MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : needlespars

I have a needlespars mast, hog stepped, which came with the boat(Winder 'Disguys' 1978), and seems to me to be incredibly heavy, and not very compliant. 

Now, I'm not suggesting that I have tapped anywhere near the full potential of this rig, far from it, but I can't help wondering whether this is making the complex task of setting up even more difficult. What sort of weight saving and benefit would I gain from an M7 for instance? (short of deck stepping or moving over to the dark side)

Any advice would be very much appreciated!


Posted: 25/11/2004 21:08:23
By: john cunningham
I think that the performance gain from any weight saving will be minimal at best.

What you need to do is either:

1) Get the Needlespar to work properly - it can be done, i've heard Alan Warren used to use them.

2) Get hold of an M7 or Proctor D to suit your boat.

Option 1 is pretty easy and will probably cost either a visit to Shoreham or a wait until someone who has used one replies to this thread.

Option two is more difficult as good second hand masts are quite hard to find and buying new will not be cheap.

Also you don't say what sails you're using, how old they are and what rig they are actually intended for use on. All of these will have far more impact than the weight of the spar.

Tell us what you have and chances are someone will know the answers!


Posted: 25/11/2004 21:34:48
By: Chris M
How heavy is "incredibly heavy"?  From memory the hog-stepped Proctor D is over 10kg rigged (16lbs bare spar weight I think was marked on my gold anodised one)& the M7 is a similar mast.  Look at the archive bits on the website for Dan Alsop's article on making older boats go (reinstate the mainsheet traveller).  Have you bought recent sails designed for a bendy deck-stepped rig, because they won't suit your mast at all.  You would probably get more performance to the pound from buying a new mainsail than a new mast


Posted: 26/11/2004 09:26:10
By: Andrew M
I had a needlespar on Once Bitten (ex Warren boat). Heavy is right, and 0 gust response. I'd look round for an M1 which is about the lightest ally mast you can get. If your sailing inland not so likely to snap it as at sea on a windy day. If you have the time and energy deck stepping is a good idea. There was a DIY guide in the Merlin mag a few years back.

Try putting something on the wanted section of the for sale page.

Cheers, Ross


Posted: 26/11/2004 10:04:00
By: Ross
Here was the link on Deck stepping.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/fowler.htm

Posted: 26/11/2004 10:24:24
By: Ross
Even needlespars varied in section/type they were a pound or so heavier than the proctor D but were fast in the right hands, usually heavyweights.  the spreader set up was fairly crude, bend them into position! 1-1/2" deflection out & similar back should produce 35-50 mm prebend with around 300 on the forestay (loos gauge) As per previous the sails are a major factor crap rags are just that, Slow!
As a further piece of useless info although Needlespars faded from favour in many classes, many were seen to favour direct dependants, eg Goldspars (ex needlespar Aus importer) Holmspar & Wavelength to name a few. If set up they should still be reasonably good at club level,but times do move on current Carbon sticks weigh less than 1/2 a needle. My first needlespar cost me £50 in 1973 how much for a carbon in 2004.
now wheres my zimmer(needle)frame!!!!!!!!!


Posted: 26/11/2004 19:14:38
By: Barry Watkin
An M1 is only really viable on a deckstepped rig, because unless buying new the ones available will be too short! If buying new you might as well get an M7.

Decksepping to my mind doesn't make economic sense unless you can get the bits to do it cheaply and do the work yourself.

There are almost certainly boats dying in dinghy parks with masts on them that would do the job for you - I know that Shustoke have a number of boats in that state and might be worth a visit if you're near the Midlands. Didn't think of that earlier!


Posted: 26/11/2004 19:29:18
By: Chris M
Thanks for all the advice.

I suppose the real dilemna stems from the state of the mast. Do I overhaul and re-rig it, as it's pulleys etc have seen better days? The origional main (morrison) still fits well, and although far from new condition, are the best set I have, certainly in light airs. The other set is far more crisp but doesn't seem to do any of the above as well. At the moment we point well and tack slow or vice versa, which seems a little contradictory. Light conditions on the pond suit the setup quite well.

New sails on old rig? - only if it's in good condition, which it isn't.

I'm going to do a weight comparison between the various contenders (out of interest) and cost out deck stepping - only materials and advice/design input required as the work will be done by me.

Yes, I feel a new deck coming on!

John


Posted: 13/12/2004 19:01:45
By: john cunningham
If your boat is 1978 (sail no or year) then it wont be suitable for deck-stepping I think. Hull wont be able to take the extra load.


Posted: 14/12/2004 09:17:19
By: Mags
Deck stepping an older hull is possible, but it requires some serious bracing to prevent the hull imploding under the additional rig tension needed.  Andy Hayes of Starcross wrote a magazine article about this last year (?) after converting his NSM, 3125 Footloose.  Andys spaceframe system seems to do the trick and on occasion he seems to have some good pace - he might do even better if he got out and sailed more regularly.....(Andy, HINT!!!)


Posted: 14/12/2004 21:16:01
By: Dave Lee
This might explain why Mr Hayes is advertising a hog stepped M7 for sale!

There is a nice pic of the support structure in 3529 on the front of the mag. I realise this is a purpose built deck stepped design, but is this the type of space frame we're talking about?

Is Andy's article available on the website or may I acquire a back issue?


Posted: 14/12/2004 22:00:19
By: john cunningham
Its about time I got Andy's article converted for the web. I'll email him and ask for some more photos.

