Duplication of Boat Names

17/12/2008 17:24:59
Tony Lane
Congratulations on yet another great entry list for Salcombe 09.
On looking at the list I notice it includes a boat no. 3641 'Magic Dragon'.
There is already a boat called 'Magic Dragon' number 1693. I think she won the Founders Cup at the Champs in 1964. Has the old boat had her name changed or been destroyed?
I am sorry if this causes a problem for an unsuspecting owner but Class rule 20 says 'No duplication of names is permitted'.

17/12/2008 18:01:29
puff
You better reinstate the Puff....

17/12/2008 18:43:59
Ancient Geek
No need for false modesty Tony you did win as you say, despite the light weather a good Championship Week I won my first Championship Race (West Country Trophy and so did Pat Blake (Silent World Trophy.)

17/12/2008 23:41:22
Pat Blake
Yes it was very good year......

18/12/2008 09:04:04
Grumpy old Santa
Even nostalgia isn't what it used to be!

18/12/2008 10:12:50
Ancient Geek
It was the 60's and if you remember it you weren't there!

18/12/2008 12:23:50
Barry Dunning
Those are the only years I can remember with clarity!! Its last weekend that I cant recall.

18/12/2008 15:10:36
I name this ship....
Aquarius as a name was given to 1526,451 and 1234. Oberon given to 127 and to 3026. Pandora to 415 and 543. Second Wind 708 and 2248.  Starlight 523 and 3253.   Are Boo-Boo (1444), Bye Bye (2761), Bu Bu (1188),Can Can (550),Chi Chi (1865), She -She (1478) Si Si (1500), Ya Ya (1617)  allowed (same name twice on the same boat!!)??  There are lots of names the same but suffixed with I, II, or III

18/12/2008 15:28:41
Steve Tyler
It was I who named 3641 "Puff the Magic Dragon" of which I believe there are no others.  I named it such despite being warned that my northern friends (yes, you Julian and Rich) were going to pronounce it Poof.  Perhaps Mark has abbreviated as he doesn't want the years of mickey taking...

18/12/2008 18:37:10
Nick S
Like that would stop anything!!!

18/12/2008 19:01:11
. 2
what a silly rule...

18/12/2008 19:45:04
Ancient Geek
Yes it is a silly rule,always was, but the authorities still seem really keen on it. I supose its one way they can try to exert more control!

18/12/2008 22:28:19
Alan F
The rule is an MROA rule (rule 20). I have sampled other 'national classes' rules as per the RYA web site, and none have sucg a prescriptice rule. So the authority you refer to is the association you belong to ( I presume) an are a voting member of.

You could table a motion to change th erule if you think it silly.

18/12/2008 22:29:28
Alan F
typo's excepted

18/12/2008 22:57:42
Ancient Geek
I would bow to Alan’s scholarship in terms of class rules, it has however certainly (- if not a class rule –uniquely in the Merlin Rocket Class-Nationally-) been a convention applied by the Certificate Issuing authorities of many countries that no duplication of names is permitted indeed in some classes where there is a obvious and “good” name there has been almost a queue and if the name should fall out of use an unseemly rush to register that name.
I recall a statement by an official of the RYA in the 60’s that registered yachts had this much in common with race horses!
The Registrar of Shipping certainly and doubtless the Small Boat Registrar will not allow duplicate names.
These days with sail numbers being used and boat names not so much, and a more liberal and tolerant attitude to risqué names, and the helmsman being credited rather than the owner in most cases it is hard to see the logic to not allowing the same name.
It is however how we can all demonstrate our individuality, whatever the class or country.

18/12/2008 23:30:01
Martin
Sorry got to to submit my thoughts, although I am only 40 something I am something of a traditionalist in this respect.
Names can be re used, but not duplicated.
It's how we get herritage and a sense of history, also its the source of those all important yarns to spin in the bar after the event.
Or did I spend too long in the Grey Funnel Line?

19/12/2008 00:44:57
john c
i have never seen a merlin without a name, and rarely seen an rs or laser something or other with one!

19/12/2008 09:06:16
Alan F
Searching the RYA web site, I can confirm it is a class rule issue, not RYA or ISAF.

Personally, I like the MR rule, but that is just my opinion.

