MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Prime of life boats...!

This is a carry on from the discussion Dougal started on the pure magic Facebook page..

The aim being to encourage a few more of the "prime of life boats" to attend a number of open meetings with the view to maybe a mini series and trophy at the end as per the De May series but newer boats.

I think Dougal can explain his definition of "Prime of Life" better than me but I would say it is 70s up to mid 90s maybe adding a few recent wooden modern boats too???


https://m.facebook.com/MerlinRocketBook/photos/a.295829153867441.67634.295824223867934/605798452870508/?type=1&source=46


The boats of this ilk are a cheap way into a fantastic class, most are well built and have survived the neglect they suffered since the day when they were the grandprix boats on the circuit.

Many are still raced competitively on the circuit, many more are raced at club level...

All are much loved possessions, it would be great to see more out racing at open meetings.



What are your thoughts guys...????


Posted: 19/08/2014 17:45:15
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC

Can I just add a few more details in on how this discussion came about. I had thought, like I am sure many of us, that the big and exciting part of the book would be the change from narrow to wide hulls, with alloy sticks and terylene sails leading on to the quadrilateral shaped main. I was so wrong! If there is an real 'pot boiler' element to the book it is the early Holt Boats, the late Morrisons, then the rig changes that pretty much swept through the class in little more than a season. I was reminded of this seeing several boats that figure significantly in this chapter at Salcombe recently, boats such as Paranoia and Thin Ice, which had recently beautifully redecked by Laurie S.

NOTE; John Bell, if you read this, please can the book have a copy of the picture you have of Thin Ice on the wall in your downstairs loo!!!

 At  the same time, there seemed to be a great deal of activity going on - Miles James saving Steppenwolf up in Abersoch, Gareth doing a concours restoration on Dream Machine, Tim B with 'Blow-U', Love over Gold is out there, Once Bitten, if you're a true lightweight DangerBat is up for grabs and many more, including a number of boats at various solent based clubs. Andy is doing something already north of the border, so there is the 'demand there'
 
So - all this prompted me to  make the fateful comment that if the book is to  achieve anything - I just hope it brings about a new awareness of a big chunk of merlin history and maybe brings some of them together in a more practical and rewarding environment than at present!
 
 
 


Posted: 19/08/2014 19:16:28
By: Dougal
Cheers Dougal

I think you are on to a great idea. It would be great to see these boats on the circuit, give Magnus and me some boats to pace ourselves with...

I sent Jan "thin ice" an email pleading him to make it down from the midlands to Lymington in September. I know miles has other pre-arranged commitments...!

I hope a few more woodies come along.


Posted: 19/08/2014 22:17:33
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
To add to the mix. I spoke to Dougal and several others at Salcombe plus Martin Hunter and Richard Pausley at Looe. Next year's Inlands will be at Draycott Water, mid Oct. If you can decide on a definition and bring say 10 boats, I am sure we would be delighted to put you in the racing sched and award glassware. Angela and I will be acting as Inlands Coordinators - give me a txt or email.


Posted: 20/08/2014 08:26:54
By:
I think there is a definite gap in the market for those of us who perhaps aren't so interested in the De May series,  but can't afford to buy and run a newer boat (for whatever reason) to take to the big events. Salcombe is of course the exception and one or two similar old-boat-friendly events would be welcome. Cheers, Dave


Posted: 20/08/2014 09:17:46
By: DaveC
Jan Holland is trying to get thin ice repaired by Laurie smart in time for the Lymington Open/Barts Bash on the 20th if September.

Anyone else able to bring a wooden boat to swell the fleet???


Posted: 20/08/2014 10:56:03
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Heaven Sent is still around, as am I, though not managing as many opens as I did.  We had a few breakages at Salcombe (this is what happens when you are not sailing an old boat very often!) which are now all repaired.  I am hoping to do one of the big open meetings in September/October.  Perhaps Dougal would like a shot of Heaven Sent's massive transom for the archive?

 

Andrew


Posted: 20/08/2014 11:24:13
By:

Andrew..... I don't think I have ever  refused a picture of a lovely rear end, how beamy it may be. So the answer to the question is YES PLEASE! In the meantime, I am expecting/ awaiting with some real anticipation a great shot that I know exists of Mr Hind (Senior) sailing  a Proctor VI with a young Bob Hoare - that one is a must for the book!

 In the meantime, I'll be putting up a picture as another of the 'name that boat' series...... the perfect antidote to post nationals mid week ennui.......... so watch this space.

 


Posted: 20/08/2014 11:40:41
By: Dougal
Andrew please come to the Lymington open meeting. September 20-21.

Coincides with Barts Bash so a great cause.

Jan Hollands Thin ice and Andrew Fiests Hakuna Matata will hopefully be there too post Salcome injuries.

Could be a great opportunity to chat about which opens we can target for next year..


Posted: 20/08/2014 12:47:19
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
I might be able to crew you again, Andrew! Must make my mind up whether to do Barts Bash or one day of the Bosham Classic Revival....


Posted: 20/08/2014 12:50:20
By:
Great mags...!



Posted: 20/08/2014 13:04:02
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Will sort out my diary when back at home!  Mags, it will depend on whether I can get the boat down there without holing a piston in the MG, seem to remember some rather unfortunate attempts to go sailing together in the past!!!


Posted: 20/08/2014 14:23:55
By:
I am a jinx, yes. Might be unable to make it anyway. Don't let the forum bully you into attending!


Posted: 20/08/2014 14:44:27
By:
We can help find good crews if anyone needs..!

