Carbon twin poles + boom

10/09/2010 18:39:02
Jonty Freeman
Hi Guys,

I am looking for twin carbon poles as I have now got a larger spinnaker on a vintage boat, but in order to use the spinnaker twin poles are needed and being a larger spinnaker the poles need to be longer than the original one. The spinnaker is the standard size that everyone uses. further more a carbon boom will be great as I also have a modern sail, the carbon boom will work better than the original boom as the original is equiped for the older styal sails where the sail slides into the boom.

cheers guys it would be great if you could keep a look out or if you know someone with either of them for sale.

best wishes

Jonty

13/09/2010 19:30:31
:-)
So carbon poles and rig plus modern sail plus new size kite on a vintage boat = handicap minus at least 80 at cvrda!

13/09/2010 21:14:15
Why not
You can make your own.....

Materials:
3m of 200g carbon twil
3m 400g uni directional carbon
5kg of ampreg 21 epoxy
some big candles for lost wax over the mould
miscellaneous other bits and pieces

Tooling:
3m drain pipe as a mould for the boom
3m steel curtain pole as a mould for spinnaker poles

Misc:
1 understanding wife who is ok with some laminating in the living room /dining room

Fairly pleased with mine.

14/09/2010 13:50:21
Jonty Freeman
Hi Guy's 
Thanks for your info, just a couple of questions about home made spinnaker poles and boom.

1: Where did you source your materials from?
2: What were the costs compared to buying one from P&B for example?
3: Finally how would you go about making them?

14/09/2010 19:56:24
Why not
Very briefly

1. Materials marineware in southampton, fittings (boom end etc) superspars in fareham
2. all three inc fittinng, finished, under £200. Ampreg 21 5Kg accounted for £70, you only need probably 1.5Kg. Its worth using though becuase it is very low viscosity which makes removing excess resin easier, and thus the end result is lighter.
3. Cover your mandrel in wax, lay up the carbon (a team of 3 works well), cure it, fair it, final coat of carbon, two coats of clear varnish, then fitout. Loads of info on the web, see Cherub class website in particular.

You wont save a massive amount, it will probably weigh more than pro built, but it is satisfying.

14/09/2010 19:56:26
Why not
Very briefly

1. Materials marineware in southampton, fittings (boom end etc) superspars in fareham
2. all three inc fittinng, finished, under £200. Ampreg 21 5Kg accounted for £70, you only need probably 1.5Kg. Its worth using though becuase it is very low viscosity which makes removing excess resin easier, and thus the end result is lighter.
3. Cover your mandrel in wax, lay up the carbon (a team of 3 works well), cure it, fair it, final coat of carbon, two coats of clear varnish, then fitout. Loads of info on the web, see Cherub class website in particular.

You wont save a massive amount, it will probably weigh more than pro built, but it is satisfying.

14/09/2010 20:29:53
Chris M
With due respect to the above, I can't think of a single good reason to make your own poles and boom if you are not 100% confident in your ability to make something as good or better than what you can buy off the shelf and have the correct tools and facilities to do it.

If you're paying retail prices for the materials you won't save all that much, and what you do save will be wiped out fourfold if they break and you end up buying the off the shelf spars anyway. If you lose a critical race or races due to this you'll be doubly peeved!!

Fair play to you if you've done it and they have survived, but it's worth remembering that these items - as carbon spars go - are relatively inexpensive to begin with.

14/09/2010 20:41:46
Richard Battey
Chris,

I think the point being made is that there are some people, including myself, that quite enjoy the challenge of self build. Each to their own!

I agree that pro build would seem to be the easy option but it does still make my eyes water every time I look at the price of a set of carbon poles £250! Carbon Boom £410 & mast £1k upwards and rising year on year! A lot of money for some people who don't have £2k to burn. So the idea of home build poles and boom does seem a little more appealing when you look at these numbers.

Anyway for now I will make do with my half alloy/carbon mast and beautifully varnished wooden boom. :-)

14/09/2010 21:13:32
Chris M
The boom is about £300 (Probably unrigged) and I think the poles are just over £100 a piece. I know that the Selden ones are £250 each, but I don't think these are what are supplied by Winders. 

To buy the tube itself for the poles is £130 for 2.5 metres from carbonology, who i've never thought to be overly cheap. The difficult bit is finding someone to supply lengths over 2 metres, my local composites firm (Polyfibre) wouldn't do this a number of years ago when i looked into doing this, and it was less hassle to just order two complete poles. These companies may now be more flexible.