"The RYA offer a certification service for dinghy and keelboat registration.
First Certification
In order to issue a measurement certificate to a boat, the RYA will require a fully completed measurement form together with a building fee receipt/sail number allocation, and a plaque number (if applicable - some classes do not require this - check the class rules) and the appropriate certification fee (detailed below). The RYA will also require details of the owner's name, address and the club that they sail at, and, if appropriate, the name of the boat. Some classes operate a "unique boat name" and therefore a choice of three names will be required. Upon receipt of all the documentation and fee and, provided that all is in order, a measurement certificate will be issued. This measurement certificate will be valid provided no alterations are made to it. If the boat is sold, a new measurement certificate will be required (see Certification). If any of the details regarding the boat change, for example, the boat is reweighed and a different weight is recorded, then a new measurement certificate will be required."

http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/measurers/Pages/measurementcertificates.aspx
19/12/2008 09:11:47
Ancient Geek
As I said a convention not a rule. 
The MR class is not alone in that rule.
Would your really want the same name as another boat?
A matter for either the rules or personal choice I am leaning towards personal choice rather than compulsion I like Martins suscsinct description.

19/12/2008 09:25:02
I name this ship....
I think that the Lasers are worried about breaking away from the herd and becoming individuals.  They mostly seem to be white too.  With identical equipment and devoid of personality unlike the Merlins, where every boat has its quirks all the way down the years.  I wonder will I be alive when the Lasers have a vintage wing!!!!!

19/12/2008 11:12:14
Alan F
Each to their own. Sailing boats are sailing boats. Different classes satisfy different requirements. Most dinghy racers care about the racing first. 
My single hander happens to be a Laser, because at the time the club I was at, that was the bigger fleet of single handers.
If I were to change today, I might pick a solo.
If I were at Bourne End, I might pick an OK.

(By the way, they are mainly Dove Grey.)

19/12/2008 12:42:08
..
Alan F---- you would be welcome in the Solo fleet, where many other MR helms reside.

19/12/2008 13:15:52
Jez3550
Just sold my OK :(

19/12/2008 13:32:09
DavidC
I rather like the tradition of the rule and it is a shame it has slipped in some cases. Most National Classes and others had a similar rule at one time but it would seem we are one of the few that retain it.  It was part of the traditions of the sport.

However it is an MR rule. if we don't want it then propose a rule change for the next AGM. It will either go through or it won't
D

19/12/2008 13:33:12
Brian
The lasers at Tamesis have many different names and colours:
Colours: White, Grey, Yellow, Blue, Red, Blue/White, Pink/White and Brown
Names: Egg Flip, Greylag, Not Yellow, Phew!, Atomic, Shooglenifty, Grey Dove,

Obviously influenced by the dominating Merlin fleet!

http://www.tamesisclub.co.uk/Laser.htm
19/12/2008 19:20:49
Pat2121
I think the Classic and Vintage Laser fleet's breeding in my garden with a yellow with cream deck about number 85000 and an orange with fawn deck (a bit older)and an ex-navy grey number 22150. The real big cost is gelcoat colours to match - I can paint a Merlin cheaper! And no, I don't like ironing boards but others do. They just don't suit names unlike Merlins which are individual characters.

19/12/2008 22:20:19
CJ
The Laser2000 fleet tries to encourage people to name their boats - in order to add a bit of individuality.

The fun bit is that if we find boat without a name, then the rest of the class devises a "suitable" name for the owner / helm / crew / club / latest incident etc.

19/12/2008 23:45:57
One for the Record
I can confirm that boat number 1693 is named "Magic Dragon",boat number 3641 is named "Puff the Magic Dragon" and that no duplication of boat names is allowed by the class rules.Feel free to contact me when naming or renaming a boat and this situation can be avoided.Louisa.

20/12/2008 14:08:34
.
You can always just add a number to the name.

20/12/2008 14:18:46
.2
You can, but somehow it doesn't feel within the spirit of the rule...

20/12/2008 14:24:18
Ancient Geek
If you like the name and want to keep it without depriving the previous boat of its given name it's a way round though, lots of precedents within Yachting and the Merchant Fleets. - Restless, Morning Cloud, Queen Elizabeth spring to mind.