Lou Johnson is proposing a prize for Prime Of Life/Wooden boats for the Lymington Town open, if I can get enough to confirm...



Posted: 20/08/2014 20:29:00
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC

I|'d love to join a 'prime of life' circuit, assuming a 1999 LS Make it So (3571) is not considered too new!

Also happy to offer sponsorship for a 'prime of life' training event (I tried to organise one at WPNSA this year but not enough interest in what was a markedly chilly early March!) and I am happy to help arrange an event and underwrite Tricky Dicky's costs is he is happy to coach etc.

There seem to be quite a lot of clubs/boats in the Lyme Regis to HISC corridor so perhaps we could look to piggy back the ST events along that axis in some way next year? 
 


Posted: 20/08/2014 20:40:10
By:
As Gareth mentioned earlier I'm away on the Lymington dates, otherwise Steppenwolf would be enroute. She qualifies as a Prime of Life so I think it's fair to say 'Make it So' does: she's wood and only 29 boats younger than 'the Wolf' at 3542.
Should imagine BAU also qualifies. 
 


Posted: 20/08/2014 21:25:18
By: Miles

Without want to give too much of the game away(or at least the  details behind the story - else you'll not want to buy the book) this debate is a good 20 years old  and then a tad more. I know that because the RS 400 celebrates their 20th this year and at the time, there was nothing more than rumours of a new Phil Morrison boat 'out there'!

But even then, the Class Committee were worried that  the apparent 'step function' that the CT design represented was potentially damaging to the Class. Now at that time, trials were being held of a fully battened main and a somewhat strange spinnaker system that was something of a hybrid between a conventional kite and an asymmetric. Once again, at the AGM, topics ranged from smooth skins to reduced weight.......(you'll love some of the descriptions of the Trials.....as the saying goes, "be careful what you wish for"!!)

 Then the RYA complicated matters further, by chopping the MR PY from 109 to 107 (this was on the intermediate PY numbering system), so suddenly, all those pre-CT boats found that they'd suddenly got a whole lot quicker. The suggestion from the Class Committee was to create an arbitrary divide, which was set at 3400 (which just happened to be Dick Batt's Championship winning Winder special Dangerbat) but this just created more problems than it solved. For example, 3430, 'Fat Pig' was a home built NSM IV that was finished late, so ended up on the 'new side' of the line and somehow quicker than 3396 - an identical NSM IV!!
 
Looking at the overall history and then documenting it, puts the writer in a tricky position, for it is not my place to pass comment or be judgemental. Instead, you research and record - end off. But were I to be asked, I would have to say that it is at this point in time that the Class went down a different route. It was lucky to have then (as now) a hard working Committee that are aware of the need to 'do what has to be done' - and back then, facing boats such as the ISO and then the RS 400, the Merlin could well have been pushed out to the margins. The fact that it had a couple of rocky years and then came back stronger than ever is a testament to some great stewardship. BUT - the fact remains that from that point on (we're talking early 1990s) there was this divide created and it is not an exaggeration to say that the older boats had to be almost 'cast adrift' for the new boats to prosper - which they did and continue to do so.
 
But, if you look at AGM minutes and Committee Reports back then, it is clear that these changes were recognised, as was the fact that a lot of boats would no longer have their natural place in the pecking order. Funnily enough, it was about the same time that the real classic scene was taking off - so at either end of the merlin rocket scale, you had a lot of activity. It was the middle ground that suffered the most, and in many ways, still does today. 
 
There is a great deal of untapped potential for these boats out there, but I would respectfully suggest that a very careful rethink is needed, so as to create an environment that is accessible to all - with a reasonable levelling of the playing field. Of course it is not going to be perfect, for the minute you start to involve any form of handicapping system, you're bound to find 'exceptions to the rules', But if the Class were happy to have a 2 tier fleet back in 1992, why not a two, three or four tier system now? From Hakuna Matata to Myth Isle, there should be a place for all!
 
Dougal 


Posted: 20/08/2014 21:45:31
By: Dougal
I am progressing well. 

Who else is coming on down to Lymington with a prime of life boat..????


Posted: 28/08/2014 12:52:34
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Will almost certainly do at least one day with Heaven Sent


Posted: 28/08/2014 16:26:13
By:
That's great news... Get me through the hard yards at the end 


Posted: 29/08/2014 00:34:19
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
3506 Smartypants, with luck, both days


Posted: 29/08/2014 10:42:49
By:
Fantastic...!

If you guys have any mates who might be keen to come down with more wooden boats we would really love to see them.

Lou Johnson has helped the club prep a great weekend with entertainment and everything...


Posted: 31/08/2014 01:13:32
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
3571 Hakuna Matata should be in Lymington for Bart's Bash.


Posted: 01/09/2014 17:47:40
By:
 The Bosham Classic Revival fast fleet last weekend was won by Tim Male from Blithfield with 3339 The Flame, very much in the Prime of Life.


Posted: 10/09/2014 06:25:00
By:
Great news and hoping for a good turn out of prime of life boats at Lymington next week...


