It's clear from the new boat thread, well done Barnsie, that there is a crossroads here due to the stagnation of the class, hulls in the far east, RS building merlins..what's it all coming to? wrong wrong wrong way to go chaps. |
Interesting that innovator is a little shy, I think that ideas like this diluted as 'wind-ups' when annonymous. |
As a heavy helm I experimented over the years with a couple of wing mast projects (failed!) and asked Phil Morrision to design the 'Thin Ice' for me as a weight carrier - a bit of a fianacial gamble with a wooden boat! But a good gamble and we had fun and some success. Moving to a Turner Tales and sailing around 26 stone we had fair amount of success as long as there was a hiking breeze + or it was very light. However in marginal planing or stop stop sailing conditions boy did we struggle. With the passage of time and the development of rigs the lighter weights were able to compete with us to windward further up the wind scale and then downwind ..... goodbyeee! The simple truth is that a heavy crew weight is not front of the fleet competitive across the range. |
As one of the heavy brigade, 119Kg, and sailed at salcombe, with 30 stone in the boat, there are ways of being more competive, I know that the top 10 is a dream, but saying that having two early teens races in marginal planning at salcome this year I must be doing something right. |
how about just opening up the mainsail rule so its the same area allowed now (actual area not measured) but any shape? |
I've got agree as another heavy helm who started helming merlins aged 18 with a good friend and were grossly underpowered in an NSM 2 derrivative at 21 stone. I now at 14-15 stone have difficulty finding a light enough crew to remain competive. |
It must be the obesity thing we are hearing about. Less beer afterwards, inspection of the sandwich box at lunch time by the OOD and a nanny state MROA food czar needs to be appointed!! |
I tend to agree with Racer, we've had development to allow the lightwieghts to get involved in the form of hull widening and depowering capabilities. Surely time to redress the balence and allow the heavywieghts to continue to sail competatively in the class they've made friends in by a few changes to sail area rules? |
I did surgest this once, at the begging of the meeting, all crews are weighed, and the lighter ones carry weight to all equal the heavyist. that should even up the results, and prob change sone of the designs. |
The easiest and cheapest way would be to allow a larger jib , not sure what sort of size increase would be of benefit. Would a 4 M jib add enough power ? |
Fully battened main? |
And don't forget as a race we are getting statistically taller and heavier , how long before more and more of the youbger generation are too heavy ? |
Why are modern Merlin Rockets so weight sensitive? |
Tried fully battern main, great and powerful on reaches, but slower upwind then the normal rig. |
Someone needs to organise some more open meetings - you can tell people aren't sailing enough when the talk starts to turn this way. |
Perhaps a rule change to allow more sail area would encourage new hull shapes add a bit of diversity. Effectively give development options for boats to suit heavywieght sailors as well as the lightweights? |
How is this going to get more boats built? |
This is not a thread about getting boats built, its about technology overtaking sailing and how to take the emphasis off hulls and put som individuality back into the class by considering the stagnation of the rigs. If you want a wake up look at the pics of Will W siling downwind at Putney in 15knots, they are sitting i the boat having a tea-party. there is no WOW in it, its all too easy. That's why there are no new people in the class, that's why its a 12 boat a year class and not a 100 like the RS200..... no fizzzzzzzzzzz!!! |
Like all innovation, if someone designs a new merlin, it takes a few brave souls to put hand in their pockets to begin with. |
Thought I might give Keiths Link a push http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Merlins/hazardous.htm |
Like Mags said. More boats on the water more competition for all abilities. I sailed at Putney and there was plenty of wow and fizz and tide and wind and won't forget how The Black Pearl charged expertly down the run, then reaching with the spinnaker pulled down as they rounded the mark. awesome sailing, out of the corner of my eye. |
To 6ft tall man, sorry my point was not made so I will try again. The class is a development and up until say 3591 there was quite a lot of development, quite clearly, but then up till 3691 there has been very little and things have become very cosy. I hope this makes more sense now. |
