Can anyone offer a comparison of the Ian Proctor 9b design and a Jack Holt Martine?

04/07/2013 10:48:28
Chris.
Can anyone offer a comparison of the Ian Proctor 9b design and a Jack Holt Martine?
Guys:

Can anyone offer a comparison of a 9b and the Jack Holt Martine design? I ask because I will mainly (almost exclusively) be sailing on the river and I had heard that a 9b can be known to stick in light wind of which we tend to get many days…is that a fair summary? Can the 9b be prevented from sticking be healing to leeward? Is a Martine significantly better and worth searching for?.....or did the 9b supersede the Martin and others?

Many thanks,

Chris

04/07/2013 11:13:35
Mr X
If you are sailing on the river and expecting light winds then the Martine is the faster option. Martin Hunter sails a Martine at UTSC very successfully and around the De May circuit. 

The 9b is a good all round boat and was very successful, being the last of the successful narrow shapes from the Proctor stable. Another boat that you might consider is an Xpectant or a Mark XVI. I am sure that Robert Harris or David Child may have other suggestions but a Mark XII will tick a lot of boxes on the river too.

04/07/2013 11:36:21
Jez3719
The Martine does seem to be a good shape and carries weight well. I would say it is one of the top 3 narrow boats along with the Passing Cloud Adur 6/7's for river sailing. I have a Martine sitting in my garage awaiting restoration, although when I will find the time is another matter, but they are hard to come by.

04/07/2013 11:51:21
Martin Hunter
Hi,there is no comparison between a Martine (Jack Holt design) with a mark 9 or 9B (Ian Proctor design), over the years the fast designs for the thames have been.
Passing Cloud, and the variations of Jack Holt designs , when Jack built them there were no drawings, just a slight change in the mould for the individual customer,
mark 9, 9B and I think 9C along with Mark12, 11, 16 all have there great moments, but all very good all round boats, what is far more critical is the crew weight, and where do you learn how to get the best from these designs, there are only 4 venues on the thames where you can vary the rake mast bend and rig tension, and see exactly the differences it can make to performance.
But not only do you have to choose a good venue to set the boat up, you need another boat(s) crew, who understand the older designs and the pros and cons for every condition, and if you dont travel, then you will never learn, i look forward to seeing you at the next DeMay event or river series

04/07/2013 12:02:22
Chris.
Martin: 

Can you confirm, when you say “there is no comparison”, do you mean that the Martine is much, much better, or that a comparison is not possible? I take your point regarding getting out on the road.

Many thanks,

Chris

04/07/2013 12:05:46
Mr X
Martin, Which are the 4 river venues in question? I get Cookham, Ranelagh and Upper Tahmes but am struggling with the 4th

04/07/2013 12:07:50
Martin Hunter
I am surprised, Hampton

04/07/2013 12:14:00
Chris.
Guys, How could you forget Minima, Thames and Tamesis!....."all have their great moments".

04/07/2013 12:18:30
Martin Hunter
I dont believe the Martine is the best, but what it does allow, is some of the big crews to compete, currently in Quiver we are carrying around 25-26 stone, but if you take Laurie Smart they are a few stone less, and last weekend after beating Cookham narrowly in the interclub race, there was only a boat lenght difference in a passing cloud and a martine, in good sailing conditions with a proper beat and a run,with the lead changing 5-6 times, and i sure the same would have been at Hampton, and Cookham

04/07/2013 12:28:50
Chris.
Martin: 

So I currently have a 9b that I am working to improve the setup of….and it seems to go pretty great, super simple to sail….head starting to get out of the boat (for 3 second intervals) ….but I have experienced that slight slowness relative say to a Mk12 when the wind drops to ~3->5kts…and so my question is, am I barking up the wrong tree and should I get an out and out river boat, like a holt Martine (narrower waterline?) that can maybe just keep going that little bit longer when it gets light? Would you be slower in a 9 if/when it went light?...

Cheers again,

04/07/2013 15:45:43
Chris
Can anyone else give an insight into their experience with these boats? Are the holt boats that much better for the river? 

Many thanks,

Chris

04/07/2013 15:58:58
Mr X
Chris, I think that the Jack Holt boats have a proven record on the river and in my humble opinion represent a much quicker boat than a 9b or general Proctor designs on the river. (however, the Mark XII is quite close). Results in the De May and Thames Series will bear this out.

Martin hit the nail on the head when discussing rigs.The sails need to be good and the rig rakeable-probably carbon mast, boom and poles are advisable too

04/07/2013 16:05:10
Jez3719
Speaking of rigs Martin???

04/07/2013 16:30:25
Chris
Thank you very much for the input Mr X and Martin. From what I can see the MK12s at Thames certainly seem to go very well in 3-7kt range i.e. when the wind is just starting to get moving. Once you go above that and the little gusts start to occur the 9b seems happier and gets its act together very nicely. In the lightest stuff the 9b feels vulnerable and in every race on the river there is a section like that it seems. It could very well, as Martin suggested, also be about my current lack of mast tuning (obviously I am trying). Looking at a Mk12 they do just seem to sit with very little in the water.

04/07/2013 17:07:53
Martin Hunter
HI Jez, back in touch soon, Chris how much do you want for the 9b, shame you didnt respond to my email

05/07/2013 08:53:51
Richard P
I don't think it makes much difference, it's all to do with who's on the helm.  Reading the zephyrs on the river is the art that needs to be understood, something that I'm still trying to get my head around.  When guys like Martin and Laurie have been sailing the river for 40 years, it's hard to keep up with them at the best of times.  Having a tall rig is certainly beneficial though.

05/07/2013 11:55:40
Mr X
Rigs for River Boats:
Carbon Boom – Very good, stops a lot of damage to head and boat and less weight.
Carbon Mast – Good Helpful but not essential.
Tall Rigs – Possible slight advantage in the light stuff.
Raking Rig on River – Don’t waste your time or money.
Lots of time sailing the boats = Brilliant.

05/07/2013 12:00:53
Chris
Richard: 

Thank you for the contribution. I am sure you are right regarding reading the environment, the zephyrs and also about the huge amount of experience that people like Martin and Laurie bring to their racing. It really isn’t something that you can find in the books. It would certainly be interesting to sail a passing cloud and see if I could feel the difference from other boats. The search for the all conquering boat continues….

Chris

05/07/2013 12:10:19
Richard 1074 and 3443
Perhaps the reason why it is a development class, and not strict one design.  I wonder if the now standard wide boats with flat stern sections would have become the norm if the championships were not always held on sea venues and on courses that are triangle sausages.  Presumably why the silver tiller events were started.

05/07/2013 13:52:26
David Child
NO. 
That is not why the Silver Tiller was presented in 1950 by Duncan Ferguson. It was as a "Victor Ludorum" of the class to find the best all round sailors. The stipulation in the early days that the helmsman must be the owner of the boat did much to foster ownership and the differing venues sailed from February to October did much to spread the class. It was the model for many other travellers trophies in other classes though whether any help to boost club racing is open to debate so many boats living at home on trailers.

As to the boat having raced against Passing Cloud (With a tall rig.) and her sister ship Flinkidink (she had a medium height rig in those days!) in the mid to late 60's I was of the opinion that the reason they did so well was that were very well saied. Both my Beat Nik a Surf Scoter and Flower Child a Supersticion won well inland and at sea in light to heavy airs. Sadly no Surf Scoters survive.

05/07/2013 15:25:10
David Child
As an addendum I am reminded or at least told! The Silver Tiller was presented before the amalgamation of the Merlin and Rocket Classes maybe in anticipation.

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