OK, light the touch paper ....

Independently, Ben Archer and I have proposed a Rule Change for the AGM to make bilge keels optional. Both proposals are in & seconded, in accordance with the MROA rules and hence will make the AGM agenda. We are currently discussing which of us pulls back (but it really doesn't matter, as the two proposals are similar), but to have two very similar proposals, independently submitted, must be a sign!

So two years ago, when this blew up, the Class voted in a new set of Rules. We are proposing to keep these, but just add "may" and "if fitted" in the appropriate places. We took a straw poll at that AGM and there was unanimous support for this, well, time to support it for real! A 75% majority of the attending members (minimum 40 required) will be needed at the AGM to make this happen.

Open forum, as always, and more than willing to engage in sensible debate.

See you at Hayling!!

Andy

what are the pro's and con's of this

Good question Rob.  I would also like to know how easy it would be to modify existing wood and plastic boats.

I think it means we all have to modify our boats...

To get my vote ill want to see a proper analysis of what it'll do and why it'll improve my experience of sailing a merlin. I realise that the original purpose of bilge keels is long superceeded but they do stiffen the floor and they must do something under the water  otherwise we wouldn't have had the hoo ha two years ago. 

So lets see some good reasons for taking them off, not just because we can.

For me, they pose a similar argument to the handles that all boats used to have on their decks. They look terrible, they make people in other fleets laugh but they serve less purpose than said handles. I can't think why our cutting edge racing machine wants or needs them, they certainly don't add to the character like the clinker effect and all seem to have morphed into the same blob shape anyway. If they reduce performance then we need to consider costs for people to update but i would have thought that would be less than lengthening our carbon spinnaker poles.

Nobody laughs at my handles! (not to my face anyway)
Maybe we could make planks optional next; they're much funnier than either bilge keels or handles...

Anyway, merlins are not cutting edge racing machines; they are cutting edge design applied within a set of defined rules.

I have no objection to this; makes sense. Just realign the sense of perspective and we're there!

They will of course have an effect on the flow of water under the boat and will increase drag and turbulent flow after they have ended.  It will also be true that the strength and possibly even the longitudinal stiffness of the hull might be increased slightly by their presence.

It is also true that the modern bilge keels are nicely shaped to try and reduce this drag as much as possible.

Realisitcally, I can't seem their removal having a particularly big effect on boat performance especially given the clinker shape also effecting the flow in a smiliar area.

I would suggest that the boat builders are the best people to consult to get a better idea of the pros versus the cons.  If structural durability is reduced by removing them then it is probably not wise...?

Anyway, that is my gut feeling as an Aerospace Engineer (more just stating the obvious facts I know....)

Hi Andy

I'm afraid I don't see any clear reason to change the rules as they stand.  If you really don't like the standard Winder / EZ Roller blister profile bilge keel, you could change to the Nick Turner super faired version as still fitted to Djelibeybi and Highlander.

IMHO Nick's version is by far the most elegant approach and at first glance it does look like the keel has been removed.  However, on reflection since my own experiment with Djelibeybi, I can't say there was any noticeable performance benefit.  Neither does Nick appear to be any quicker (or slower!) with Highlander at SYC than boats with the standard bilge keel profile. 

If I was ordering a new boat I might be tempted to ask to have the Nick Turner version bilge keels fitted, but given the minimal (if any) difference I feel it makes, I have no desire to change / remove the standard ones fitted to the Winder I am now sailing.

I think this will potentially make the majority of boats obsolete for not much gain.
Just enough gain for people to feel they are  not quite competitive.
As I understand it, the keels on my Winder are integral to the moulding, so not trivial to remove.
On a wooden boat they must add significant stiffness, so perhaps unwise to remove.
Have the people proposing this considered joining their like-minded brethren in the MRX fleet?
Isn't that the logical end point of this way of thinking?
The size of that fleet gives a clue as to what happens if you try to move 'forwards' leaving the fleet behind.

For what it's worth, I also feel the 'fairings' on the bottoms of some boats do not meet any reasonable definition of 'bilge keel' or 'rubbing strake'.

do they still serve a purpose...yes. two boats i repaired last year had been run up launching ramps..both suffered damage to the bilge keels and saved the plank lands...doesnt take much to wipe out 6mm....mine are staying on..12s have decided its a good idea to shave them off cold moulded hulls,ive painted three in the last six months all have started to delamnate where the bige keels were...suggesting they do have some structural bearing on the hull....

