As a continuance of a discussion on Face Book between Gareth, Dougal and Myself.
 
We are trying to coordinate some friendly and competitive (if there is such a thing) gatherings of wooden and prime of life boats. To sail against each other on a handicap system relative to the boats age/design etc.. These would be separate to any official ST or other fixtures.
 
Rather than just advertise an event, and find that no one is able to attend.
 
Could those of you who are interested in this indicate the following.
 
Boat/sail number
location, 
how far if at all you are willing to travel?
how many events would interest you?
would a nice big shiny trophy tempt you? 
How many gatherings would you like? 
 
If I've missed anything please feel free to add it.
 
Thanks 

Miles,
 
I have to ask, why does this need to take place separately from the ST? 
 
Surely it is better for owners of POL boats, the MROA and the host club to get as many Merlin Rockets out at the same venue at the same time as is humanly possible. OK, you want to do some things a little differently but i think you'll find clubs are keener to push the boat out for you if they have 50 boats at an event rather than 10.
 
There are over 20 open events on the calender for Merlins already it has got to be possible to nominate a few events to suit your needs - the reason why we as a committee aren't doing that is because we don't really know what you guys want and every time we have tried to encourage older boats to turn to an event it hasn't worked. The best qualified people to sort this out are the guys like you who sail the boats so I absolutely agree with what you're trying to do.
 
But can you please work with us rather than trying to do something independently!
 
All that will happen otherwise is we will end up with the class being diluted and lots of small gatherings rather than the big fleets we all want to see. If we get enough boats out at the same time there will be someone for everyone to race against wherever you are in the fleet and regardless of how old your boat is and how slow you perceive it to be.
 
Happy to discuss via email and feed back to the committee if you wish. 

I'm keen to support getting these older boats out on the circuit and I will be doing my best to get to as many events as possible this year but I agree with Chris, this is best done in conjunction with the existing calendar and in particular ST. I don't see much point in reinventing the DeMay series  (which doesn't appeal to me for lots of reasons). Having done a few events last year in my old boat I have found the "main fleet" in general most welcoming and the racing is fun and competitive right through the fleet regardless of age of boat. The best approach is for individual owners to choose events they could do in advance and make an effort to go then let others know you are going. Perhaps a post here the week before the event might be a good way then we will have an idea of weather etc? I think there are lots of good intentions here and lots of good ideas.

Hello Dave
 
This isn't about trying to start up a separate 'group' it's about getting people interested in going to events. We are trying to establish who would attend if they knew others would be going.
 
Plus if a couple of friends are meeting up to have a casual sail, if someone else knew about it they might, just, like to join in. From there you may begin to get people going to events knowing that other POL boat owners will be there that they know.  A lot of owners may never have been to a ST meeting and may just want some reassurance that someone they know with a similar aged boat will also be there.
 
Chris has been emailed with a more specific outline. But for now we're just trying to establish who is where. 
 
Certainly not trying to infer that MROA is not welcoming, we all know it is. 

Hi Miles,
 
We may do the odd casual sail at Queen Mary in the spring / summer.  Will probably do half a dozen Open Meetings.
I'm in SW London 8 miles from QM, prepared to travel 100 miles or so once in a while. Prefer one-day meetings, would like to qualify for the ST but not keen to flog round big sea courses all week-end. Will do a few of the local(to me) meetings (ie Tamesis, Hampton, etc), prefer to look at the weather the week before an event and then plan from there.  Boat is 3165. Not particularly interested in special trophies and handicaps (age or equipment related - every design has it's day in my view).
Regards, Dave

Hi miles,

Very similar to Dave, Anna and I are in Guildford. Will travel 100 miles max, one day events, do not like long sea courses but have not plucked up courage to take rong number on the river yet. Would like to qualify for ST or a POL series without open sea fixtures in future so 5/6 meetings.

Have another nipper/crew in the oven at present so won't be sailing till August. Aiming to do a couple of days at fed week then some events after that if weather is looking inviting and babysitters are a plenty.

Boat is 3573, tiny bit too new for POL but all wood!

Si

 Surely there is a easy solution to this - Don't the National Twelves and I think the Fireballs just do this by giving old boat prizes at their open meetings. You could have a couple or more age bands - no need for any De May style handicapping or separate starts, no alternative circuit, one set of results for the whole event. A minimum number of qualifiers (4 boats?) before the prizes are awarded, and if no body turns up then the prizes (non perishable) can be used for another event. You could have a pot at the end of the year if people want one.
 Regrettably I am presently shore bound by my health but this sort of approach would have got me to Aldeburgh this season as my nearest open meeting - cant think of a much nicer place to sail a Merlin. Next year perhaps

Hello Edward, It's a little more complicated than just old boats racing old boats all on the same yardstick, or which was the first old boat to finish.
 
One issue is: an old boat sailed well, should on handicap beat a new boat sailed badly.  If that were the case then there may well be more older boats attending.
 