22/12/2008 09:48:14
john c
only one titanic though!

22/12/2008 11:52:19
.
Ditto Bismark!

23/12/2008 09:53:16
Mags
So - your challenge is to remember the boat name that was re-used the most (without consulting the yearbook!). Did any name make it to 4 or more incarnations?

23/12/2008 10:22:54
John Murrell
Just to keep everyone happy I have re-instated the Puff..................

http://www.salcombeyc.org.uk/content/racing-results/%5Emerlin-rocket%5EMerlin_Rocket_Week_2009/

And now 96 boats for Salcombe Week!

23/12/2008 10:23:31
John Murrell
Sorry got the link wrong (again!!!)

http://www.salcombeyc.org.uk/content/racing-results/%5Emerlin-rocket%5EMerlin_Rocket_Week_2009/
23/12/2008 10:56:48
former whitstable pro
restlessIV ??

23/12/2008 12:46:50
.
Restless 1-VII then B!

23/12/2008 15:50:23
Committee Member SW
The issue of duplicate boat names is being looked at by the Committee as the item appears on the forum.  As usual, it is not as simple as it might appear.
1) RYA administration service of boat name checking is a addes service not a Certification requirement
2) MROA rule, so if you are not a member of MROA there is no enforcement possible.

Committee preference is to have unique names. Cos its fun.

Steve Watson

23/12/2008 16:36:32
.
So what rules do the RYA apply when issuing a certificate or do they make them up on the day?

23/12/2008 22:16:09
DavidC
The requirement for names is a class rule. No20. This instructs the owner to supply 3 names. For a boat to be issued with a certificate it must comply with all the class rules - Rule 1(b) and no boat may race unless it has a valid certificate and the owner is a member of the Association. Therefore a check on boat names should be done as part of certification and the measurement form asks for a boat name.

The RYA has changes of staff with regard to certificate issue and they may not fully appreciate this class rule and it indeed may not have been checked as accurately as it should. Many MR certificates are still in the old files and there may not be an easy access to a full list of boat names to check. The class could work with the RYA on this and ask that it is done as a matter of course. It would be a simple task if the current index of names was available to the RYA easily on the computer.

However, as RRS 78.1, Class rule 1 and the declaration on the measurement form (and certificate) says It is the owners responsibility and requirement to maintain the boat within the class rules. Obviously if a boat is outside of the class and not racing there is no jurisdiction over it.

I would support keeping the rule as I think it is a good tradition and has style. If we are going to keep it then perhaps a little more publicity of the rule and contact with the RYA,
D

24/12/2008 00:13:51
.
Ah yes that magic word communication!

28/12/2008 16:47:13
Garry R
David CWhen you say "the old files" does that mean there are some paper records which have not been transferred to computer files?  I wanted to get a copy of a certificate for 252 built by Wyche and Coppock and was told that there were no records.  This makes getting a certificate very difficult as we in Aberdeen live a long way from any measurer.  She will weigh a ton, won't win anything yet is ineligible for events without a cert!!  I feel sure that there must be a record somewhere.

28/12/2008 17:48:40
.
Even if only in the old year books!

28/12/2008 20:35:56
Tony Lane
Garry. I have a copy of the 1951 Year Book that records the owners in that year of 252 'Gannet' as D T Sharp and J Chambers of Banbury SC. I regret my records do not help to find where she went from there but I do remember Mr Sharp from my early days at Banbury c. 1960.

29/12/2008 14:54:38
DavidC
Hi Gary,

Yes, the original RYA system was a paper system in a lot of filing boxes with an envelope for each boat. You can imagine that with all the classes there were quite a lot of drawers. I don't think that the whole data base was ever fully transferred to computer and certainly boats have dropped off the system. I suspect that it was mainly the later boats and certificate renewals which are on the current system. I tried to get a new certificate for 2262 and we had to go to the drawers to locate a very old and very faded copy of her original certificate. She is no on the system because there is a certificate in my name.

I suggest you contact Bas Edmonds in the technical department and ask him if he could check the original papers to see if 252 is in there. I suspect that over the years not everyone who has been employed to issue certificates has fully understood the old paperwork. I have to speak to him on other class matters in the New Year so will also try to remember to ask him.