Looks like no significant advantage but potential to reduce value and increase repair costs - not looking good as a proposal.  Is this about providing a way for people with time/money to tinker with their boats??  Perhaps this is what a development class is but is it right for the current times???

What would be the greater effect  reduced drag or reduced directional stability?

So currently we all have these (out of sight most of the time unless you are upside down). We then all modify our boats or pay someone else to remove them. Net result is level playing field again, no real change to the boats or racing and fewer pennies in the piggy bank. If it ain't broke....

I think that what Andy says in the title "proposal to make them optional" is the key here. If you want them, keep them, but if you don't want them you don't have to have them. They are a relic from days gone by after all, used when we didn't have launching trolleys, and we had handles as well. The fuss two years ago was because the rule didn't define the dimensions as it stood, because when the rule was written, no-one had the vision to use them as an aid to performance. Now that loophole has been closed, lets set those of us who don't want them free...

I've taken some photos which ill send to mags of the bottom of new winder. A point worth bearing in mind is that the post mk2 winders bilge keel arrangment significantly widens the bottom plank and potentially the planing surface underneath. When I had 3583 altered it made a significant difference off wind especially two sail reaching which I attributed to the bilge keels rather than the new bow though its probably a combination of both. Just my experience 

I appreciate its optional rather than they must be removed but all this needs to be properly understood before people can make an informed choice.

I doubt if removing bilge keels will make a jot of difference to the performance. If it doesn't, what's the point? - and if it does, then we'll all have to get the surgery done. And we will have to get our boats reweighed (they will be lighter, so correctors will need to be adjusted) and re-certificated.

Some years, I ask a merlin builder why he had extended his keels.His reply was, that it made the boat more stable on the run.

Excellent debate, thank you all for posting under traceable identities.

As Ben mentioned this is all about choice. By making the BKs optional, we are not affecting anyones boats, but we give people another option. We are not a one design and tinkering in your garage is a part of the pleasure of sailing in this class.

We have had the example of the lifting handles as something that has past its sell by date. Yes, they are fine and in keeping on #36, but would #3751 look as georgeous if she had elegantly and expensive carbon fibre lifting handles? Thats probably where we would be if they were mandatory fit; another £1K onto the boat price.

OK, let's review the comments so far:

DH, Phil, are you really suggesting that we should be designing for the situation where someone sails up a ramp? We aren't sailing beach cats here. Solos have keel bands on their chines for this purpose. Not suggesting that. People pulled their boats onto the sand at Salcombe this year, I decided not too and sailed around the estuary. Choice. Would they have pulled them up the beach if they did not have BKs, who knows.

DH (part II) - my BKs are foam + balsa. 2 years down the line, no hollows, knocks or anything when we have inspected them a couple of time this year. You can damage a boat pulling her onto the trolley if you are not careful. I choose to get out of the boat early when coming ashore and stay in deeper water until the trolley arrives. This is usually a cold choice!

FBS - directional stability will be increased and drag will be reduced, as the water flow can come down the planks without getting distorted by the bump.

Chris I - I am somewhat offended by the intimation here. The MRX fleet can do their own thing. I sail a Merlin Rocket and love both the boat and the class. We are not talking about changing the clinker hulls, or anything else. We are asking to be allowed to be able to choose to remove our bilge keels and not put them back.

Keith - depending upon the construction, the BKs might just get to 1kg (mine are foam & balsa so would be somewhat less than this). Probably well within the fluctuations due to ambient drying of the hulls. Everyone got reweighed when they put one string systems in since the weight of forestays, shrouds, etc. are now included in the hull weight?

Chris M - happy to cover the boat with filler to change the shape? Interesting.

JC - taking the BKs off BAU took me about an hour with a plane. Refairing and painting took longer of course. Trying to fair a wooden hull with the bumps in the way is a real pain. Plastic boats have no need for repainting of course and are fair out of the mould. 

Dave L - I don't want to replace my completely faired out BKs on BAU (remember I have the exemption that means I have a boat that no-one else can have!), I want to remove them. Yes, if it ain't broke don't fix it, but then would we all be better off in Smokers, NSMs, or Tales? I am not forcing anyone to change their boats, but giving people an option to make the choice.