Deck stepping a 3xxx hull is one thing, but I didnt think anything much older than that would work?


Posted: 15/12/2004 09:10:28
By: Mags
Kate's deck stepped :-)


Posted: 15/12/2004 09:21:57
By: Andrew M
Oh you know what I mean...

Does Kate have lowers/puller?!


Posted: 15/12/2004 17:30:01
By: Mags
Her number is 3137 and the existing structure of arched thwarts and curved I-beam deck support, although lightweight in appearance, carries the mark and understanding of a true engineer (Mr Winder).

Can I deck step leaving the existing deck in place (high dome) or does the whole deal require lowering to the flatter profile of later deck stepped designs?


Posted: 15/12/2004 20:11:43
By: john cunningham
-was kate origionally hog stepped?


Posted: 15/12/2004 20:12:45
By: john cunningham
It's not the flatter profile in itself that increases the strength, it's the fact that the deck and bow tank on newer boats have been bought back to the shroud bases so that there is solid wood holding the shroud bases apart.

Boats pre 3200ish just are not stiff enough to make a modern deck stepped rig work.

Kate was deck stepped origionally as were all boats of that era. I don't know about Merlins, but certainly National 12s were for a long time deck stepped for no better reason that when the galvanised wire shrouds broke the mast just fell overboard and didn't break!


Posted: 16/12/2004 08:36:58
By: Chris
And in most boats of 3200ish (well, mine anyway) the cascamite is beginning to give up after 20 years, and even normal hull stresses are popping planks/decking.

John, if you enjoy tinkering with your boat, you'll do the conversion, I know! Have a think about a space frame, and buy plenty of epoxy...


Posted: 16/12/2004 09:54:31
By: Mags
John I've been watching your thread develop & would have to say that as we all suspect your boat is pre bow-tank/shroud bulkhead era and therefore would require a space frame arrangement or major rebuild to accomadate the loads. This is all possible and can be very therapeutic, it is not cheap and will add weight. I suspect she is already (like a lot of middle age people!) overweight so again I suspect any performance gain would be negligable, The real gain I believe would be the new rig & sails you put on the boat.
I would suggest that a good secondhand mast coupled to new sails would be the most economic and best way to go,not over stressing the hull or loading more weight in as would be the case of deck steping Etc, I guess it all comes down to how much money & how much time you've got and how early in the season do you want to be out sailing!
Best of luck Barry.


Posted: 16/12/2004 20:36:05
By: Barry Watkin
Hi Barry

You're right of course. The old mast requires much therapy, not only in the weight and stiffness dept. but also and more importantly in the mechanical pulley and wiring dept. Much to be gained with a new rig and sails.

The other question is one of butchering an old boat for the sake of it. Adding weight in order to lose it doesn't make much sense either. I suppose that if I wanted go-faster machinery then a newer boat would be the answer. However, restoring and inproving what I have got is more important to me. The designer didn't rig this boat from new, as I believe it was supplied as a hull only. Lots of room for improvement then! This must have been a beautiful boat when new with much fine detail. Call me sentimental, but it deserves restoring.

Thanks for all your comments.

Dear Santa..........................


Posted: 16/12/2004 20:55:58
By: john cunningham
I bought 3212, a Rowsell bad company with the old high tank, that had been "converted" to deck stepped by plonking a shortened mast on the deck. The first breezy sail on the sea caused the sides to fold in towards the middle, tearing the foredect in the process. I was obliged to rebuild and took the opportunity to put in a front bulkhead and low tank. It was quite a lot of work but not too terrible and of course the boat looked great with a new deck, and quite modern looking. My only mistake was not allowing enough cut-away in the deck, which fowled the line of the jib sheets. I have lived with this for several years but recently set to and modified the deck to correct this. The effect has been a very dramatic increase in performance. The hull itself is still in very good order. The bulkhead makes the hull a lot stiffer. The low tank works well. I would say it is well worthwhile if you can find the time and money to do the work.


Posted: 18/12/2004 12:34:26
By: dick holden
Hi Dick,

I would be interested to know more details of the bulkhead and why you chose this instead of a space frame arrangement. Also have you persevered with the mast that came with the boat or have you fitted something more appropriate?

regards
John


Posted: 18/12/2004 13:58:47
By: john cunningham
I have a needlespar on one of my other boats, (an international Moth,) and wish I hadn't. It's deck stepped and the kicking strap is hull stepped, ergo it doesn't work properly. Also the mast is poorly made compared to proctor and bends too much in the middle. I'd stick to hog stepped and get a second hand proctor of some sort.


Posted: 18/12/2004 16:17:05
By: Neil Ancient G
I put in a bulkhead rather than a space frame because I thought it was easier and cheaper and I could do it myself. It really isnt that hard with epoxy fillet glues and looks quite OK. The hard part is the associated re-decking - and the hardest part of that is the gunwales and the inwales.

I used the mast that came with the boat - an M7 - and the lowers are fixed at the outer ends, and go over pulleys fixed to the mast and are pulled downwards to tension them. Crude but works fine. I just cant justify the cost of elaborate systems on this low value boat. The main shrouds go to muscle boxes on the bulkhead (again, they came with the boat).

Happy to send you pictures if you are intersted.


Posted: 20/12/2004 10:40:29
By: dick holden
Thanks for your reply Dick, I would be very interested to see some pics please.


Posted: 20/12/2004 23:37:34
By: john cunningham

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