Posted: 10/09/2014 22:19:43
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Without wishing to steal Dougal's thunder, I think the way the class decides to address the "Prime of Life" issue is critical. We have boat after boat appearing on ebay, Apollo duck, and the club website for less than break up value. Want a full carbon kit and road/trolley trailor for less than new, it's out there, you just have to have the heart to bin the boat and take what you want.
This is a very poor state of affairs and should have been addressed years ago.
The bulk of the class, I believe is out of class, uncompetitive with anything new, Tales onward and not really congruent with the paradigm of the De May series.
So, the bulk of the existing boats of the class in the yearbook, boats that were fiercely competitive 20, 30, 40, years ago are just deemed to be irrelevant, struggle to get a sensible handicap at club basis, cost a bit to keep up to scratch, probably struggle to get crew as well, so is it surprising there are beautiful boats on this website for next to nothing. This is the world of of ooh, isn't it lovely( read wooden boat) or yeah. I used to have one of those, isn't expensive to look after. Answer, yes, but I love it. And out there you battle with rs200s and scorpions for line honours,
But you know the boat is has so much more finesse and elegance than those, even when you lose.

So, Going to silver tiller events and similar is seen as futile by owners of these boats, but I suspect they would toy with the idea of meeting like minded lovers of mid life Merlins
now and then for some not too serious racing. Might stave off a few Viking burials ? And up the value of these wonderful boats by providing an arena in which they could perform.
We know where they are, it's all in the year book so how about some regional "meets" to test the idea, with targeted emails to all that could be cajoled into putting the boat on the trailor ? Whether it just turns into a mutual boat admiration society or a viable third way racing circuit, as Disraeli famously said, "Something has to be done "
All best Rick


Posted: 10/09/2014 22:45:45
By: Rick Knapp
Rick, that is exactly what Dougal, Gareth, Andy, and  Myself are wanting to do. Drum up some enthusiasm to travel with a wooden POL boat. If we can get enough interest we could arrange meetings at good sailing locations, perhaps a circuit however small, Scotland, Wales, The South, East and Midlands. If it were only a few meetings a year of wooden boats they would once again become the centre of admiration.  Who can resist a wooden Merlin? 
 
There are lovely pieces of craftsmanship out there with nothing to race against on equal terms. Let's get them together.
 
Steppenwolf is IN. 
 
I'm pretty sure we can arrange trophies to race for.  I'll even provide one 'The Sea Challenge Trophy for Prime of Life Wooden Merlin Rockets'. 


Posted: 11/09/2014 00:10:05
By: Miles
I am certainly thinking about doing some more events in the future with Panatella, I may even try and qualify for the ST next year. I think the older boats are quite competitive up to about 12 kts provided there isn't too much 3-sail reaching/planing involved. The problem is often that older sails and kit go with older boats (with some obvious exceptions!). What I personally like is the opprtunity to race with/against the modern boats, I wouldn't be keen on separate events or separate starts, some recogition would be nice however.
 
Cheers, Dave


Posted: 11/09/2014 10:13:49
By: DaveC

Rick,

I'd worry not about thunder stealing, for most of what I've tried to do (on this and on some of the other more controversial threads) is give the historical perspective.

So - here goes (again!). As a Class, the Merlin Rockets should be so proud of their position. More than 40 years ago they were discussing  the concept of what would, a long time later, become the backbone of the much wider classic scene. The concern back then was that the MROA had to be mindful of ignoring all those members who had boats that were no longer state of the art. At AGMs and Class Committee meetings since the early 1970s this has been a topic that bubbled up with amazing regularity. So, now fast forward to the early 1990s. The RYA had, as already discussed, just chopped the MR handicap from 109 to 107 and was expected to make further changes. This created real problems for the older boats, (not to mention the older boats still) who has suddenly become 75 seconds in the hour faster. So, the notion was to take DangerBat - 3400 as the dividing line - anything older could stay on 109 BUT, what was otherwise a great idea then started to bog down. Put simply, the class had bigger issues to address!
 
New boat registrations had slumped to (at times) single figures and for all those who had got their fingers burnt, when paying top dollar for a new NSM IV, only to find what they really wanted was a Tales, there was the wonderful new RS 400 that took the problem away AND carried weight (at a time when the successful all up helm/crew weight  in the Merlin had plummeted). But, if you go back to the records of that troubled time, one has to salute the great efforts the Committee made to 're-align' the direction that the Class would take, with the success of the boat today being a direct result of some very far-sighted decision making back then.
 
Now, by a co-incidence, the 'classic' scene was equally taking off and in those places where some of the old narrow boats are getting the benefit of what might now be called 'positive discrimination', such as the waters of the Thames, the old boats got a whole new lease of life. The efforts made by Mervyn Allen, Martin Hunter, Laurie Smart, Ben Marshall and others have seen the emergence of the beautifully restored old boats - as you say, who can resist drooling over some of the latest additions to the fleet for they are simply superb.
 
So now you have the modern fleet - plus the really, really old boats, still with cotton sails, then the river boats - and a huge yawning gap in the middle that is not being addressed (even though numerically, it is the largest constituent part of the total MR fleet). Yet this chunk of Merlin heritage is still too large and too diverse to treat as one - for it ranges from some very interesting and important 'newer old boats' right up to those that are 'older new boats' - too new to be a classic, too old to be out there mixing it with the main fleet. These are the 'prime of life' boats that , with luck, will see a great outing at Lymington the week after next. But - at the same time that Dream Machine, The Flame, Thin Ice and others are drawing the admiring looks, spare a thought for the boats that pre-date them. In my search for pictures, I have found a number of boats, some with almost 'iconic' status, stored away in what is Smart/Rowsell 'mint condition', yet with little incentive for them to come out of retirement.
 
At Salcombe, Ian McKenzie told me how keen he was to get a turn out of older boats for the Inlands next year. But when I asked him how they would create the 'incentive' for these old boats to  get dusted off. Ian's answer was probably indicative of how many at the AGM would have answered - you shouldn't need any extra incentive to come and sail a Merlin.
 