Cheers
D

29/12/2008 19:39:47
Garry R
I did feel that I got a stock reply when I phoned RYA - "Sorry it's not on the computer" and that was it.  I now have  a name and will follow it up.  Thanks for that.

29/12/2008 20:02:19
Pat2121
I didn't have any problem with 2121 - the certificate came back almost by return of post yet she hadn't been certificated for many years.

29/12/2008 23:04:18
Ancient Geek
Gog bless them the response to a query from the RYA depends on the day and who's there and if like DavidC you have clout, just like going to the local post office! Not all persons are equal or mindful to be helpful on a given day.

30/12/2008 14:55:37
David
Gary,

if this helps at all....... I walk down past the entrance to the hallowed portals of the Youth and Olympic racing movement (sorry, I meant the RYA) most days when giving the hairy hell hound his daily walk. I can always pop in and see what they have there, as it is much harder to just say 'no' when you have the punter stood large in front of you.

Would be glad to assist

D

30/12/2008 15:40:42
Garry R
David that would be great - Aberdeen is too far away to pop in and you have the info - Gannet, built 1951 hull number 252 carved into the thwart, Rocket design built by Wyche and Coppock.

30/12/2008 16:19:33
Tony Lane
I think 252 Gannet may have been built in 1949 or 1950 with 251 Rockaby, 254 Blithe Spirit, 255 Suncap and 256 Zero. They were all built by Wyche and Coppock for members of Banbury SC.

30/12/2008 19:13:30
Nick Price (214)
Garry,
214, Diabolo is shown as being built on Jan 1st 1950. Don't know if that helps.

05/07/2016 09:17:48
Nigel Wilyman
I have just found a post from 2008 mentioning Merlin Rocket 'Magic Dragon' 1693 regarding the duplication of names.  'Magic Dragon' is alive and well and currently for sale!!  Can anyone help me with any more information about my boat.

07/07/2016 11:03:59
Tony Lane
1693 Magic Dragon was built by R.E. Hoare at Christchurch in 1963 and finished by Anthony Evans of the Bristol Corinthian YC, her first owner.
Magic Dragon won the Founders Cup at the 1964 National Championships at Parkstone YC.
Her second owner was P F Phillips also at Bristol Corinthian YC. From there she went to W Davison at Oxford SC.

07/07/2016 19:53:01
Pat Blake
What Tony Lane didn't mention in his post was that HE sailed with Anthony Evans in Magic Dragon and THEY won the Founders Cup. They were one of the top teams then.
 
Characteristically modest Tony!
 
It would be very nice to see you at Bourne End on September 10th for the 70th Anniversary 'bash'. But I know it is a long way from Falmouth - I hope you can make it.
 
Pat 

11/07/2016 15:58:13
Robert Harris
Reading the 2015 Year Book (can't find 2016) I see that 'Magic Dragon' no. 1693 is still listed in the Register of Boats and the Index of Boat Names. Perhaps Tony knows if she still exists, if she definitely does not then there should be no problem.
 
I remember Tony and Anthony winning the Founders Cup at Poole.
 
If I had ever won a Championship race I'd remember it to the end of my days. I crewed my brother John when we won a race for one of the trophies but no points in the disasterous 1965 Championship at Plymouth but I don't think that counts!
 


13/07/2016 16:36:21
Luna Rossa
So can you have
 
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch IV
 
then ?

15/07/2016 11:19:28
Tony Lane
I am sorry but I don't know if 1693 'Magic Dragon' still exists. I also can't find my 2016 year book. 
I regret I will not be able to attend the 70th Anniversary at Bourne End in September. I am sure it will be a great party. 

18/07/2016 10:26:38
Peter Male
Tony  -  can you explain why was it called Magic Dragon?

19/07/2016 16:52:56
Tony Lane
Anthony Evans named 1693 'Magic Dragon' after a popular tune of the time Puff the Magic Dragon. 
I regret neither of us know where it is today. 

20/07/2016 14:43:54
rock
 
Magic Dragon (1693) is in my garden, looking for a new owner!!  I have stored her in my garage for about 10 years.  I bought her from a member of Bristol Corinthians, Gordon May.  I am pleased to have found out so much about her history since my original post on this site. Nigel Wilyman, Clevedon

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