It's a shame that both of Keith's 2004 designs have apparently been built abroad. It must be 30 years since the last of Keith's boats was built so I suppose none of today's followers of fashion are prepared to take a punt. If I was young (was once) and could afford it (could when they cost �250!) I'd have a go at breaking the shackles. I did that with the first Adur 7 and she was a flyer. |
One of the reasons i left the class other then the fact my Mrs had a baby is that i was to heavy for the boat at just under 15 stone! Having said that i wouldnt think that you would want to increase sail area otherwise where do you stop?? Perhaps looking at different sail shpes etc. Perhaps proper fat head mains |
Robert has made a good point, and by doing so pointed out that these days fewer sailors are doing it themselves, (Garry Rucklidge and the vintage sailors excepted.) No one is doing a day job and building it themselves or making their own sails anymore. Mike jackson Cliff Norbury and John Aviston come to mind in doing it from scratch lots of People including Robert did it from bare hulls. Thus the "affordable" experiement is no longer there, it's the hours we work and no carpentry and metalwork at school anymore! My second Merlin spent her finishing winter in the School workshop. |
Surely the nex bit of 'fizzz' is going to come from lighter hulls not bigger rigs?? |
You all must be bonkers, you have one of the most successfull classes in the country, 100 boats at Salcombe, good open meeting turnouts, championship turnouts and club racing, and a choice of builders who are involved in the class, the main one is selling direct to the class at a reasonable rate and a fair price, why on earth do you want to tinker with the formula? Take great care what you might throw out with the bathwater. |
David you are absolutly right. |
I Think the design are at there max, there are boats for light people and boats for heavy people, I borrowed a winder Mk4 for the inlands, I know the wind was light, and I stayed away from the rafts, but the design did take the 29 stone in it, as Pat found out in one race. |
a quick look at th year book national results how trends are set & followed with a new designer/builder featuring once or twice for a couple of years & then becoming dominant over the next four years as the fleet gets more & more saturated with that builders product, at the moment no one has come up with any thing new, so everybody's playing safe! & it is now alot of money to take a gamble on, LS probably had a good building method to offer an alternative design reasonably priced. maybe he just needed a diferent design. |
One string systems, stepped out jib heads, flatter head mainsails, dropped bow vs standard, extended bilge keels - just a few things that have appeared in the fleet recently and I'm sure there are others. Even if most people who want a new boat are opting for Winder FRP, there seems to be plenty of tinkering going on! |
If you want innovation and encourage more "home builders", go smooth skin. People cannot afford to build a wood boat (a plug) before making plastic ones, smooth is easier to build than clinker in plastic (make a simple male mould and then work from inside to out). Look at the Cherubs & N12s - people tinker with them in their garages and produce some wild & wacky shapes. Of course, you immediately outclass the "old style" boats that cannot be converted - changing the rig is relatively trouble free, hulls are a bit more tricky. You also end up with less attractive boats - give me a wood boat with a varnish finish you can eat your dinner off any day of the week. |
Whilst 12's are a great class, their removal of the planking rules and later of the double curvature rules has led them down a path that makes one off building (either professional or amateur)less easy, because you need a full male or female mould to produce a hull. |
No-one who has identified themselves on this thread really thinks the class has much of a problem, certainly not one that needs radical changes to the rules. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that wood boats are slower than plastic ones, there just aren't as many about and no new ones have been built for nearly a decade. The raw physics of it all suggests that until you can actually start hiking and get the benefit of the extra power having more weight in the boat is bound to slow you down so the main solution is going the Dave Fowler way and trying to boost the power from the rig to get on the side earlier. Phil King reckoned that the benefits of the flatter hulls when planing were so considerable that even heavy crews were better off in a "lightweights" hull - my experiences with sailing the NSM2 in open water bear this out even allowing for modest skill levels. |
I am new to the fleet and purchased a new Winder this year. I have sailed Mirrors with my family for the last 7 years but have also sailed RS400 and GP14. I sail with my wife and the Merlin is just perfect for our total weight of 20 stone. The lead time for a new Merlin may be long but it is well worth the wait. The Merlin is a fantastic boat with a great handicap. I have sailed many classes but the Merlin will be with me for several years to come. Looking forward to meeting you all at our first open at Brightlingsea next year. |