And sadly, therein lays the crux of the problem - for the mainstream of the class today, I just do not think this is a topic that will get people enthused sufficiently to make the changes needed. So, DIY may well be the answer.
If proof of this point is needed, witness my requests for pictures over the last few days: I post them onto the main forum string so that everyone sees them, only for them to get promptly moved to the Class History string, where their exposure is minimised. Why this happens I do not know, for I have not had any contact on the subject. But if a reasonable request, for pictures and information, that should be 'class wide', can just get kicked into the long grass, then I regret I do not hold out too much hope for you guys.
 
Dougal 


Posted: 11/09/2014 10:37:24
By: Dougal
Sorry Dougal,
I did add most of the archived images to the archive section, the day after you notified them of being missing.
 
These do obviously need sorting out and linking back up to the relevant data correctly though (if there is any). 
Regards
Chunks 


Posted: 11/09/2014 10:52:32
By: Chunky

Chunky,

 Is this re my request for one of the pictures taken at the Inlands? If so, would it be possible to email it is reasonably hi res directly to me - then I can put it straight into the Ch 7 file! (which is now huge - 1/3rd of the total book is taken by just 15 years from 2000 - 2014!)

 
Many thanks
 
Dougal
 
Pure Magic, 70 years of the Merlin Rocket 


Posted: 11/09/2014 11:12:38
By: Dougal
No, it was the request to sort out the Gallery side of things.
Chunks 


Posted: 11/09/2014 12:54:26
By: Chunky
Chunks
 
Gallery is looking good.
 
Any chance you can email me the photo that this link doesn't show:
 
http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/index.asp?selection=Gallery&dphot=1673
 
It's one of Steppenwolf 3542  in 2006 
 
Thanks
Miles 


Posted: 11/09/2014 20:10:37
By: Miles
Was it this one?


Posted: 11/09/2014 21:21:37
By:

Chunky - would it be possible to have one of the dramatic pictures from the Inlands in high res for the book please? (if possible, one of the first two in the gallery). Let me know how you would like to be credited (or just as 'chunkypics' - but it will need to be okay to blow up to at least half A4 size.

 We're well into Chapter 7 now, 2000-2014, so the book is now drawing to a close.

 
many thanks,
 
Dougal - Pure Magic, 70 years of the Merlin Rocket 


Posted: 11/09/2014 22:28:37
By: Dougal
I'll have a look tomorrow


Posted: 11/09/2014 23:07:51
By: Chunky
Thanks, yes that was the photo.
Miles 


Posted: 12/09/2014 09:36:09
By: Miles
The archive images should now appear correctly when they are clicked on.


Posted: 12/09/2014 10:38:44
By: Chunky
Archive images look great


Posted: 12/09/2014 18:00:58
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
SAVE THE DATE. OCTOBER 26th at CHEW VALLEY LAKE !!!!
Dougal, you did say it may be down to a bit of DIY , so how about this ?
On October 26th there is not only a Silver Tiller at Blithfield, but also the somewhat less well known Annual Visitors Day at Chew Valley Lake and the racers at the club would love to welcome as many midlife and other Merlins as we can muster. There will be a good length handicap in the morning and a full length pursuit in the afternoon, with trophies to win, and a NOR will be published soon, I hope.
There should be no problem with Merlins turning up on the Saturday for an exploratory sail and remaining overnight. The only restriction is no dogs. This is an Open Meeting in all but name and has been hijacked by the Phantoms in the past, so there are precedents !

So can I propose we make this be the Inaugural Meeting of
the Midlife Merlins aka Prime of Lifers ( Southern section ) ???


Posted: 13/09/2014 10:58:24
By: Rick Knapp
I will try my best to get there so long as the middle sea race finishes early


Posted: 13/09/2014 16:06:54
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC

Any pre-1985 Merlins are welcome at cvrda (Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association) events. The older boats are regular attenders but we'd like to get more of the 70s and 80s ones out as well.

Next event is Banbury on 27th September http://www.cvrda.org
 



Posted: 16/09/2014 20:11:03
By:
Pat the kind point of this thread is to try and find a middle ground between the two fleets..


Posted: 17/09/2014 00:41:21
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Is the entry fee for Lymington still £33 if you just do Sunday?


Posted: 19/09/2014 08:50:20
By: DaveC
You don't need separate events for Prime of Life (Or for that matter mature) boats - just turn up in numbers to a standard ST.
 
You'll be made welcome and if numbers warrant it you could have separate results extracted for a mini series - if of course thats what you want.
 
The trouble is without support and reasonable numbers nothing will happen, and without something in place no-one will go - it's a chicken and egg situation. Someone needs to organise a few raids on existing events to kick something off.


Posted: 21/09/2014 21:13:31
By: Chris Martin
It's an interesting discussion but I'm feeling slightly left out.  Much mention of wooden Merlins etc, but I own a first-generation Canterbury Tales (3488, the late Guy Wood's boat 'Carrera'). She has a plastic hull with wooden deck and needs work doing (like me, I'm recovering from a broken achilles tendon) but when I eventually get her onto the water who can I race against other than other club boats? She won't be competitive with the front of the fleet, which is OK 'cos I won't be either - but would she qualify as 'Prime of Life'?  Bear in mind that there are quite a few plastic-hulled NSM's, both 1 and 2, still about and going round in ever-decreasing circles on their local duckponds too and they might like to join in as well.


