The nationals is fast approaching and I thought it might be a good time to open up a much discussed topic once again, which is the number and length of the races at the nationals. 

I know we have trialled having two shorter races a day a few years ago with mixed popularity, but I wonder what the current sailors in the fleet (and importantly, those who are planning to race the nationals - new to the fleet or seasoned Merlin sailors) think about the current format.

Are we happy with one long race (2 to 2 1/2 hours) per day? 
Do we feel that 2 shorter races (perhaps of 1 hour each, back to back) would be a good thing?
How about a mix of both on various days?

Personally, I would be in favour of a larger number of shorter races, and I wonder whether our current format of races is a bit 'old school'... Should we be moving with the times, as our lovely boats are?

Any thoughts/opinions would be very interesting...

hi pip welcome back from your travels with the sailing superstars.
We are very aware that some of the fleet feel we need to modernise the national champs race format with more shorter races, however there also is a hard core of one race a day fans! So to find what the fleet require i understand the committee are putting together a survey to gauge opinion for next year.
It is far to late to change this years format as it has been finalised with Tenby.
All said and done we have over 30 entries already and there is a limit this year so don't delay your entry to lovely Tenby (Nick the Fish is coming too!!!)

RE:>> (and importantly, those who are planning to race the nationals - new to the fleet or seasoned Merlin sailors) think about the current format.

Surely the people to ask are those that are NOT planning on racing at the Nationals! If you can find out from them why not, and why they find Salcombe a more appealing way of spending their holiday, then you should be able to increase the turnouts more.

Personally: I would like the variety...

Seem to remember doing 2 races a day on 2 days of the Nats last year, including getting practically blown flat in between the 2!  If we are to have 2 races the courses should be a lot shorter.  We don't seem to be having too much trouble getting to the limit on boats for recent Nationals.  The issue re Salcombe v. Nats - it's completely different sailing, different skill set.  However, the unavoidable part of sea sailing is the long sail out and back and a certain amount of waiting about for courses to be set and lines fiddled with.  From the supporters point of view means 2 fairly knackered sailors returning after 5 hours away instead of the 3hrs and back on Mill Bay beach for Salcombe.  That's not changeable however you organise the races.  Earlier starts generally don't work as the wind seldom plays ball.  My 2p worth from the back end, will get my entry in for Tenby!

If you are young,keen and fit, I am sure that multiple races are great fun providing the courses aren't too long. However, the major snag is that the leaders may finish within seconds of each other and then have to sit around waiting for the last boats to finish and then the reset of the line etc. A long race does at least give a chance for someone whose had a bad start to claw back some sort of respectability. If too much weighting is given to the starts of shorter races, I fear the Merlins will have more than a fair share of general recalls and black flag starts.

Mr X puts the case against very eloquently and he is absolutely right. Lots of short races are the invention of the devil, just be glad you are still racing a proper course to not just windward - leeward with a gate at the bottom of the course. No No No!

I agree with pip. having crewed the merlin for a good few years a 2 1/2 hour race is just to long (unless you are super fit).
We have to remember there are crews of all ages and fitness levels competing and maybe if we did do 2 shorter races more people would take part.
Most of the time when i have been sailing at the nationals the race is pretty much over after the first hr or so.
Saying that im steering now not that much to do now haha!

I remember when the two-race a day format was trialled at Looe a few years ago. I think that the idea of 2 races then 1 race then 2 races etc etc was great, but felt that the two race days comprised two pretty long races. I think to do this successfully, the two races need to be short (i.e. no longer than an hour). This prevents the same level of fleet spread-out (thus cutting down the between-race waiting), as well as not making the two-day races extremely long. The overall amount of sailing on a two-race day should be equivalent to a one-race day.

Personally, the current format of the Nationals makes me less inclined to want to go. Particularly on windier days, it always feels like the fleet settles into its placing after the first part of the race, therefore the remainder is much less exciting - boats are more spread out so the scope for gaining places is less. Unfortunately, I tend not to enjoy the second half of these long races very much. The benefit of the shorter races is that the excitement remains - there are more boats around for more of the race. I appreciate the notion that in a long race the winners should always come to the top, however I feel that this format and sticking to this notion is to the detriment of those lower down the fleet. 

Perhaps the 2 race, 1 race, 2 race format of Looe might work again?

whilst I am not planning on entering the nationals any time soon (first season of dinghy racing!) it seems to me that a larger number of shorter races would give us 'mature' crews a bit more of a chance against those outrageously big and fit types who don't seem to struggle with the physical effort required to keep a boat flat for 2 hours at a time without a beer and butty break halfway round! Given the spirit of the class seeking to control the development of the class to keep older boats competitive, perhaps we should extend this to the crews too by having shorter races where guts and cunning are given a shot at winning over the six-pack brigade?

Will - the survey sounds like a great idea.  

Some good discussions so far!

Jen, I agree, the 2 races days need to make sure the races are considerably shorter.