i personlly do not see a lead time on a new boat as a disaster for the class. a lack of secondhand boats coming through will delay the odd person joining the class but also make people consider slightly older boats as a stop gap. supply and demand being what they are i am sure some people that perhaps aren't using their boat so much will consider it a profitable time to sell. i think these things work both ways and the fact that your boat builder can't make enough boats quickly enough is largely down to the quality of build / product they have produced to make the class so popular. wouldn't it be a lot worse if no-one wanted to buy a new boat as the quality was under question or they could be vastly different in effort put in to the one they sold to the national champion etc etc. |
you have a guy in the class putting fences on the batten pockets.....now that is sad!!! how about anothet 2 sq metre on the main , flat top main, biggder jib and 24 stone has a a chance, it's not that unfair it's actually moving with the times. FOR INSTANCE, 3 yrs ago you would have gone out at wittering on your board in a F5 with a 5.6m sail now it's a 7M , why , because tecnology has overtaken sailing and you can, that's why our boats are so so under powered now, time to go big. |
You have an incredibly strong class with good numbers at champs and the reason people are prepared to part with £16k for a new one is because the second hand market is so strong. Then to add to this you wish to take an exciting boat to sail and what I consider to be 'the ultimate thinking man's boat', and turn it into an beast, so much so that you need two large men to sail it competatively in any breeze thus eliminating the wives, girlfriends, children, etc. which are nodoubt a huge part of what makes this class so appealing to such a vast array of people of all ages. Do people really believe these changes will help develop and strengthen the class?! |
Yes |
No |
No... |
You do indeed have a wonderful class and I am sure that whilst development may have slowed (Even halted?) it will be temporary, as soon as people realise how non one-design manufacturers one designs are they are; I submit; in the words of Doctor Johnson "like a dog walking upon its hind legs or a woman preaching it's not that it be done well or badly but that it be done at all". or as a French General described the Charge of the Light Brigade, "C'est magnifique maid se nest pas la guerre." Pausing merely to add that the job of the Merlin Rocket Class (Like Cavalry in Warfare.) is to add decorum to what would otherwise be a rather vulgar affair! Floreat Merlin Rockets! |
It's rather like comparing F1 motor racing at Monte Carlo with NASCAR racing at the Daytona 500. |
Up to a point, intigued, but MOD's seem to be the concensus of perceived competition. |
A little extra sail will enable the heavier teams to remain competitive in a wider range of conditions. The rigs will still be easily depowerable for the lighter teams who will undoubtedly still be faster on certain points of sailing( it's just physics !) Perhaps this would open up the fleet to teams that currently go off to sail other boats able to carry more weight - RS400, Comet etc. |
The discussions about increasing competitiveness of heavy weights goes round in circles. Increasing the sail area is actually a temporary measure as the lightweights will find ways to depower, and they will go faster downwind. Thats how the raking rigs developed, flateners, etc. (twin poles for that matter). Same discussions with increasing spinnaker size - need I go on ... |
That's just it ! If you increase sail then to sail at full power you need more weight as the wind increases. There will always be a point when you need to de-power but this will be earlier on the lighter weight boats. More sail area means the de-power point comes earlier for all weights hence the heavier boats will have a greater band above the light weight de-power point where they are more competitive. Of course that won't help on some points down wind. |
The trouble is, can you see this being a factor/issue on some of the restricted water venues, e.g. rivers? The class is raced at a variety of venues/waters. A larger, more powerful rig may be great in the wide open spaces of sea sailing, but will it be suitable across the range of waters that are raced throughout the Silver Tiller? |
Could just go all retro and go back to 25ft rigs. |
This debate has been had on many occasions in the past, and no doubt will continue to be. |
Please can we have some sense here. What are you talking about, pandering to another class that you think will be a feed to ours...dream on!! |