Posted: 21/09/2014 23:13:37
By: Derik Palmer
I think 3488 qualifies as a mature boat, and there is no reason whatsoever why you or the guys with Omega NSMs should feel left out. You would be made more than welcome at a Silver Tiller event. 
 
As a suggestion, why don't you guys amongst yourselves nominate three events next year (I'd suggest Chichester, Rutland and Blithfield as being spread around and with the infrastructure to cope with a large turnout) to form a mini old boats series. 3 events, two to count, same start line no handicaps at this stage. See what happens.
 
If it's a success look to double it up in 2016. 
 
If you use existing events we get more Merlins sailing at the same venues which looks good for us both as a class and makes us a very desirable class to run open meetings for. I don't think we want to dilute ourselves any more than we already are, and i certainly don't think we should be pushing a separate series in direct competition with existing Silver Tiller events - we need to support the clubs who are good enough to have us.


Posted: 22/09/2014 08:36:27
By: Chris Martin
Chris

Lou organised a prize for Prime of life boats at Lymington this weekend. Won by Heaven Sent...!

Smartypants looked great too. I would have been there had the paint on my mast cured properly. I was assured that the hardener we used would be fine.. It's dry now but a weekend too late.

Andrew and Deeb it would be great to stay I touch and find out which opens we can all attend and give us a chance of a decent race in better looking boats.


Posted: 22/09/2014 09:05:58
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Better looking boats, I like that. See you have your photo back.
 
Steppenwolf would like to join in next year, if she can find a crew. But, she is somewhat handicapped on dates. Bank Holidays, and School Holidays are pretty much a stay at home time for her. Perhaps we could also have an informal gathering for Abersoch Dinghy week: might be able to tempt Dougal up again.
 
 


Posted: 22/09/2014 10:48:06
By: Miles

I am sure that by now, there is a big chunk of the active membership who are getting fed up with the protracted wrangles over this topic and that of the 'Vintage' boats and what is and what is not legal. They could be forgiven in thinking that this is a storm about nothing, but I would like to somehow convince them that the alternative viewpoint -that this is a fundamental issue that needs resolving, is equally valid. And it is a fundamental issue; Is the MROA there for all Merlin Rockets and their owners, or are we in a situation where all are equal, but some more equal than others.

Now for a start, I have to make clear that I am not a Prime of Life owner, actually, my situation is even worse as I own a pre POL/Mature boat, but at the same time, a boat that is not really a classic ( a 1976 registered Smokers). But, I have been sailing in POL boats this summer as 'guest' helm on the wonderful Steppenwolf - a great sailing experience. Now along with the frustration at the continuance of this thread, there have been references made out to the CVRDA, a group that is not to everyone's liking on here. But the fact remains that many of the issues we face as a class, they have had the common sense to recognise the realities and address the problems, BEFORE people start walking away. One of the issues they identified was that by just having a simplistic 'current time plus X' formula as entry criteria, that with the passing of time, the older boats just get left further behind. So, the CVRDA took a bold decision to  freeze frame the progress, so that now the entry requirement starts (and remains) at 1985 - their choice of date, arbitrary but it works. This though is important for the MR class, for the superb quality of the Winder hulls means that by just 100 days, Wild Card missed out on not only winning Lymington this weekend, but taking the Prime of Life prize too!  All of that effort to invigorate the POL boats, yet in reality they didn't stand a chance! But surely, that is not what they are trying to do. But if the winning boat also takes the POL, then to me it suggests that the criteria are not in balance. Even the  Concours prizes are out of reach - as anyone who has seen some of the superb restorations on the Thames will agree. To illustrate this point I'm enclosing a picture of a 'stunner' that was sent to me for the book. This boats looks as good now as when it left Spud's boatyard 38 years ago. Does it appear in public? No? As a platform for successful racing, forget it - about the only prize (if such a thing existed) would be the award for the  boat in the most original condition. Wow that really is a prize to have on the mantelpiece!

 
Already Savage, Charge of the Light Brigade, Coyote,  Heaven Sent and Flying Cloud qualify for the Mature Boats prize, which leaves the situation for the even older boats, in particular that big bulk of Morrison and Callaghan designs from the golden years of the 1970s - a decade that gave us nigh on 1,000 boats, as all but 'off the radar'. Go older still, a lot older, and there is a 3 man sub-committee working for the good of the boats from the first 20 years of the life of the class, but there is, to date, no activity that even considers the group of boats that is numerically 40% of the total fleet.
 
Tweaking PYs here and there is not the answer; nor is the semantics of what you call boats, be it Prime of life, Old Prime of Life, Mature, Frankly older still, Classic, then ending with Vintage. Even the arguments over the status of rebuilt boats is nothing more than a sub-plot, for their success and quality speaks volumes for their continuance.
 
What the above suggests is that the original statement, about this being fundamental issue, is the phrase that carried the greatest impact. Having been at least a decade ahead of the classic dinghy movement, the Merlin Rockets, as a Class, need to ask if they want to retain that primacy. If so, then a 'root and branch' rethink is needed about the whole of the MR scene that exists below the level of the current breed of race boats. Rather than ruling boats in or out, the aim should surely be to re-establish the notion that  the class is about ALL boats. Just thinking that somehow boats such as the one in the picture are suddenly going to start turning out to events, that the system effectively rules them out of before they've even got afloat, is not going to work
 
Yet they are all Merlins, many owned by Association members, so maybe now IS the time to accept that it is broke and that this is something that needs fixing!
 