This does not detract from first over the line wins, but a corrected time could be used to provide separate results, you are  then [included] in with a chance of beating a new boat. Whether it counts for a prize or not is not the point. It let's you judge how well you sailed against the top guys which is what it is all about.
 
There are other issues, but as I said before this thread is really about finding out who is where and how far they might sail for a some wood against wood so to speak.
 
The points mentioned have been passed on to the MROA 

 I am sure we can all agree that there are several issues here, the main one being highlighted above by Miles.  However, I think the class would benefit most from us attending ST, and other, events and then, if there are enough of us, pressing the committee to consider introducing a handicap result as well as a 'first past the post' result.
We will be hoping to attend Hamble, Hayling, Weymouth, Starcross and Draycote this year to sail around at the back of the fleet and it would be great to see other 'woodies' at these events! 
 

Miles 
Whilst I take your point please be assured there are plenty of old and I mean 20 or even 30 years plus boats that regularly give much younger boats a bloody nose at ST events without handicap adjustments irrespective of what the boat is made off or if it has a plastic mast!
Like Alan says get along to an ST event and have a go then the committee can see and talk to attendees about the best way forward.
It's not my club but Wembly is a fantastic event, very welcoming, breakfast buns, tea / coffee, Mars bars and water as well as chill afterwards all in the entry price and a restricted category lake where older designs are at less of a disadvantage.

Miles -Introducing a handicapped result would mean that you have to have a time keeper for all the ST events and agree handicaps. This does complicate race management. Until the handicaps for the older boats are uncoupled from the ever decreasing figure for the new ones you will have arguments. This was discussed on the forum around a year ago but doesn't appear to have happened. By racing in age related bands you don't need any extra race management but you do provide an event which might be attractive to older boats. A race within a race if you like and the possibility - without a handicap - that you might just beat some of the newer boats by virtue of you ability. Sometimes these things happen

I agree. Lets forget all about handicaps and just get out there and sail. Handicaps aren't going to improve the racing or the fun, in fact it will probably lead to all sorts of bad feeling.... What happens when people start exploiting the rules to get the best handicap? I have seen boats that have wooden rigs / dacron sails just for the vintage events and full carbon for the others.
 
One of the best things about the class is the strong class racing scene and the fact that old boats can be quite quick on occasion in their own right. If I wanted to go handicap racing I could do that at my local resevoir against a variety of RS's and the like.

This isn't just about Silver Tiller events and Inlands etc..  We probably couldn't attend enough of those to qualify anyway.
 
I might at best make 3 ST's time permitting this year. What about the rest of the time? 
 
There are 3 Merlins, ranging from 2404 to 3646. Off the same PY who is going to win? Who is going to get fed up of not winning and will not want to play any more?
 
This is the situation we have throughout the country. It is not the ST class racing nor the Championships that is the bugbear. 
 
It is racing at your local club, it is now a waste of time if you have to race against other classes. 
 
This thread is to try and ascertain who would like to sail with similar aged boats, handicapped if need be, and get these boats back on the water in a competitive spirit. Have a few beers and admire the boats. May be just 3 times a year.
 
We have no one else to sail against!! Because we have to sail off  the current yardstick at open regattas. 
 

Miles,
I am not clear why you have this problem 'throughout the country'.   A lot of clubs are willing to endorse age based handicaps for club racing if asked in the right way by their members.  It creates an extra headache for the race officers and results managers but not an insurmoutable one and one our club seems happy to take on to improve club racing.
 
Big handicap events are more of an issue.  I quite understand why the Bloody Mary etc. would not want to take on multiple handicaps for the same class and there I guess it just has to be about taking part.
 
If the Merlin class publish modern handicaps in sail number ranges that correspond to the PY of the Merlin in that era then I cannot really see an issue with taking those numbers to your sailing committee.
 
Antony

Hello Antony,
 
 
I am simply trying to ascertain if anyone with a POL  or an older boat, would be interested in joining a few others for a sail. We'll have personal handicaps if needed.
 
If there is enough interest then perhaps an approach to the MROA to organise something next year. 
 
No conflict of interest or interference with any other events. 
 
The handicap issue is really another topic altogether. 
 
 
 
 

Hi

I am meeting up with Magnus tonight to chat through which events we want to attend.

Deffo Salcombe 

Hi

I am meeting up with Magnus tonight to chat through which events we want to attend.

Deffo Salcombe 

Hi Gareth,
 
Where are you based? - are you thinking of coming to Wembley and/or Hamble in March?
 
Dave
 

Hi

I think March might be to early for us. We need to do a bit of sailing first. 

As the click though email is no longer.
 
If anyone wants to contact me 'off forum' email address is: annamali2  [ at ]   aol.com

Looks like whitstable SC are giving the old boat fleet a push guys... Great sailing club and a lovely spot for a summer holiday...