Hull development has stagnated over the years with varients of the CT coming forth. One to buck the trend was the Joy Rider designed in 1996 - 1997 and hull numbers 3547, 3579 and a varient the Honeymoon (3551). They were out of the box hulls but raw stage one innovations but 99% there at the first attempt. The Winder CT has adopted the dropped bow (remember a call to Ian Holt and he said only drop the bow by X so I instructed Alan to drop it 2xX). The hull shape came out of a fluid thinking afternoon of looking at the NSM4 and CT jigs with the B18 innovations thrown in. No plans just gut feeling and many years of joint knowledge. Both 3547 and 3579 are fast and with one string and in FRP would be right in there. However, Winder Mk4s have adopted the most innovative things that the shape produced, dropped bow, plate pivot as far forward as possible and clean run off. However, Scroggy them came out with the shoulders in the MK5 as was the Joy Riders top end strength (not sure he measureed either). This is fast but to get the best out of the shape you would have to work the boat much harder as the beam is slightly blunter (further forward) than the Mk4 but ultimately the top end is potentially faster as the hull will sit up and go and give greater length to control downwind direction. Downside the hull is stiffer and so would have to pre-empt to avoid resistence and slower speed. |
If you're that desperate to sail a Merlin with more sail area why not try an MRX? |
Remember Mad Jack at Poole flying a protype assymetric in a windy POW, 11 symetric (legal) finishers ... we were 11th! |
Chris M, why on earth would anyone want to try an MRX? I don't think that is a very realistic or constructive angle to come from. |
The 12s recently looked into the weight carrying issue and came to a very simple conclusion that i suspect will apply to the Merlin too. The conclusion, from a number of genuine experts in and out of the class was that to make it carry weight better would require either: |
Wikipedia avg weights- |
I'm 6ft and a pretty standard build. Glen and davo are both 6et tall and they managed to twice who the silver tiller sailing a hull that was thought to be a lightweights boat. My point about the mrx is that rather than radically change a class that is working why not sail one that ticks your boxes? Its like putting a kite on an enterprise. You'll get a more exciting but ultimately weaker class. |
How heavy is your crew Chris ? |
I like innovation, and I like having some limits to the class. Wherever there are limits, those who are best able to adapt and exploit the opportunities the limits provide will rise to the top. Surely thats the same in all sports. Changing the parameters will disadvantage some, and allow others to benefit, but probably won't make an even playing field for all. |
You fatties have it easy! Us skinnies have to hike so much harder it really hurts. Can't we reduce the sail area a bit? |
My mum always said i was just big boned! |
Now I know who ate all the pies. |
I think there are several very interesting points here! |
Usually roughly the same as me, about 11.5 to 12 stone. |
Unfortunately at 182 cm and 178 cm we would have nothing to loose at 148 kg. Just a fact of life and we get on with it. A bit irritating though when you find a flyweight pi..ing past you downwind. |
I get the average of 80kg but not the height. Is this still OK? |
In view of Deepy's comments regarding fitness and getting down to weight, is there something the Association could offer by way of help/advice (perhaps during Rutland training) around this seemingly simple but practically for many complicated issue? I don't know about others but, frankly, due to the risk of boredom and a lack of surplus cash, I avoid gyms like the plague. Some advice from the front-runners concerning alternative fitness regimes would be very welcome. After all, many of the front-runners, not least Deepy (no offence mate) seem to consume vast quantities of beer without it appearing to convert to any midriff blubber! Not that I spend a lot of time looking at their mid-riffs (except for the female crews that is). Better get my coat... |
Why not have a minimum sailing weight of say 165kg. for the crew. We have maximum sailing weights in other classes, why not a minimum. Weight jackets are comfortable and warm to wear! I used to wear 10kg regularly in the Soling before harnesses. |
If weight is so much of an issue, why not do like Formula 1 and have a minimum weight for crews and boat combined- |
I suppose you can compare this to various other sports, one being Horse Racing. Each jockey is "Weighed in" and out as the weight for all has to be the same. If a jockey is underweight lead gets added in the saddle. |
SB3's, Etchells, Dragons, Melges etc weigh in all the time. All part of the fun! |
Talking of weight, there's a suggestion on p25 of the new magazine that would seem to be a cost effective way of developing a faster, better handling merlin for a wider range of crew weights...Any thoughts? |
