24
measurement man
The RYA are our National Authority, and can impose some constraints on the way that the class operates.

They will always (and always have) consult the class on matters that affect the rules, but do not forget that we are one of a number of National classes that they administer.

With regard to sail certification stickers; a number of years ago, and in a very transparent way, the RYA began a project to improve the quality of the certification of boats and equipment. Components of this project have included developing and adopting a 'standard method of measurement' in conformance with the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing so that a well trained group of measurers can apply a consistent standard of certification across all classes that come under their governance.

This is a sensible and logical ideal. It does not compromise a class's individuality, but it does ensure that all sails within a class are being properly measured to a uniform system and standard.

A further component of this project is to improve the accountability of sailmakers. By insisting that all sail measurers must:
- complete the RYA Sail Measurement Course
- as part of their Measurement Contract with the RYA, apply a certification sticker to each sail that they measure
- complete a return for all certification stickers used

the provenance of each sail becomes more auditable, and quality improves.

Bottom line is, it is irrelevant whether the certification sticker is referenced directly in our rules, it is a governance requirement from our National Authority.

Nothing to discuss at AGM..

GGGG

08/07/2013 16:35:12
concerned entrant
So does that mean sails measured after the stickers were enforced are not actually legally measured?
In the end thats all this is about - can we use sails with a measurers signature on but without the RYA stickers?

08/07/2013 18:58:42
Chris M
I've sent a message around the committee about this issue. Watch this space.

08/07/2013 21:45:30
d.h
so its going to cost people money to become a measurer...how many stickers do they keep in stock?what happens if you go to an event ..aka salcombe..and the guy runs out of labels? Is isaf conformation relative to a national class...all the measurers  i know are very professional in the way they go about their job,...would be interested on their take on this....

08/07/2013 22:11:39
measurement man
It has always cost people money to become a measurer, and the RYA has always encouraged measurers to charge properly for their services. This was one of the problems of the whole arrangement previously.. people just measured for their mates.. they weren't properly monitored for quality or the implementation of rule changes, and 'local' interpretations emerged, leading in some classes to major upheaval.

The number of stickers a measurer holds depends upon the frequency with which he measures and whether he knows he has some to do. It has always been unwise to arrive at a meeting and hope to collar a measurer, but it is extremely unwise to do so now. If the measurer doesn't have stickers with him, he now cannot certify the sail and you cannot therefore use it without risk of protest.

Hence the sensible post which started this thread....

With regard to sails that have previously been signed without certification sticker applied, we need to be pragmatic...

While it is an undesirable situation, we are where we are. Any sails measured and signed before this matter has been drawn to the attention of the wider membership, on or about the 1st July 2013 are ok.

This matter has been in the public domain (and certainly in the knowledge of all class measurers) since well before that, so sails signed after this date and without a certification sticker applied will be considered uncertified and not free for use without the risk of protest.

Hope this clarifies the position... any queries, please ring me..

GGG
07837 239958

08/07/2013 22:21:16
measurement man
sorry .. missed the query re ISAF and national class status...

The RYA is the Member National Authority implementing ISAF regulation in the UK.

There is no automatic link between a class in the UK conforming to ISAF standard ERS prescriptions, however when debated some years ago the MR AGM voted to continue as a National Class in order to continue to benefit from the technical support and administration of the RYA technical department. The quid pro quo was that we move to adopt the ISAF Standard Method of Measurement. This has been an overly drawn out process due to the way our class rules have evolved - partly 'Open' and partly 'Closed'.

We have been extremely careful during the process to ensure that, in the transition to the ISAF standard rules format, no changes to class rules (inadvertent or otherwise) have occurred, in other words, to be sure that we don't accidentally open a Pandora's Can of Worms, if I may mix my metaphors..

I am hoping that we will be able to conclude this protracted project in the foreseeable future.. but we are not there yet.

Hope that answers the question.

GGG

09/07/2013 07:59:05
David
Thanks for this explanation GGGGG. 
All is now clear as is how we got here from there!
If given sooner in a way that no one could have missed, it might have saved worry and heartache.