Dougal
3025 - Riot 


Posted: 22/09/2014 14:09:48
By: Dougal
Just to clarify - Heaven Sent was there at Lymington but failed to beat a very well sailed  Smarty Pants by 7 points and 5 places - well done Dominic & Jim!  Re Prime of Life boats and attendance at opens, 2 points.  1st is that you may not win in an older boat but 20 newer boats didn't win either and still turned up.  2nd that when I bought my 1st Merlin it was a very old boat and tatty with it.  I then bought a newer one with better sails, then another...seem to have stopped doing this for the last 10 years.  But quite a bit of the fleet seem to have moved into Merlins from other classes without trading up through the fleet in the way a lot of other classes function which means the older boats do not get sailed actively on the circuit by people learning to race.  I think it's not having a prize for this or that but the worry that you will be sailing around at the back by yourself which puts people off.  If clubs encourage groups of sailors of older boats to attend so you are travelling knowing there will be someone on the water you can have a race with, would that not help?  I went to Salcombe in 1996 with a 26-year-old boat and not a lot of racing experience because my club insisted I would enjoy it and not be last, right on both counts, and I have languished in about the same bit of the fleet since  still enjoying it.


Posted: 22/09/2014 15:12:37
By:
Apologies for getting it the wrong way round guys..

Both great boats, Magnus and me were incredibly upset to not have been able to join you.


Posted: 22/09/2014 23:43:12
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
To answer Dougal, firstly i don't think anyone has any issue with the CVRDA at al other than perhaps as a group they could be a little more accepting of boats that have gone down a different path in their restoration and how they are used.
 
Re the categories of boats. Prime of life boats have been winning open meetings since the categories were put in place. They are by definition still competitive, but perhaps slightly older than someone at the cutting edge of the fleet would choose to sail.
 
Equally the 70's and 80's boats have been out on a limb since the new categories were put in place. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, it clearly is not, but this is also not a new problem.
 
What is the answer? 
 
Firstly for the owners of these boats to come sailing. This would generate interest in their boats and catalyse clubs putting something into place to encourage them.
 
The old and mature boat categories have been under discussion at association level but for something major to happen   there needs to be support for it, which is not there at the moment even for Prime of Life boats to a point.
 
I think rather then feeling ruled out the owners of the vast majority of these boats have ruled themselves out and are happy sailing around at the club. I'm not saying this is good either, but to tackle a percieved problem you need to tackle it directly. At the moment if we offered £1,000,000 for the first boat built between 1970 and 1979 i doubt whether you'd get 10 boats turn up!!
 
Prizes and categories are not going to change anything, what people want is good racing with like minded people. To get this people need to turn up. But saying all that, like the CVRDA we have to accept that there is a place for people who don't want to what we do i.e. in this case to travel and encourage them to enjoy their sailing in their own way. 


Posted: 23/09/2014 09:12:05
By: Chris Martin
The main point we're trying to make is that there are 100's of Merlins out there that are not being sailed simply because a) no others are being sailed at their club, and b) if they do race it has to be on handicap and they get hammered (even with the adjustment). 
 
These boats never could and never will sail off 990. The Silver Tiller is considered by many as being for those who can afford to travel all over the place and have the time to do so. Possibly even just for the elite. I know it isn't but it can be perceived as such.
 
If all merlins started at the same time, regardless of age, older designs will have no chance, why race a an old mini design against a modern one? No fun in that. You enter a race to win.
 
The difference in performance of today's boats and yesteryears is far greater than in '63, but I agree  in the 70's a 9b could still beat a Kipper. The 'Step function' in performance had not really appeared then.
 
Fun, that is what we are really talking about, not racing per se, the enjoyment of sailing a merlin against/with it's peers. 
 
So, as Dougal states that 40% of the class consists of these boats, can not the MROA contact them directly and ask some simple questions.
 
Would you travel to another club to race against similar aged Merlins, how often and how far would you travel, could similar category/age boats visit your club?
 
Pencil and compass on a map could then give an idea of where to suggest we have POL gatherings (note the word gatherings)
 
This is just about getting these boats on the water together.
 
I dare say, that the majority of them are unaware that this discussion even exists. 
 
At some stage Steppenwolf will meet Nianne, Seventh Heaven, and BAU et al, it will probably not be at a Silver Tiller, it will probably not be at a club event, but merely by mutual agreement of saying let's all meet at xxxx and go for a sail and admire each others boats (because they are not identical)
 
Are there any volunteers within the MROA who would like take up the mailshot challenge?


Posted: 23/09/2014 09:17:31
By: Miles
I fear that the statement about "100s of Merlins out there" isn't quite right.
 
OK, we know there are lots of boats that haven't rotted away yet, but I think there is a danger of overestimating how many owners actually want to race, and are prepared to tow to get to a new club. I am pretty sure that 25% of them don't own trailers, and their boats are stuck at a club. Another 25% owners don't race any more, and just have the occasional cruise around. Probably another 25% would be maybe interested if they could just find the time to fix up that missing pole elastic and buy a new kite halyard. When you announce a date, 10% of people will say "Oh, we're already booked to visit a friend on that day." Finally, 5% will take a look at the forecast and abandon the idea the night before.
 
I'm trying to be realistic rather than pessimistic. Even if you create the most wonderful rules/handicaps that promise a perfect scenario to owners of older boats, I think your 'market' is limited to 50 owners, spread all over the country. So any open meeting would only grow by 1 or 2 boats. It is a lot of work!
 