An positive suggestion from Barry regarding weight. A standard weight might be an interesting experiment. Where there is a maximum some of us have probs staying under however we manage it. Any weight carried would have to be also with a compulsory lifejacket wouldn't it! Still they increasingly compulsory anyway. Like Barry I recall weight jackets though I nver wore one my crews that did said they felt like a new man when they took it off at the end of a race though if crews or helms wore them you might get the Three Day Eventing situations where all riders have to ride at 11stone 11lbs or metric equivalent which I momentarily forget, where some of the girls cannot actually carry their saddle with its weight cloth to weigh in, they get on the scales and have it given to them. So it might be better to make the boat have a weight cloth where the weight is made up. A possible all up weight 26stones or metric equivalent? Barry may have given all us non weight watchers hope in all classes. |
59'er was introduced with 150kg threshold, hull weight added to make up the difference. I had the pleasure of helping Laser 4000 lightwights pull up their wide racks, heavy boats up the beach because they were physically too weak - funnily enough no one offered to help us with our minimum rack, but no weight boat! Constant source of mirth that one! Tasars also have a similar rule. So this is nothing new, but then again, nothing in this game is ..... |
Minimum all up weight. mmm let me see. Lightweights would have to put big lumps of metal in the middle of the boat. Heavyweights would then have advantage as their weight would out where its needed. All sound a bit complicated. |
Perhaps a relevant question would be to ask on what basis we want to compete. |
It's about time the playing field got levelled in favour of the "larger" man or woman I'd sooner be a 6'2" man with a 48" chest and 40" waist than an anorexic emaciated dwarf. I have to agree from what i've seen of them the Merlin Girls are a trim gorgous lot. Not sure where the weight talent thing comes talent is I suggest more important just two examples Rodney Pattison first Supercalifragilisticexpealidocius when weighed at the 1968 Olypics was close on 100lbs overweight and that was such a domineering performance. Likewise in the afformentioned Three Day Eventing the undisputed greatest rider of all time Mark Todd at 6'6" tall struggled to do 13 stones and it didn't slow him or his tiny horse Charisma down or any of the others he rode too. On the flat the great Lester often put up overweight. |
It would solve my baby-sitting problems ............. |
How about having a choice of crews. You could have a fat muscled up one for windy weather, a scrawney lightwieght one for when it is really light and a rich one to pay for all the modifications etc that people are suggesting! Maybe I have it wrong but I thought that sailboat racing was about skill, ability to read windshifts, ability to put yourself in the right places, keeping the boat up to scratch etc. It seems all some people are interested in is straight line drag racing rather than going round corners. A good helm in a good boat with a fat crew will beat a bad helm in a good boat with a scrawney crew no matter what the weather. If the hull shape has optomised then developement will come in other places such as sail shape and mast characteristics, what exactly is wrong with that? Ther will be days when us lightweights just get blown away despite maximum rake and not flying the kite and the heavyweights will just power up and go and there will be days when us lightweights will rule the roost, that is sailing and race over a series of races rather than one offs. |
I fail to see how anyone could seriously pick a crew to match conditions. Its not golf! |
Mine is a 57 years old ribbed boat which weighs God knows what and I sail and repair her every week and my smile is as big as Hamish's and I am never going to win anything. But occasionally, very occasionally I surprise myself over one leg of the course but I honestly haven't a clue what I have done right!! BUT for that short moment the feeling is great. Last year in the blow at Hampton in the Silver tiller Secret Water No 111 was about 15th out of 30 odd - now that was a result but of course helmed expertly by Mags!! |
A choice of crews what I wonder is the collective noun? Not new in 1963 a Championship of two halves Brian Southcott did just that and took Tony Davis in a very blowy race reverting to Adrian Legg in the lighter stuff. He won the championship but not the crews prize which was won by John Faulkener ( A real heavyweight!) crewing Robin Judah who most thought should have won that year. Robert Harris managed third with a light girl crew (His wife.)THe performance of the week. |