09/07/2013 13:20:23
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
Thanks for the explantion Graham, and whilst I completely understand the logic and methodology behind the logic, we now have the situation whereby the cost to the membership of having a new set of sails has increased (it is aleady fairly prohibitive) and a new Class Rule - you must have a sticker on your new sails - has been introduced via the back door without discussion. We have not (yet) introduced the ERS to our Rules, even though the Class AGM gave indication that the Rules should change: this is not the same as the Rules having been changed. As I am not a Measurer, I (and presumably the wider MR audience) are not privvy to the guidance or instructions given by the Governing Body, but as the cost bearing party, I deserve (at least) consultation.

For me to propose a couple of Rule Changes, I have had to circulate the wording 63 days prior to the AGM, we have had a discussion online here (which admittedly is optional) and the Rule proposals have been circulated to all members via the magazine. Since there has clearly been some confusion (which appears to also include the Measurers) perhaps a lesson could be learnt for the future. I have no problem with emergency Rule changes - such as the Tape Drive situation - but there should be a formal communication of the things that will affect the members. "General knowledge" cannot be assumed.

Regardings timings: surely the most correct way, would have been for the RYA to introduce the words "and official RYA sticker" in the relevant place, highlighted in red and publish this in the March 2014 Edition of the Rules. Date would then have been from the official date of publication, simples. Bit more unambiguous than "around the 1st July" .... of course this would be a delay but would give everyone visibility of the change.

Slightly off topic, but in a similar vein: the Solos have a proposal to change their Rules tabled at their AGM to allow for RYA Licenced Builders under a logic of "control" and "quality". This also cropped up when I was looking at the construction Rules (one of the reasons that project got stalled). It would be fair and reasonable for those imposing this change to justify the costs and demonstrate that quality and control would be improved in both cases.

09/07/2013 13:59:07
Steve Watson
As a sail measurer for 10 years or more I was also confused between the needs of the ISAF procedure and the MR national class procedure.  GGGG has made it clear that you now need stickers from around 1st July (I would anticipate some leeway here as that was dated after the 1st July.)

Anyway, I am afraid I don't have any stickers at present.

Yes the "couple of beers cost of sail measuring" days are probably gone. It was always more than measuring for ones mates. My charges went to the Midland Circuit fund and I was not shy about charging!

steve

09/07/2013 19:57:03
measurement man
Andy, it might be helpful in understanding the situation if you would differentiate between a class rule, and an administrative procedure of our governing body.

They are different things. With regard to cost, you have always had to pay for measuring so there really is no additional burden.

Enjoy Salcombe...

GGG

09/07/2013 20:08:31
David
I think Andy's point and mine could be distilled into timely information being passed on in a way that it can't be missed rather than by the rumour machines and "those in the know".

09/07/2013 21:30:04
Chris M
Important point:

Those with sails already measured can still use them as is. That is sorted.

I know there is a feeling that picking a date out of thin air is perhaps not an ideal solution, but this is not an ideal situation and we need to be a bit pragmatic.

The announcement that stickers were to be considered standard went out in 2010, it would seem I never got it for whatever reason. Not very satisfactory but it's happened. Lets get on with life, three days to go!

09/07/2013 21:31:29
Chris M
Delete this comment 
David

05/04/[email protected]:58:52
81.151.33.135 09 Jul 13 20:08
Important point:

Those with sails already measured can still use them as is. That is sorted.

I know there is a feeling that picking a date out of thin air is perhaps not an ideal solution, but this is not an ideal situation and we need to be a bit pragmatic.

Having spoken to Bas the announcement that stickers were to be considered standard went out in 2010, it would seem I never got it for whatever reason. Not very satisfactory but it's happened. Lets get on with life, three days to go

09/07/2013 21:32:01
Chris M
Important point:

Those with sails already measured can still use them as is. That is sorted.

I know there is a feeling that picking a date out of thin air is perhaps not an ideal solution, but this is not an ideal situation and we need to be a bit pragmatic.