If you want to improve performance, don't worry about whether your boat (or any other) has BKs or not. Spend the money on some training, more time in the boat, or studying the wind patterns. Making a poor start, missing shifts or capsizing will make far more difference to performance than whether someone has planed off their bilge keels. But for me, about to repaint the bottom of my boat, it will make it far easier if they are not there, I can fair the hull so that it is as true as a Winder and I can get a finish that I am happy with, without the silly bumps that serve no purpose.

To all, I appreciate that the main issue here is that the Winder boats have the BKs moulded into the hull. So yes, in this instance, the BKs contribute to the stiffness as the plank is effectively 20mm thick in this area. No other boat has this advantage. Removing the BK from a Winder would cut through the outer hull skin and would be an expensive mod, IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO IT.

If you are now worried about the removal of the BK contribution to structures, then perhaps you could have chosen to put another layer of glass fibre in the hull bottom rather than choosing 20kg + of lead.

We are all playing with rope launch poles, musketeer systems and an miriad of other gadgets and toys. I hanker after a hatchet centreboard system, but can't afford it, so I have chosen to save for it. We all throw money at these toys without questioning it, and in some sense blindly following the crowd. All choice.

Will removing the BKs on BAU suddenly turn me into a front of the fleet sailor? Nope. Will it devalue those Winder boats that don't modify, nope, people will hanker after them for ages yet.

We had a similar discussion about the tape drive sails two years ago (remember that?). We, as a class, decided to allow them. Some had reservations that their brand new sails would be immediately obselete. How many people use tape drive now? Taxi isn't, Jon Gorringe isn't, Jon Turner isn't. Still it is there as an option if people choose to use it. Choice. You can still choose dacron, cotton or other materials; 3DL or D4 or ODL06 even. We do not appear to be having the debate on whether choice should be restricted here.

Why do I sail a wooden Merlin, when I know there is an inherent advantage to sail a Winder hull? I choose too because I love the fact that I sail the prettiest boat in the fleet (direct quote from Dave Hayes here, before I get shouted at!).

It is interesting that in the two years since we last talked about this, the arguments against are exactly the same. The arguments for are the same too.

We can make a choice at the AGM. Last time about 60 members of the MROA put their hands up to support this. We'll see what the attendees at this years AGM want to do.

See you at Hayling.

I'm sorry if you find my comment offensive, but what you are doing is proposing fundamental change to the class rules, where other changes such as different sail construction are much more about interpreting the rules in the light of newer technology.
Bilge keels have always been a source of drag. 
The Winder boats were designed to make a good job of building a Merlin in the rules of the day, to say they should have foreseen radical changes and made the rubbing strakes detachable is frankly absurd. Perhaps they should have made the plank lands detachable too? I'm not sure the rules actually allow the layup to be heavier in one area in this way either? 

If this goes through, people will modify Winder hulls with varying degrees of integrity, a few will have problems and the reputation of the class will suffer. The class will go from having a pool of about 150 or 200 (whatever)  boats that are sound propositions and capable of being totally competitive to a very much smaller number.
In my view, this makes even less sense than reducing the minimum weight.

As for a wooden boat, if you go down this route, you'd better get a trailer with soft suspension, that bit of wood probably does a lot in terms of stiffening the hull and feeding the bumps from towing into the hull structure. Of course you could replace it with a structural member inside the hull.

andy....my reply was to the question of do they have a purpose,we all have accidents thats how the damage happened to both boats,crews jumped out in plenty of time  ,either too deep or slipped, i dont think anyone sails up launching areas on purpose any more...the keels also support one of the longest scarph joints in the hull on the widest plank ...not so critical on the foam boats..but worth taking into consideration...

Andy
Nicely summed up thankyou...but if it is not a modifacation that is going to move you up the fleet why do you want the option of doing it? 
Are you not just going the the long way around to trying to smooth out the bottom four planks? 
As we now have Jellyfish, Wicked and Shabazzle out there on the circuit all with bilge keels why do we need to rip the keels off? surely it is more intresting to see if these different shaped hulls in the hands of top sailors over the course of three or four seasons as they mature and the crews get to know them can challenge or topple the dominant Winder boat?  
Dont forget the early Winder boats are coming on 14 years old now so thats a lot of time to tweak them without major rule changes every couple of years or so.  
How far up the fleet could Jellyfish, Wicked and Shabazzle or their sibblings be in 14 years time whilst still sailing with BK's?