For the record: if I was single, and had the petrol money, I would be taking 3245 round the southern ST meetings and going to Salcombe/Inlands. I know I wouldn't win in a carbon-rig 37xx, so racing an old ally-rig boat and coming last doesn't bother me. I just want to be on the water, hopefully inching ahead of some other back-of-the-fleet mates. I suspect others feel the same way...but there are so many reasons that stop us: family, money, can't hike for toffee, no crew, no trailer, cascamite keeps turning back to powder....it's not the rules/handicap numbers which are the problem for a vast majority.


Posted: 23/09/2014 11:12:52
By:
Mags, I entirely agree. All this thread started out as was a discussion on Facebook, on how could we get those that wanted to, together, to arrange somesort of gathering.


Posted: 23/09/2014 11:34:36
By: Miles
Seems like the Prime of Life thread has been getting a bit frisky recently, anyhow this is my humble offering to do something more than just talk about it..........

I said SAVE THE DATE AND THIS IS THE EVENT !!!!

AUTUMN MERLIN GATHERING AT CHEW VALLEY LAKE SAILING CLUB, OCTOBER 26th 2014

The sailing officers of the club are more than keen to back up MY INVITATION TO ALL MERLINS, old, young , in midlife crisis or whatever to a GATHERING at CHEW VALLEY LAKE SAILING CLUB, for some racing, mutual boat admiration, banter, good food and beer.
Please help make this event a success, all you have to is turn up and have some fun and persuade some mates to come too
Any publicity, help suggestions or assistance to make this initiative a success will be more than gratefully received .

See below for the Official details published by Nick Fisher this morning, I copied off a .txt file so it may look a bit odd. "Top Club" means Top Club Trophy.
If the handicap link don't work, go to the website, thenSailing/Racing, you will find it there. Our handicapmeister Peter Rose is looking forward to the challenge !!

Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
Walley Court Road, Chew Stoke, Bristol BS40 8XN. Telephone: 01275 332194
VISITORS DAY 26th October 2014 In Aid Of The RNLI
Chew Valley Sailing Club welcomes all Visitors to come and sail in aid of the RNLI.
The morning race consists of “A” & “B” Handicap Races. (B Handicap Laser and slower Boats) Start 1100.
The afternoon race consists of a full length pursuit. Start not before 1330.
Handicaps in operation will be the Chew Valley adjusted handicaps.
http://www.chewvalleysailing.org.uk/files/results/PY%pdate%20Spring%202014.pdf
TOP CLUB. Open to all visiting clubs that have a minimum of 3 visiting boats. The best 3 boats from each club in the 2 race series will count their points and the lowest aggregate will win. Simples! The more you bring the more the chance to win!
No official entry fee but we would suggest a £5 donation to the RNLI (This would be our normal daily fee). For more information contact:
Nick Fisher Mob 0777 586 3972 Home 01934 811319 [email protected]
Sailing Secretary Chew Valley Sailing Club. Website chewvalleysailing.org.uk

I am pressing for a NOR to be published soon, but if you have any queries, please feel free to contact me, My email Is: [email protected]

Miles, Dougal, Gareth et al, I hope this is sort of event you had in mind !!!

All best,

Rick Knapp
MR 3432


Posted: 23/09/2014 15:21:06
By: Rick Knapp

I have to agree with Mags, based on my experience of trying to get some POL boats out for a FREE/Sponsored training weekend  with Tricky Dicky in March this year.  In reality only some 20 boats were ever interested and this dwindled to 2 or 3 who would actually commit so we scrubbed it.  I fear the CHEW VALLEY opportunity will go the same way and clashes with Blithfield.

 I think the answer (as suggested elsewhere) is for us to promote a few ST events and offer a POL prize at those specific events (but what defines POL and what sail numbers is yet to be agreed ?).  This needs to be done well in advance to give us a chance of organising diaries given all the other pressures. 

I think we should ask the committee to nominate the events (maybe 6 from the ST calendar scattered around the country) based on their knowledge/experience of the events and numbers.  These can then be identified on the schedule for next year as a discrete sub-category and we could put up a POL-ST prize to encourage attendance on this sub-circuit.
 
I have previously offered to buy some silverware for this annual prize and happy to do so if it is supported by the committee (so the upper limit for POL is 3571 ... OK?!).
 
I am not sure it is healthy for us to do anything that is not supported by committee... should we ask them to co-opt a willing POL member on to the committee to help out? 


Posted: 23/09/2014 17:26:29
By:
Hi All,
 
As a committee we are already thinking of ways to get more of the older boats to more events.  Particularly the Inlands and Nationals at this stage.  But I personally like the idea of a few STs being nominated whereby there is extra enthusiasm and drive to encourage increased participation, and prizes and silverware can be available.
 
I also think that there is plenty of opportunity at many venues/all venues, for older boats to beat a high proportion of newer boats.  This is clearly true on the river but also inland and at places like Salcombe.
 
Anyone who wants to speak about either being on the committee to try to drive enthusiasm, or just about ways to do so and how the committee can help are of course welcome to contact me, or anyone else on the committee.
 
In the meantime Parkstone, Ranelagh and Blithfield provide perfect opportunities for all shapes of merlins to race against each other.  The racing is available, bring your "Prime of Life" or any other boats along, race against everyone and see how you do against other similar boats at the same time.
 
Fran Gifford
Chairman MROA
email address through the committee members page
07810446377
 
(I can almost guarantee that whatever age your merlin is, there will be one of a similar age at the Ranelagh Silver Tiller (Sunday 5th October), we have them all and I am sure they will be racing).