Having spoken to Bas the announcement that stickers were to be considered standard went out in 2010, it would seem I never got it for whatever reason. Not very satisfactory but it's happened. Lets get on with life, three days to go

09/07/2013 21:41:26
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
GGGGG, at risk of being called a pedant (and I am expecting to be called worse!) the Class Rule 13 and 14 do not make reference to an RYA label / sticker. As a point of fact, Rule 13 would appear to preclude anything that is not the same fabric as the rest of the sail: normal tabbing, sail maker's logo, etc. etc.

Rule 14 requires the sail measurer to mark the relevant measurements and sign & date the sail (but not apply a sticker). Of course, you could argue that the sail measurer's mark is on the sticker that is then placed on the sail, but I believe that the intention would be for the sail to be so marked, not a label that is then placed on the sail.

At the very least a clarification should be appended to these Rules so that they then replicate the RYA "guidance". The RYA would be within their rights to do this in the next Rule edition as I previously intimated. I don't think that there is any distinction between this governance instruction and a Class Rule, especially where the Class Rule would appear to contradict the RYA governance instruction.

David's point is valid. The assumption of something being in the public domain (which it may or not have been) and being general knowledge (which it seems not to have been) is not good enough. Sorry.

I am not sailing at Salcombe, but am intending to enjoy the AGM (whatever the outcome) and Fran's chairing therein. Hopefully, the pause prior to the Pimms will not be too long.

09/07/2013 22:33:22
Alan3463
As someone who can only afford to buy sails that are some 5+ year old, I'd be interested to know how 'sticky' these stickers are... will they really stay put for years or am I likely to have to get an old set re-measured to get a new sticker?

09/07/2013 22:50:13
[email protected]
Please, please, lets not waste time at the AGM getting on the outrage bus.  We elect a committee to deal with stuff like this and I am sure they, in conjunction with our measurers, will investigate the facts, and notify us in due course.  Incidentally, except for one occasion, I have always been charged for measuring my sails - it was £5 a sail a long time ago so today's charge doesn't seem that unreasonable (although having written this I am hoping for a discount from Chris M on Saturday!

10/07/2013 07:51:23
Chris M
Andy, I said exactly this in my conversation with Bas as it would have made things much clearer to insert a sentence in the rules referring to a certification mark. The response was that this has taken place in the latest drafts of the new ISAF format rules which are presumably being tinkered with as we type.

A number of things have gone wrong to cause this situation, none of it deliberate, and I think to be honest we are just going to have to move on. It's not going to go away and while I'm convinced there are easier ways of doing this I doubt that the system is going to change.

10/07/2013 07:53:30
Chris M
sticky - I think kites may be a problem in the long term. Jim and Taxi were sewing them on for a while just in case, I don't know if they still are.

Mains and jibs seem fine.

10/07/2013 09:45:50
David
But when the committee or individuals fail we the voters may hold them to account. These days "feedback" is encouraged in most quarters and even "focus groups".

10/07/2013 09:50:38
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
I don't recall that the outrage bus stops in Tavistock, JC .... :-)

10/07/2013 09:55:15
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
Not seen a draft of the ISAF format Rules for a while but since these are still not published, we must resort to those rules published on the RYA web site. The Rule proposals that I have put forward to the AGM are based upon the current (non-ISAF) format as these are the only ones in play.

Putting stuff in a draft doesn't really help.

10/07/2013 20:14:16
Alex 3627
Getting back to sail measuring at Salcombe.... Have you decided when and where you want us yet Chris? :-) Do you want my mobile number?

10/07/2013 20:27:22
Chris M
if you're down Friday then that's probably the best time. late afternoon Saturday also good

10/07/2013 20:28:13
Chris M
at the club is probably best

11/07/2013 20:26:08
Chris M
Right we've been let down by the royal mail!!

Sails will still be measured tomorrow/Friday as planned. Stickers will be dealt out next week when they arrive at SYC. This has been agreed with the RYA. Again not ideal, but it's happened so we have to be pragmatic.

11/07/2013 20:28:08
Chris M
Oh, and so we are clear sails measured tonight/tomorrow/Saturday have been signed and dated. they may be used as is until the stickers come.

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