And was it after that champs or a different one where they set up the "one crew only" champs rule? |
Its not the finding one to match your weight that is a problem but finding one that is easy on the eye as helms tend to spend a lot of time looking forward at the crew. Of course, crews very rarely look back so ugly helms are ok. Seriously though, are people suggesting that the merlin is no longer an "exciting" boat or unless you weigh less than a carbon fibre feather you are not competative? In todays force5 and gusting, reaching with the kite up was very definitely "exciting" and so was the swimming! |
If my helmesman found me easy on the eye, I'd be extremely concerned. Particularly with him as close behind me as that. |
Then or at the same time that no discards were allowed until a minimum number of races (4?) had been sailed which was post 1965. |
The 1963 championship at Whitstable provided an astonishing variety of conditions. The first two races were blown off then on the Wednesday we had two races in very rugged conditions followed by a light breeze on Thursday. Friday's race was sailed in extraordinary conditions with variable shifty winds, fog and rain with the last leg completed in a near flat calm. Brian Southcott won the race and the championship for the third time. |
The 1963 championship at Whitstable provided an astonishing variety of conditions. The first two races were blown off then on the Wednesday we had two races in very rugged conditions followed by a light breeze on Thursday. Friday's race was sailed in extraordinary conditions with variable shifty winds, fog and rain with the last leg completed in a near flat calm. Brian Southcott won the race and the championship for the third time. |
We always joked that Adrian Legg stayed on shore to keep his wallet dry! Didnt he turn up at the champs with his Merlin Rocket, Restless, hitched up behind a Rolls Royce? |
Yep, but he was a very generous man in spirit as well as fiscally he was also for those times old for a dinghy crew rumour said 65 but my Father who had seen his birth certficate (Life Insurance.) said not quite that old! These days of course lots of us who sail Merlins or whatever are nudging or or over the 60 and some 70. |
Years and/or kilos? |
70s and nearly 80s in some cases! Which is a great advert for Merlin Rockets and sailing in general. Doesn't just keep the body in some sort of shape but the mind as well. Although I've heard it said after some races - "the heart and mind was there, but sadly not the body". |
Garry your a bit optimistic 60-70kgs aren't you!!!! We can dream..... |
I suppose a self draining hull is out of the question? |
Not sure a self draining hull adds much to a modern merlin, in any wind that is likely to knock you over, the boat empities in a few seconds anyway. The problem with self draining hulls (I had a GP14 with one) from my experience, is they tend to turtle very quickly (and with a Merlin that increases the risk of mast breakage), and when you right them they float so high that the helm often has to swim round to the transom to be able to climb in. Never the less, for a heavier slower boat, such as the GP14, it does mean you can capsize and your race isn't totally over. |
I have to agree with David on this one. I think a self-draining hull is what modern Merlins are crying out for. I sail an Int 14 and a Contender and when they come back up after a capsize you are sailing INSTANTLY, with no water left inside at all and they don't seem particularly prone to turning turtle. With regard to any swim to the transom, surely the idea is to go back into the boat over the side, as it comes back up. A Laser comes back up with precious little water in it and you can get back in without even getting your feet wet! I feel that rules 4(g) and 4(h) are unnecessarily obstructive to developments in this regard. Whilst some of the developments being explored in this thread (such as increasing the sail area) could be objected to on the grounds that they might make the boat more difficult for some to sail, the development of a self draining hull would make the boat MORE sailable for all (and safer too in some situations). I expect that some may wish to argue that developing an internal moulding for the "floor" would be difficult but nobody complains about the need for low bow tank mouldings. |
No no no,please no. No double floors. My knees would never stand it. Awful horrible hateful things. I sailed a GP with one recently. I was crippled for a week. |
That would just be because you had to spend so much time on your knees praying for the damned boat to achieve any speed! |
I thought that the whole idea of sailing was not to capsize. I have often wondered whether handicaps for different dinghies are related to a straight line speed or over a course. I feel "quickly emptied" boats allow poor sailing not to be penalised. Having been behind Lasers all season in my old lady watching them capsize several times in a race I can't touch them as they are up and away so fast. I capsized twice all season and on both occasions it was race over for me. Don't really want to put big holes in my transom!! |