My view from the back of the fleet is that for a big fleet you need a long first beat, or the first mark is a tangled mess at best. So if you want two short races, then you either need very few laps, which is not ideal, or more than 3 marks to make the first beat longer than the others, which also tends to imply moving the committee boat from start to finish, which is not conducive to a quick turnaround. Then again all those recalls are not conducive to a quick turnaround either.
2 90 minute races with a fast turnaround is a great days sailing, but 2 long races and 2 long periods of waiting is not so good.
Is it possible to aspire to separate start and finish boats to speed the turnaround?
Also if the points are equal, should the races be of similar length?
Just my thoughts, I can see the merits of either.

An issue with the multiple race days is if you have some sort of catastrophic failure then you lose 2 races, although I guess we would add more discards. One year ISOars ('95 I think) had a 2,1,2,3,2,1 race(s)format with a suitable race length each day depending on the number of races. Each day counted as an individual result towards the championship rather like a travelers series, with a single day discarded. It had that mix of proper full length courses and tiddly short races with a chance to screw up one of the races on the 3 race day (as you could discard one race on the 3 race day).

Lets remember that every time we have tried this almost no one has liked it and we've gone back to the old format. It seems to come round on a 5 year cycle, stimulated by new faces in the class but the outcome is always the same!

I think the reason it was not popular last time was that the races weren't any shorter on the two race days. If the wrinkles were ironed out having two race days would, as Pip says, modernise the Champs format, and as Jen says go some way to challenge the processional nature of the racing.

The difference between it working and not is all in the execution. If you make people slog round two long windy races, of course they'll think it's worse, but two shorter races might keep things more exciting and modernise the champs. The questionnaire is a great idea to gauge not just from those who do go what they think, but also those that don't and what would tempt them there.

And what about the course layout? Are we assuming its going to always be a traditional olympic style layout of triangles and sausages? What about trapezoid layout which gives a long beat and a combination of reaching and running on the downwind leg, or does it put too much emphasis on upwind performance?

The shorter the race, the more significant the start.

The fireballs had 2 races a day in their champs last year - fleet of 57 but GATE STARTS, some food for thought there.  Agree that 1st beat has to be long enough to prevent mayhem at the 1st windward mark.  The downside of the trapezoid course is the short run and so less overtaking.

If we were to go two races, as has been been said we'd have to say 45-60 minutes maximum for the lead boat and be very firm about it. The race lengths we had at hayling on sunday were good for the conditions and i'd have no problem with a nationals race day of that format, provided I don't break my mast in the first race!

However it's an inescapable fact that we have been here before at Looe 4 years ago (Where we had two 2 hour races and had we not lost two days due to high winds we'd have had a very diminished fleet on Friday)and also at least once before that (Tenby 2000?) in my memory and the format has not proved popular.

There's plus points to both, but the entry has been full for the last couple of years and looks good this year.

If the champs entry is full, why do we perceive a problem?

45 mins for a race?

Therefore with Triangle, sausage, triangle its going to be 15 mins a round, so a 7-9 min beat, hardly worth getting on the plane for the reaches and so the designs will maybe change? 

Inspire some new boats then.

If there is sufficient interest in short race series, why not try it.  Perhaps over a Bank Holiday weekend, have three days and three races each day.  Inland or Sea, but using an Olympic Course.  Could but the National Short Course Champs..

At the risk of throwing something else into the mix, if running 2 races a trapezoid course works well, the reasons being that it still provides the same number of beats reaches and runs but not necessarily in the same order, however finishing on the final reach means that the commitee never have to move the boat (unless the wind shifts) and any second race start then commences much quicker, just need 4 marks not 3.

This is not a preference either way but a point of interest

Interesting debate, for my tuppence worth, and I am a great fan of the one long race format, the Merlin is currently enjoying a rejuvenation and holds not one but two of the largest week long single class regattas in the country. There is clearly no need to follow the herd, the format has stood the test of time, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I have no objection to moving forward, but think very hard before you blink. 

j

Hi, 

I helped out with the last Looe champs. We tweaked the usual format and held a couple of 2 race days (which turned out a little longer than we had in mind + lots of breeze). I would think hard about it again. There are pros and cons. You have to really consider the whole fleet. If you do it, I think the races do need to be shorter than at Looe - especially with the usual starting time spend and efforts. 

(+ Point  to note: Watch out for abuse in the Looe SC Loos by some very tired and grumpy sailors. I was got badly one night and I still sometimes wake up screaming in my sleep Mr J!)   

A

>Watch out for abuse in the Looe SC Loos by some very tired and grumpy sailors. I was got badly one night and I still sometimes wake up screaming in my sleep Mr J!) 

This is WAY too much information, especially on a public forum accessible to minors.

Perhaps worth remembering that the "modern" short race format was invented to make sailing more televisual for the Olympics. I would submit whatever the class or ages one race per day is right unless extras are needed to replace lost days and the fatigue factor is the same for all. It is after all a Championship!