Thanks for the continued responses.

DH - not sure about this as on #3626 (Driver) and #3386 (Winder), the scarphs are forward of the bilge keels. I can't comment on other boats, but both of these were stripped completely, and of course, you have seen more boats than me.

FBS - not interested in smooth skins (if I wanted that then I'd be off to the MRX class!), or four plankers, or going down that route, but reducing the time and effort in repainting my boat would be good. Remember I have an £8K boat too so am very concious about retention of residual value. JT never wanted BKs on Shabazzle or Dark Star which is why he spent so much time trying to tuck them under the land (and started the controversy two years ago). He only put them back to "old school" style as he would not be to take a mould off Shabazzle as she was originally made. He would knock them off in an instant if this Rule change is accepted. Jellyfish and Wicked are woodies, so their owners could choose to take off their BKs easily enough, or not of course.

Chris - other Winders have extra layup in the hulls (it can be specified) according to their owners. In both of my recent boats, the BKs have given nothing in terms of structure or plank stiffening. One is a Driver hull, the other was a Winder. Both wood of course. The Full Force boats (#3634 for example) have BKs that are seperate mouldings, so one GRP builder thought about it. You could argue that having the BKs moulded-in is actually illegal, as it makes the "planks" over thickness, but since the external boat shape matches an existing boat so it is acceptable. Remember the lands on the Winders are just lumps of filler anyway, applied after the gelcoat has been put on the mould. This is slightly off piste, but does demonstrate that there are many different ways to skin the cat! 

Interestingly enough, we are having this discussion about something only because we have to modify the Rules to do it. I also put sharp corners on all the topside planks on BAU (previously there was only a sharp point at the rise of floor meausrement point). This made the boat much drier at sea, and from the photographs I have seen, there is far less spray now. Completely legal now (no Rule change required) and anyone can do it, if you want to play in your garage. Of course, I still capsize and miss windshifts and screw up the starts, so I am still no further up the fleet, but why should this stop me playing with the boat?

Ultimately, Ben and I (together with our seconders) are looking at changing the Rules. We are all members of the MROA and hence can propose anything we want too. It is a democracy (with funny voting rules of course) so we can put forward our ideas and everyone whom is a member can vote on them at the AGM. If we get out majority then the rule is passed, if not, then that decision is respected.

Andy, other than what reads as a dismissal you haven't tackled the point of whether the bks as fitted to most post mk1 Winder hulls contribute to the planing surface of the hull. I don't know and they look like they might hence I asked the question. My experience of sailing the same boat before and after mods indicates it might to.

You also need I think to bear in mind that the support shown at the last agm (Though my recollection is a little different, but never mind) came on the back of a huge debate, and the longest agm for years, over a rule change bought about by controversy over the interpretation of a weak class rule. The neatest way to deal with it back then was perceived to be to get rid of them if they are causing a problem. We are two years on, things have quietened down and the new rule appears satisfactory. There may not be the appetite in fleet to carry this through now, obviously the proof will be at the meeting.

I still feel that if you want people to vote for it you need to sell it to us. You need to tell us how it will improve the boat and our experience of sailing it. You haven't done that yet the only argument you've given for it is that it will give "choice". The problem there is that most people have neither the skills, time or the inclination to do this themselves and I think will end up having to pay to have them removed if it becomes essential to not have them. This is viewed by most of the people in this thread as an unneccessary expense.

Chris M. So that I can try to start from an "objective" basis re this proposal; you and Phil both know 3555 and her helm, were involved in her bow drop and recent internal refurb. Assuming this proposal was carried, can you indicate what sort of work/additional cost would be involved if I asked you to remove Light's bilge keels whilst carrying out an external repaint?

Mine are staying rule change or not. Not because I want to stop anyone from having the choice but I see little value in removing them and a significant cost/exercise to do so. If my next boat was built without them I would not be concerned.

My home club is based on the river and therfore we do not have the luxury of floating the boat onto a trolley. They have to be pulled up the bank and lifted onto the trolley. I can lift mine straight on to the trolley from the river but most people can't/won't. The only thing that stops the boat sraping on the floor and grinding the lands (if you get it wrong) is the Bilge Keels. For that reason alone I would want to keep them. Interestingly the handles on the older boats also still get used for this purpose!!