Posted: 23/09/2014 17:54:40
By: Frances Gifford
All due respect to CVSC but....... 
 
Blithfield SC will be more than happy to see more mature Merlins at their Silver Tiller also on the 26th October. Half our club fleet falls into that category and most of them will be sailing - there will be someone to sail against wherever your aspirations are!!


Posted: 23/09/2014 20:34:43
By: Chris Martin
 Yes, me in 3555. Yes, I know she's a Winder but, trust me, I am quite capable of ensuring I am towards the back of the fleet. More importantly, as Nationals and Inlands Co-ordinator, come and talk to me about our plans for 2015, the Nationals (Whitstable 22-28 Aug) and the Inlands (17/18 Oct) and what we are doing to try and attract all of our fleet to these events. Or talk to Peter and Tracy who brought 3327 to the Nationals or Luke in 3296 who would love to see more competition of a similar vintage.
 
And I hope to be at Ranelagh too.
 
In 2011 and 2012 I campaigned a composite NSM2 in the ST and Midland Circuit so I undertand some of your concerns but can tell you that we were welcome wherever we went and always found someone to compete against, even if they ultimately beat us. We had a great time and, best of all, we were sailing with other Merlin sailors.
 
Please come and join the fun.
 
Ian Mackenzie
Nationals & Inlands Co-ordinator
 
 
 
 
 


Posted: 24/09/2014 08:28:07
By:
Further to my previous post - Hollingworth Lake Silver Tiller is on the 11th and 12th October, and is of course another perfect venue for boats of all ages.  An oversight on my part - apologies to all at Hollingworth.
 
 
Fran


Posted: 24/09/2014 14:56:26
By: Frances Gifford
And if you are around the Midlands, Saturday 18 Oct, I am sure that we would be delighted to see any of you at Chelmarsh for the final Midland Circuit event. Very scenic, hospitable and ideal for all vintages.
 
Cheers
Ian 


Posted: 24/09/2014 15:26:33
By:
I like the idea of combining in with the silver tiller events, I like the idea of an additional prize as we did at Lymington last weekend... I like the idea of a silver tiller prize for older boats and I like the idea of seeing on handicap of plus ten whether the good looking merlins are better sailed than the not so good looking plastic one design boats...?


Posted: 24/09/2014 19:44:49
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC
OK, so how was the turn-out at Chew Valley ?  Has the committee nominated any ST events for 2015?


Posted: 07/01/2015 07:16:40
By: Alan 3571
Hi Alan,
 
 
I can't answer your question about Chew Valley, but there will be news to come about a few changes to the Age Categories with a view to encouraging more boats to come out to compete for the trophies applicable for those categories.....
 
If you can just hang on until after the next committee meeting - later this month then all will be revealed.
 
Feel free to drop me an email if you have views on how you think "older boats" can be encouraged to come to more open meetings, and I will discuss our ideas with you.  That does of course apply to everyone.
 
Kind regards,
 
Fran
07810446377


Posted: 09/01/2015 17:17:56
By: Frances Gifford
Hi Fran,
 
A few thoughts..
 
We are planning to do some ST events this year in 3165. To be honest I'm not bothered about having a special prize or a handicap (that's what the De May series is for isn't it?). I like the idea of qualifying for ST and I also like the idea racing the new boats on equal terms, however, it would be nice to have something at the end of the year for the oldies. One thing the committee might like to consider is to have more one-day sea events? - a bit easier on the older boats (and crews)! Obviously the old boats are at their biggest disadvantage on the sea so it would be nice to be with some others - perhaps we could nominate two or three "old boat friendly" sea events? One solution for the two day sea events might be to have (say) 2 races on Saturday and 3 on Sunday with 3 to count and discards to break ties?
 
Cheers, Dave
 
PS I like the new forum, nice to see more activity here.
 
 


Posted: 13/01/2015 15:04:24
By: DaveC
How many POL boats might we be able to get to commit to the Inlands at Draycote if we all know it is going to be a 'gathering'... gives us plenty of time to juggle diaries etc?  How about asking them if we could turn up day before for a tuning/testing/playing/admiring session ?  


Posted: 13/01/2015 20:59:40
By: Alan3571
Steppenwolf provisionally


Posted: 13/01/2015 23:13:24
By: Miles
Dave,
 
What is not clear on the website is that while most sea event is are two days, some of them are Sunday results only for the ST. From memory, and this is not official Brightlingsea (I think)and Whitstable (definitely) fall into this band, Parkstone is a one day sea event on the south coast and Blackpool and Fleetwood up north.
 
This needs to be addressed ASAP 


Posted: 14/01/2015 08:14:41
By: Chris Martin
Hi Chris, Alan,
Thanks for pointing that out, I was not aware that some of the two day sea meetings only counted for ST points on the Sunday. This could make a difference on decideing to do a meeting or not (ie overnight accommodation etc).
 
Alan, Draycote / Inlands - good idea. One point of note is that this event requires full membership of the association for the helm. So on paper you can't loan your boat to a non-member for that event even if you and your boat are paidup and registeed members. A couple of years ago we got dispensation for my daughter who was 17 at the time to sail my boat at this event but its not usual (thanks Paul Hollis). I can see this rule is a good thing for the Nationals and Salcombe but it might be worth relaxing / making a slightly higher entry charge for non-members for the inlands? - may or may not make a difference?
 


Posted: 14/01/2015 09:11:17
By: DaveC
I think I can provisionally say that I'll do the inlands too


Posted: 24/01/2015 23:59:00
By: Gareth Griffiths NHRC

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