For the amateur it is far more practical to buy the bare tubes and do the rigging yourself, especially if you have a ready store of half decent fittings and rope. However again, if you're paying retail prices for new fittings you won't save anything in reality and a "warm glow" is your only reward!

14/09/2010 22:46:03
alanf
Just to share my analysis that I did for Jonty to the broader forum, before the 'make your own pole' option was bought up


The fittings I stock would take up 40mm so 2260mm worth of pole

Most use 32mm O/D tube (1 ¼ inch), you can do 25mm (1 inch) if you like as there are no restrictions

For 32mm tube, for twin poles, you need
2 x piston ends
2 x diameter reducer ends
1 pack of 2 bushed push fit deck eyes
2 x 20mm blocks
2 x pull grips
4 x deck eyes
8 rivets or screws

Approx £65 plus P&P,

Fully assembled poles cost approx £280 per pair, so you would need to source your tube at (2 x 2.5 meter lengths) at less than £44 / metre.

( Retail price of superspar tube is £44.80/metre so there is very little saving in assembling yourself unless you can get or make tube cheaper)

14/09/2010 22:56:18
alanf
p.s. Richard, I see you picked up the ex-warren mast. I wondered if it was still lying in the grass at Shoreham!

15/09/2010 08:50:08
Jonty Freeman
I chris,
You have said in your comment that you can get a pole for £100 a piece? Is this just the pole or is this a complete pole with fittings? Just wondering because I have not yet found a pole less that £250 each, but £100 sounds much more promising

Cheers

15/09/2010 10:57:36
Douglas
There are of course firms which make the pole sections only, leaving the buyer to add the fittings eg. Harrison Rods

http://www.harrisonrods.co.uk/industrial%20composite%20tubes.htm
15/09/2010 10:58:22
Paul 3371
Anyone know if you can use a broken section of a carbon mast to make a boom? Is a boom of a greater diameter than a mast? If it could be utilised can you advise any pitfalls. thanks

15/09/2010 12:17:59
RH
It has been done, in fact there is recently renovated vintage boat at Tammy with a new (ex-mast) carbon boom.

15/09/2010 12:49:36
Why not
I suspect carbon mast section may be a bit bendy.

I think the big saving is to be made on the boom. Its also alot easier to fabricate than the poles becuase theres more carbon to grab hold of during layup. It does take a couple of sessions to laminate though, otherwise it all starts to go a bit squishy. My boom is not perfectly staright, I refer to it as slight prebend where the kicker attaches.

15/09/2010 20:56:40
alanf
There's an idea, I have been wondering what to do with that broken 49er mast in my garden. I think I'll size the top section up as boom material, see how bendy it is?

11/12/2013 19:29:13
Gareth Griffiths
Great to read about people building their own gear not just buying off the shelf gear at ridiculous prices.

Just about to build the mould for the boom for "The Dream Machine", Niane design 3450.

Design is more Big Boat style narrow rather than skiff circular style. A box section will stop it bending like tubular booms do.

07/01/2014 22:30:31
Martin Huntwr
Hi there is nothing to be gained by having carbon twin poles on an old vintage boat, that is assuming that you are going to sail inland, unless your boat is down to weight,you have a carbon mast and you already have newish sails less than 4 years old and that you hope to compete at the top in the river series,  currently the majority of the vintage boats have a single carbon or ali new rules pole, and you will find there are a few single carbon or ali poles at a great price used of course, but the main thing is team work and that your crew is great getting the pole out, with the odd gybe,if not lots of practise, good luck but if you decide to go this root there will be a lot less string and it will be a lot cheaper to rig, hope this helps M

08/01/2014 09:56:54
Gareth Griffiths
Carbon poles save weight pulling sown on your spinnaker so yes they would definitely be beneficial

08/01/2014 11:43:11
Andrew M
The other big advantage of carbon on booms and poles is that it hurts much less when it smacks you on the head.  Carbon poles are much easier to handle, wouldn't go back.

08/01/2014 12:03:44
Rod & Jo
Jo had an even better reason for changing from Al to carbon, they're warmer on the hands!

08/01/2014 12:17:32
Alistair
'Carbon poles save weight pulling sown on your spinnaker so yes they would definitely be beneficial'…only relevant if you went down the somewhat radical route of not having pole uphauls to regulate their height!

08/01/2014 14:23:33
Peter Mason 847
Firstly, this company will sell short lengths of carbon fibre tube:
http://www.carbonology.com/carbon-fibre-tubes-c-64.html
Secondly, RH's comment on a Merlin at Tamesis is probably referring to mine. The boom is indeed a salvaged Proctor mast and it works fine. It is fitted up with a split transom sheet and so has virtually no bending moment in it.

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