However, if it were proven that there was no performance advantage then a choice is fine. As Chris says, I think you need to put some substance to your argument if you want people to vote for it now. 

Currently they are not an issue and so there is no reason to want to change them. Give us one and we can consider it. At the moment I am firmly on the fence.

Ian - we'll discuss it over lunch!

Looking forward to this year's AGM, will bring my breakfast.

I have a feeling this will end up being another issue that fades into oblivion once the dust has settled.  It's very unlikely a properly faired bilge keel alters anything much in the hydrodynamics of the hull, and if it does we are talking about probably a foot or two at the end of a mile reach.  I will keep mine on Heaven Sent as I do haul out over the river edge but I have no particular issue about people removing them and I do not see that it will truly outclass boats that still have them.  I await the arguments for and against with interest - so many things we do are around fashion more than logic, I still feel the BK's serve a useful purpose for my boat and would have them fitted to a wooden hull if I had one built today.  GRP foam sandwich?  Not so sure it does the same, but 20kg of lead in the middle of a lighter structure doesn't make the boat any quicker either and everyone keeps doing it.

I think we should do something more worthwhile.

Lose the Lead.

The bilge keels do much more good than harm. Retrospective removal will be expensive (unviable) for plastic boats - therefore splitting the fleet into cans and cannots. Having just had 3514 refinished I don't want it to be immediately put out of date by such a pointless rule change.

In my opinion this is a pointless proposal and I will vote against.

We should concentrate on changing the design envelope (e.g. reducing minimum weight) and permitting modern mould making techniques to enable faster production of FRP prototypes (bilge keels and all).

/David

We think £5-600 to remove from a winder.

I think you would get more performance gain froma new Jib and Spinnaker for that kind of money. (no offence Chris!!)

I agree with the idea of permitting modern mould making techniques.
Then the class could get back to thinking more freely about different and maybe better hull shapes within the framework of the rules.
Surely with the computing that's available now there is progress to be made?

This proposal, like that of reducing the min. weight,is ,in my opinion against the spirit of the class. The Merlin Rocket is a "restricted" class, not a "change all the rules you dont like" class.

so as not to impinge on the saturday evening festivities too much or in fact at all would be good if andy could state his case

then somebody of the opposite thinking could state the case against 

then vote on swiftly,

Seems like I will have to take the bilge keels off my Merlin and put keel bands on my Solo's chines! I do not recall seeing keel bands on Solo chines for years!

Regarding lead, the lighter you make the boat, the more critical the all up crew weight becomes, as it beomes a greater part of the total weight. Over time it would narrow the appeal of the class to the heavier teams. Bilge keels, with the current generation of boats it is becoming less or a requirement, but we must remember, the so add some longitudinal reinforcement in the area where the ephelumps walk (me included). Will the shape change with the removal of the bilge keels, I think not. New materials, rig and sail power changes design. Will this happen in the future, almost certainly, thats the fun of the Merlin Rocket. Have a good weekend.

At a time when many other classes are having problems with numbers at open meetings, and not selling as many new boats as they'd like, the Merlin Rocket class is outstandingly healthy.
I believe, as a relatively new member, that its popularity is due to a balance between development of new ideas and competitiveness of older boats.
Anything that undermines that should be avoided. If there is a performance gain that can be cheaply retrofitted to all boats, such as the longer spinnaker poles, that would be good, but messing with the structure of a plastic boat to stay competitive seems a very bad idea. Even if it can be done as suggested for 'only' about £600, you have to add to that time to deliver the boat both ways, and the loss of use while it's being done.
In my view, it is the high resale value of used Winder boats that makes the class affordable for many at the top end. If you fiddle with the system you might put off enough used boat buyers that the value of your 3 year old Winder drops by a lot more than the cost of the mods. The value of owning a Merlin is not just the piece of wood or plastic, it's the opportunity to race it against 30 or 40 others on a competitive basis. 
Very possibly you only have to make a small fraction of the fleet uncompetitive to tip the class from growth to decline.
You probably don't even need to make them really uncompetitive, you just have to knock the confidence of people like myself who are considering buying an £8k? £10k? boat, on the basis that it will hold its value fairly well. I'm definitely holding off upgrading until this is settled.
If the top guys can suddenly no longer sell their 3 year old boats for good prices, it will become a very much more expensive game. A look around other certain classes' websites will show you what depreciation can be like.