Its quite simple choice for me, I left the GP fleet due to the raised floor ( it distroyed my knees) and if this happened to the merlin, then my next class hunt would begin again. |
Double floors - more buoyancy - boat floats higher when capsized - blows away from you - more effort to get onto the board. |
Thank you Mags, as 'stepping back' into a capsized boat, i.e. laser dry capsize style doesn't apply to a modern wide merlin. http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp? |
Garry: You are quite right. To put holes in your transom would destroy the nature of your boat, but then I'm sure you don't sail her with the intention of trying to compete with the latest merlins. You also state that your capsizes ruined your race. Capsizes are a feature of dinghy sailing and the ability to recover quickly is part of the business, otherwise the introduction of transom flaps would not have been allowed. |
link to picture taht acually works :-) http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.asp?folder=gallery/open_meetings/salcombe/2006&file=salcombeopen2006_fullers.jpg |
Ref. National 12's. Once you have worket out different capsize righting techniques and adapted your sailing style the double floor is not a big deal for the agile. However there is no doubt that there are a lot of less agile sailors who do not like double floors. This is particularly relevant when sailing in restricted waters. |
Personally I much prefer my 12 with the double bottom. No more bailing in the light stuff after the water’s come over the gunwales tacking. No more debating at what point pre start you should sail off to get the boat dry and when you should be lining up. No more leaky bailers, and the whole thing’s stiffer. |
Sorry that should have read 'why change things to generate less'. That made less sense than changing your rules at the moment. |
Thanks for that N12, some sanity. As pointed out earlier in this thread, no-one who has identified themselves really feels Merlins need to radically alter. Barnsie has some suggestions but these involve fiddling within the existing parameters and increasing the diversity away from the perceived Winder/one string raking rig monopoly. Fortunately the class committee take an interest in the forum at this time of year without feeling it truly represents mainstream opinion in the class - the MRX only succeeded in a limited way, N12's have had problems following their rule changes, the engineers reckon the boat needs to be heavier to make heavyweights more competitive and nobody really wants that. It's good to have the hull weight at a level where a boat can be feasibly built as a one-off in wood and it's not as if we are talking about a boat that's so heavy it is a problem to manage on a slipway like a GP14 or wayfarer, I can launch and recover single handed on occasion. |
I would also like to add my thanks to N12. He (or she) makes two salient points. Firstly that there can be distinct advantages to sailing a boat with a double skin and secondly that going down this route can produce problems which relate more to the success of the class and class membership rather than the performance of the boat. These two points are both very important and clearly concensus about the relative importance of each needs to be reached. Clearly a development which may bring a small improvement to the boat but which destroys the membership of the class is unlikely to be acceptable. |
When I look back at my last post it never quite reads as you want it to. I enjoy discussions like this and it's one of the reasons for sailing a Merlin. I do wonder why people are anxious about revealing their identities on this forum. What I meant about the committee was really that the present committee have achieved great success for the class with the best turnouts at opens and the nats of any restricted class, this has coincided with a period of overt stability of the main parts of the rules so boats have not been rendered obsolete and there is a very buoyant 2nd hand market. There are a number of things that can be done within the existing parameters of the restricted class (note NOT development class like a Moth) that have not been fully explored. The change in the spinnaker rule has been universally welcomed but it essentially allowed development of a sail that properly exploited the longer pole and the maximum area allowable by changing the measurement rule and freeing constraints on sail shape. The interesting thing would be whether there is something similar that can be done for the jib and main that would give extra power in light to medium conditions to help the heavier teams exploit their extra righting moment. I didn't intend to dismiss the views on this thread at all, they are very interesting, but I did feel that this had memories of very similar discussions on the forum in the close season about taking lead out of the boat! |
