Adverts on sails and boats

28/03/2012 11:20:45
John D
Just watched the vidio from Hamble there seems to be several large logo's on sails !  Saw this at Blithfield a couple of weeks ago also on the decks of one boat, have the class rules been relaxed on this ? as I have not seen anything about it. I know in the past people have been told to remove these. Thoughts ?

28/03/2012 15:10:13
Mark Barnes
Afternoon John

There has been a thread on this before. Category A and C no longer exist and a racing dinghy can advertise what it wants (as long as not deflamitary or abusive) as long as it conforms to the ISAF/RYA requirements. It is up to the individual association to opt to not to allow any advertising. As I understand, the class is now at the point where it needs to have a vote to bring about this change. Graham will be better informed than I and may be able to update you on this matter.

Bye for now


28/03/2012 15:16:42
Alex 3556
At the weekend at Chichester, GGGGG did bring this up and made an announcement after the prize giving that anyone with advertising remaining on their boat need to remove it all as it is against the class rules....  So people that were at Chichester at least have been warned....

28/03/2012 20:40:32
Andy Hay - Business as Usual
There was a vote at the AGM (three years ago or was it four?) which meant that sponsorship on boats, etc. was not allowed under the Class Rules. My understanding would thus be that a boat competing in an event as a Merlin Rocket but with advertising (not designated by the event organisers or MROA under the notice of race) on the boat would in fact be out of class. Smacks of the whole Aeroweb saga again .... 

The last draft of the ISAF format rules that I saw states the same thing but I do recall that there is some get out somewhere, no doubt someone will put me right.

28/03/2012 22:04:27
Where is it in the Class Rules then?
I can not find any reference to it.
28/03/2012 22:34:03
Mark Nicholson
In the 14 class a few years ago, the association decided to ask for an extra contribution from competitors with private sponsors (beyond the normal class assoc membership). The thought was that if the individual was benefiting, the class as whole should benefit.  Worth a thought or a bit too HMRC!?

28/03/2012 22:55:39
John Cooper
This issue was raised before the 2009 champs at Whitstable as they were just after the removal of Cat A etc from the RRS.  Advice was taken from the RYA and the following paragraph was written into the SIs:
"Advertising on the boat chosen by the owner or person in charge is prohibited".
That did the job.

29/03/2012 08:50:33
Jim C
I think that 20.5.3 in the ISAF advertising code *may* apply to you folks, but if that's the case it expires at the end of this year.[12007].pdf

In practical terms, like it or not, hasn't that horse long bolted?

29/03/2012 09:00:48
Measurement Man

Meant to post after CYC at the weekend to remind everyone that sail stickers from the champs last year need to be removed. I can take the ironic jokes about me having put them there is the first place!

Bottom line is, stickers verboten unless approved by the RYA by way of event sponsorship...


29/03/2012 12:17:43
What Merlin Rccket Class rule prohibits advertising on the boat or sails?

29/03/2012 12:33:13
Out of interest is there a rule that limits the sail makers logo size? Only at Blithfield I noticed that Dave Winder had a P&B sticker on his sail and given that they made it does that still make it ilegal?

29/03/2012 12:37:19
Andy Hay - 3626 Business as Usual
Sailmakers emblems are (or at least were) limited to 150mm square in absolute dimensions.

The point about the MROA Rules is that the are specifically NOT there. I understand that the advertising code has to be added to the class rules, otherwise the default is "no". GGGGG / Dan will I am sure correct me.

Shows how often I sail, forgot completely about the Allen stickers from the Champs. Better pull them off before Sunday.

29/03/2012 12:38:09
WP .
You're right it's not mentioned in the rules as per your link......which i believe is now the official copy ?

29/03/2012 12:39:37
I'm no expert on this topic but some quick internet research tells me that ISAF Regulation 20 states that the right to advertise requires "prior authorization of the relevant National Authority".  Therefore since the class hasn't given this authorization it means you can't advertise on the boats when racing.  I assume that means it doesn't need to be in the class rules, unless advertising is permitted?[12007].pdf
29/03/2012 13:37:53
John D
I seem to have opened a can of worms here with my post, it was the huge p&b stickers that i meant, I have checked and sailmakers logo's are 150mm square max, Its not just Dave Winders boat but several others so do p&b know something we don't or are they just trying it on !!