Interesting debate, thank you. I am not going to get to Hayling due to a sick crew, but will be more than willing to chat through stuff at Rutland, Brightlingsea, Starcross or any other ST event prior to the AGM.

I am not going to comment on the lead issue. This is not the subject here but for what it is worth I am not in favour of this for exactly the reasons that Barnsie eloquantly states.

Back to this thread topic then:

Firstly, the Class is a Restricted class. This means that the development of the class can evolve within controlled boundaries. This is not to say that it is a one design class (in spite of the perception with the plethora of Winders on show). I know and accept this. My BKs on #3626 were put on just before the class rules changed and hence are legal to those Rules. The Rules then changed and you cannot have BKs like mine again. I have an RYA exemption to allow me to still call my boat a Merlin Rocket and this exemption is not time limited. This does mean that if I want to make a GRP mould from my boat or if I want to change the BKs at all, I will have to put BKs on that meets the current Rule. I respect these restrictions, even though it probably means that my boat has been devalued in some way.

Secondly, there are times when the Rules need to change. If they did not, then we would not have carbon masts, laminate sails, Winder hulls (get that!), wide hulls, etc. The Merlin & Rocket classes would not have amalgamated and the boat we see today would not exist. Then again, if we kept some Rules, then we might still have a maximum price!! So, the Class Rules, like the boats themselves, evolve and develop. Even SMOD boats evolve: RS400 are a case in point. Just look into the Laser (or Kirby Torch) situation to see that even this Olympic singlehander is not immune.

Thirdly, ANY member of the MROA can propose changes to the Rules. Whether you agree with this or not is immaterial, this is within the Class Rules. If you have a quorum (love that word) and get the 75% vote, then your change gets in. I am sorry Mr Cole (regards to James by the way), but this is the way it is. If someone wants to propose to the AGM that we remove 20kg of lead, then that is their right. Sorry I said I would not comment on the lead issue. 

Ok. So to clarify, since it was apparently not clear, I want to remove bilge keels because I believe that they are a relic of the past and I do not want them on the bottom of my piece of loveliness that is Business as Usual. Since I am also concious that some may want to retain them, or it is difficult to remove them on some boats, I have proposed that we make them optional equipment on the hull. Therefore we all have the choice.

Keith C has stated that there appears to be negligable gain or loss here (and well within the remit of a poor tack, missed shift or rubbish start). This thread seems to have established that there will be a negligable performance gain (but no-one knows of course, I am not sure, but of course, I would say that!), so why force the class to retain them?

We are proposing to make them optional, so those on the river, those with Winders and those that choose to do so, can retain them. Those that think that they are antiquated and a relic that has no place on a modern Merlin Rocket can remove them.

If we are concerned about whether a Winder Mk I (or whatever) will be competitive in 15 years time, do we really invision that a new Merlin of the future will still have BKs? Hardly a progressive view here.

Remember that if someone develops a new hull that is significantly faster than the Winder - the jury is still out on Jellyfish and Wicked it would seem - then the Winder product will devalue anyway. No protection from the Rules there, just market forces. Similarly, my modified Let It Ride will also become obselete. Of course, this is the doomsday scenario and with judicious tweaking, I am sure that BAU will continue to be competitive (helm permitting) for years yet. I do not think that removing the BKs will make one jot of difference to the situation.

Change is part of the Merlin Rocket class.

As a parting comment - if it were me and faced with £600 for a BK mod, I would spend the money with Richard Whitworth (other coaches are available, and I am not on commission) and have 4 days training instead. This will make more difference to the position in the fleet than anything on the bottom of the boat will do.

I still want to remove the bilge keels from my boat and need a Rule change to do it. Some others are of the same mind. We will see whether there are enough of us at the AGM!

Hopefully, see you at Rutland.

chris l hasmade some very relevant points here,at present merlin is probably the least depreciating dinghy on the market..and pretty bullet proof too...the cost of removal to a glass boat is a rough idea but its high enough for some to think they could do a d.i y. job,some of the stuff thats been down that route on repairs we see is dreadful....and the potential horrors of bodging could really damage the reputation of the boat.Andy, ive seen your work and you have some good skills,ditto jez deacon,its the others that worry me!!!...it may appear im scare mongering ...but it will happen....