When I look back at my last post it never quite reads as you want it to. I enjoy discussions like this and it's one of the reasons for sailing a Merlin. I do wonder why people are anxious about revealing their identities on this forum. What I meant about the committee was really that the present committee have achieved great success for the class with the best turnouts at opens and the nats of any restricted class, this has coincided with a period of overt stability of the main parts of the rules so boats have not been rendered obsolete and there is a very buoyant 2nd hand market. There are a number of things that can be done within the existing parameters of the restricted class (note NOT development class like a Moth) that have not been fully explored. The change in the spinnaker rule has been universally welcomed but it essentially allowed development of a sail that properly exploited the longer pole and the maximum area allowable by changing the measurement rule and freeing constraints on sail shape. The interesting thing would be whether there is something similar that can be done for the jib and main that would give extra power in light to medium conditions to help the heavier teams exploit their extra righting moment. I didn't intend to dismiss the views on this thread at all, they are very interesting, but I did feel that this had memories of very similar discussions on the forum in the close season about taking lead out of the boat! |
Sorry for digging up another ancient, formerly dead thread, but this is such an interesting forum full of gems... |
Sorry for digging up another ancient, formerly dead thread, but this is such an interesting forum full of gems... |
Wait a minute |
Neither the mast, boom, poles or rudder form part of measured weight. |
Thanks John. |
It's been interesting to read this old thread (although difficult in places, because of the appalling spelling of some of you!). |
Laurie Smart has a similar view, though his proposed solution would be to move the rise of floor measurement point aft by about a foot allowing narrower waterlines in the bow. I don't think either of these will catch on as the boat we have seems to provide a very satisfactory sailing experience for 2 ordinary sized sailors over a variety of sailing venues and the idea of potentially outclassing over a hundred competitive boats doesn't really bear contemplating as a development. |
Andrew, you say, "the idea of potentially outclassing over a hundred competitive boats doesn't really bear contemplating as a development". Heaven forbid that a new killer design comes along that outclasses all existing boats. But it has happened before. That's what can happen in a development class. I think a lot of people (not least those with boats built in the last 10 years or so) might be very ambivalent about that possibility. Perhaps we should ban all new development, just to be on the safe side. |
Didn't the shift to carbon rigs outdate a lot of boats almost overnight? Taking about 10kgs of unmeasured weight out of a boat is quite an advantage only overcome by spending stacks of cash. |
I agree with Keith, one of the attractions of the Merlin Rocket is the fact that within the rule restrictions, we can experiment with different hull shapes and rigs: with the aim of getting a faster shape, maybe this would ultimately outclass other boats but as Keith says it would not be the first time. |
No, I'm not against innovating within the design parameters we have, but the specific idea of altering the rise of floor measurement I think would have adverse consequences. I'm actually less against the Smart idea around a tolerance for the measurement point for the rise of floor. What is interesting about the (somewhat) different shapes that have been produced recently is that they have been so similar in speed to the benchmark design. My boat is a different and unfashionable shape and I am aware that there are strengths and weaknesses against the CT standard. |
I understand the discussion about variations in hull shape impacting boat speed but I am not sure I really see the benefit of worrying too much about the weight of the boat for 95% of the fleet given the significant differences in crew weights (unless all top crews are really bang on the correct design weight for their boat?). Surely a few less pints and pies the night before would have similar impact to a few Kgs shaved off a rig weight and at a lot less cost?! Pictures from the Salcombe socials suggest pies and pints are consumed in significant volumes ? I guess the finer points are relevant to the very top end of the fleet but for most of us I think fitness, practice and tactics are probably key to boat speed? |