04/04/2012 20:15:38
steve ward
I know that it may have been large sailmakers stickers that prompted the thread but if as an association the merlin fleet are not going to allow advertising should we therefore not remove any boat names from results lists that are also blatant advertising ?



04/04/2012 21:11:13
Chris M
One can of worms at a time steve..........

05/04/2012 09:07:43
Ever elpful
Surely not a can of worms but a matter of compliance with well defined rules?

05/04/2012 10:31:07
I personally have no issue with people naming their boats after the sponsor, so long as that is it's registered name. The issue comes when they display the name on the boat as I am not sure there are any rules for this?

I think there has to be some leaway in all this as you when you look at the people supporting the class and who is actually buying the new boats you don't want to stop them having anykind of promotion by taking part.

David Hayes
Tom Stewart
Dave Winder
Simon Potts
Dave Wade
Andy Davis

Amongst others and I think they have been pretty good and restrained with what they could have got away with.

05/04/2012 10:46:13
I just wonder who they are advertising to? The merlin class at the top end is quite a narrowly defined field and I'm sure all the players will know who's who and what they're running in the arms race. If they are aiming at the rest of the class, I would have thought that the sponsorship/who's using what info will filter down via the mag (v.excellent) and the website (also v.excellent), plus word of mouth. This would be presumably to advertise to the 'lower order' club and circuit racers buying new gear. It's not as though they are on the telly or national press; I never see adverts on boats!
Note to sponsors; buy more ads for the merlin mag and website; these are viewed by ALL the class!!!

05/04/2012 11:22:10
old fart
ISAF regulation 20 refers to "National Authority"  ( which is the RYA not the MROA - so the latter does not have a choice
Notices of Race also often require compliance with ISAF reg 20 so any competitor not complying with it could be the subject of a protest from the Race Committee or a fellow competitor

05/04/2012 12:06:48
Ever elpful
You cannot repeal the law of gravity can you the rules are the rules play the game and do not let the side down with another issue in public.

05/04/2012 12:26:59
What have the boat names got to do with it? I googled the top 10 from the 2011 nationals without a single reference to a marine industry product being returned. The most commercial hit I got was for a bespoke maker of children's wooden furniture, this all so brought back a reference to a child's day care nursery.

05/04/2012 12:54:44
I though the comment about boat names referred to the advertising associated with the event rather than the name being linked to a product or service. Clearly it would be self destructive to deny the sponsors of a race or event to use the results list to advertise. The next illogical step would be to accuse my crew and I of being pyromaniacs.  it must be a very slow day at work for a lot of us!

05/04/2012 14:43:21
Surely the question is when is the class going to sort its own rules out.  The transitional ISAF which the mroa is hiding behind ends on 31 December 2012.  If nothing is done before this date then my understanding is that advertising will become deemed to be ok.

05/04/2012 14:46:35
Impartial Observer
I think Steve's comment refers to "Team Gill". This is the name Nick Craig has signed his boat in as. Merely signing in as he does in other classes. He is entirely amateur but probably gets some free sailing kit or some help with entry fees. I am absolutely sure his sailing costs are considerably more than this relationship provides. Nick is a reasonable bloke and one that is relatively new to the class who should be welcomed. I am sure he would not be intentionally breaking the rules and if told this is not the done thing in Merlins would happily comply without the need for forum bashing. He probably hasn't got around to reading every nuance of the merlin rules. However, one has to wonder why one would want to exclude those people receiving the help of businesses like Gill to compete on the circuit. It seems pretty harmless to me. There will always be some people with bigger budgets than others mostly due to wealth rather than low key sponsorship and free sailing kit.

05/04/2012 20:28:25
The question of sponsorship with name on boats etc is more than just an owner of a company naming the boat, and getting no real advertising as a class we do not get TV coverage and yes we know most of them by name anyway.  But they are very good tax implications, a company can name a boat after itself, then when competing on the circuit, travel expenses, entries and accommodation  can be offset against tax boat repairs can also be offset. This can make doing the circuit quite beneficial to some while others are struggling to meet the costs.  The issue is a lot deeper and has more cost implications other than just names on sails.

06/04/2012 17:48:16
I tried that one, but the taxman said,NO.


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