Andy,

I agree on many levels.

My BKs are also quite distinctive and create a interesting and street legal alternative.

The current stasis in development is counter to the original ethos of the class, but the inevitable and eventual outcome of a progressive but restricted class.

I'd like the class to find a way of stimulating a new phase of development.

However the difficulty is in squaring the circle between "progression" and devaluing a lot of expensive hardware.  If you want to be radical, try Laurie Smart's ideas about having a 30cm tolerance on where in the middle of the boat the rise of floor is measured to allow a long fine entry.  I really doubt the BK thing is of any significance, but as we had quite a long discussion before we took the sail numbers off our spinnys...

Possibly the time to start changing rules is when the class is suffering from decline, because the formula is not working?
Whereas at the moment it is enjoying racing and new boat sales that most classes can only dream about.

If were going to change any rules, I would suggest starting by giving everybody in the class a postal vote on important matters.

Thanks for the continued responses.

DH - I am honoured! Can you write me a reference? Since we are talking here about a potential (and remember this would be optional) mod to the Winder boats, this would be in the territory that I might consider as beyond my skills. My woodie is not a problem, not would it be to remove from a Full Force. Both these could be a DIY job.

Chris I - if you want to propose a postal voting system to the Class Rules, then please do. I would support it. The current Rules do not allow for this, so we have to work with what we have now. I could have just put the proposal in and discussed it at the AGM only - of course, when the agenda is published in the mag, it would be fair game, but the discourse we are now having would be more fraught.

DL - I am not looking for this to prompt a new development stream, but then never bet on the laws of unintended consequences. The addition of transom flaps lead to the wide boats we have now. I just simply want to remove a piece of extraneous and unnecessary material from the boat (my opinion here), but as this thread has highlighted, some might want to keep them. Fair enough, as long as they comply with the current Rules, then leave them on, I just want to take them off, so need a Rule change to make them optional.

As people have opined, removal of the BKs will probably not make any more difference than a bad tack or two or a rubbish set of sails, but removal of lead or changing the RoF rule will instantly split the fleet. I think that this is a simple Rule change that is well within the historical incremental step change ethos.

Sorry, I couldn't make Hayling - a bit of a domestic emergency - but looking forward to discussions (and sailing) at Rutland, Brightlingsea and Starcross in the coming weeks.

A different view from a person less involved in the very hard core of MERLIN racing.I sail and own a Merlin because she is utterly beautiful, and although I am the only Merlin at my club, we get constant and erudite comments about the boat. The feeling I get is that really most of my club colleagues would love to own one,so much more responsive and traditional than a fireball, just more fun than anything plastic like a Laser 2000.I have heard people call them 'classic' boats,as if all the boats ever made are more than 40 years old.

I think the point I am trying to make is that the boat and the class is very very special and unique. Please lets never go to single chine, aerofoil rudders...look at the Nat12..its lost, its history..its UGLY!!

Personally ,I think some carbon fibre handles on the foredeck would look amazing..the planks are amazing , as are the bilge keels.

Just look at all the clever ideas the architects had in the 50's..its happening again now.Look at Coventry shopping precinct..they had a blank canvas,,why oh why didnt they rebuild it as it was..these modern box houses that look like lego and cost a million quid to build..they will not stand the test of time.

In summary, the key is to mix tradition with modern techniques and the odd quirk.Bilge keels this year, planks next..Merlin class finished year after.

Merlins get the coverage they get and the following because they are beautiful, quick, classic lines.They are every sailors guilty pleasure.

My view, take from my ramblings what you will...I just felt I had to put my 2 pennorth in.Happy sailing!

well put rod !!

+1 for the above.

Merlins give a wide variety of designs to race, at a variety of costs. We are not all people with unlimited bank balances who aim to get the last 0.05% of potential from our boats by going down the arms route. There are plenty of boats that are able to compete, albeit perhaps not at the front of the fleet, and this provides a balanced mix of folk to socialise with.

Both my older boats {one wood, one early Foam planked] had suffered damage/rot at the four "below waterline holes" in the hull. Namely self balers and centreboard pivot holes.  Areas that are part protected and strengthened by bilge keels. The damage also seen on these keels also indicate that they serve a purpose. Personally I see no advantage to change the rules, and plenty of disadvantages.  Do you really want to kill off all the older boats and their owners?

1074 and  3443

My twopenneth.

Apart from making the boat easier to polish/finish I  still, from reading above, cannot see why you would want to remove them. No discernable performance gain, and only visible to fish unless there's a turtle about.

and:

They serve a purpose for those who have to beach their boats before putting on trolley. Suppose they become optional and someone decides to remove them or does not have them fitted because he/she can float boat onto trolley. They later sell the boat to someone who cannot float the boat onto trolley, that person will then need to put the BK's put back on.

Cost of removing, cost of putting back on. Surely better to spend the money on sails.

Still I suppose the choice of not being able to sell the boat because it cannot be beached without damaging the lands would be yours to choose.

Knock on effect would be damage to the second-hand market and then class as a whole.

I'm on the fence, leaning to leave BK's alone.

Miles

Not sure I see what the problem is here. If removing the bilge keels gives little or no performance advantage then why does it matter if some boats have them and some do not?

 If some want to experiment with removing them and their boats become soft losing structural rigidity in that area then the craze certainly won't catch on.

As has been previously stated, we have a system for voting that may not be perfect..but if people feel strongly either way they will have to pitch up at the AGM to voice their opinion and cast their vote. 

Unfortunately I won't be there this year, but am not really concerned which way this rule change falls.

Surely it is beyond reasonable doubt that bilge keels slow the boat down?, the only question is how much?
Every class I've looked at, the keen sailors minimise them to the limit of the rules.
I can see that they would end up being about as optional as an aluminium mast.
Perversely, I would be affected less than many people, because my Merlin needs the hull refinishing anyway.
I'm thinking more of my next boat.

Being a cantancorous Merlin owner , think I may get 50 pairs of beautiful carbon fibre foredeck handles made and see how many I sell, in a straw pole sort of way.
We have to protect this beautiful craft for our children. 

My 13 year old insisted that we watched the start of the Merlin Salocmbe open last month from our tiny rubber dinghy. I have never been so cold and wet, but what a pleasure..wathcing the way the fishermen were dealt with, no anger or angst,the chav pole holders put in their place intelligently and subtly. The point is,(outside the fishermen) HE wanted to watch the Merlins,because he appreciates them as being racing classic lined machines.HE is 13..not 40..even he appreciates the lines and the spirit of the class.

I understand racing and development having raced cars at all levels, but lets take the Goodwood festival for an example...my Austin A35, that cost 40k to build , would do 0-60 in under 3 secs, 140 mph top speed, handle like a Le Mans sports car, and was wonderful to drive, LOOKED on the outside like a 1950's shopping vehicle.WE had old wing mirrors, chrome bumpers, bumper stoppers,original family of engine, 1275 A series instead of 998,even a leather rear seat, and two front seats.


The point here is that out of 2000 motor racing events nationally per summer, Good wood would get the biggest crowd, bigger than the Grand Prix, and they all come to watch the St Marys Trophy, the saloon car race..the A35 beating the Jag..catch it on you tube its fantastic.Crowds cheering, screaming even...at tradition doing 140mph being driven by Ex F1 stars like Brundle and Oliver.

The relevance? The Merlin class is now at the Good wood stage, making beauty and traditional quick and sexy, everyone wants us, loves us, in fact am going to rename my boat 'Guilty pleasure'.. We have Olympic stars racing our class because we are sexy and 'different', and 'cool. Correct me but are they lining up to sail larks..or scorpions or Nat 12s..???

If you want to sail a skiff. sail a skiff, put some racing stripes on your laser 2000,try and pretend that your fireball is really a boat when in reality it is an overgrown wooden topper with lines that would embarrass a common door stop,just leave the Merlin alone. Play with the rig..put a wing on it, but do not mess with the lines and the basic beauty of the hull of the craft.

An now going back under my stone..ramble over ,Rod 3310.

What is the point of this..if everyone has BKs everyone has the same 'hinderance'.

By taking some away, the class becomes more and more elitist therefore less people prepared to enter open meetings etc with boats with BKs as they feel physcholically disadvantaged therefore less boats racing , therefore start of downward spiral.

simples.