MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Classic designs

I know the 'old' design guide tells us a great deal but I would love to hear some of the oppinions of you chaps that had these boats built back in the day.
I sail on the river at Hampton where we have a growing fleet of classic 60's merlins and we all have great races against each other, more often than not beating the modern NSM's and Tales derivatives.

We currently have racing:
various mark 9's, a mark 9B (mine), a couple of Mark 12's, a mark 6, a mark 16(i think), an adur7 and an expectant.

What I would really like to hear about are how/why these designs evolved and what were the supposed strengths and weaknesses of the designs. In particular the 9, 9B and 12.

Many thanks, Hywel


Posted: 23/10/2010 13:57:01
By: Hywel jnr
Time Hywel snr gave you a copy of the Merlin book  !

The 9 was fast but difficult to sail according to John Oakley ( one of the best con tricks ever ! ) so the 9B was a mod with much softer chines at the transom . Alan Warren and Barry Dunning were sailing a 12 when I first joined SMYC in1962 and seemed to capsize it every week-end . George Slack in a 9 and Chris Andrews in an Adur 7 beat them easily - then Alan bought Cotopaxi and it awas a different story !


Posted: 23/10/2010 16:19:39
By: former whitstable pro
One interesting point is back then these boats weren't consisdered river boats, they were sailed on all waters, including the sea. Now most of these boats are just sailed on rivers and small resoviours, where the winds are often lighter. I wonder how much the design guides ever take this into account. They often refer to how they did at the time on the circuit or at the champs, which is rather different from sailing them at Tammy, Hampton, etc. What order would most river sailors place these designs. For example what would be your top 5 designs, and what is it about those designs that make them successful on the river?


Posted: 23/10/2010 20:55:09
By: Ross
Anthony Evans and I had a Mk9 1926 Maritime and she was very competitive inland and at sea in the mid 60s. We didn't win anything in stronger winds but that was because I was never good enough in a blow.
My Mk12 1084 was quick inland but I also found it difficult to keep it the right way up in winds above force 2 - 3 and she didn't seem as quick downwind as other designs at sea.
Our Mk11 1014 Antike was a good all round design at the time and won us a few races at Rye and on the South East coast. I regret we didn't test her much inland.
The only design I sailed that didn't seem competitive in her era was a Mk17 2227 Shahdaroba.


Posted: 24/10/2010 12:08:21
By: Tony Lane
Time you joined the assciation too!


Posted: 24/10/2010 19:01:15
By: (:)
The three best river boats I sailed were - 

1) I admit to being biased but I must put my late Dad's 50 year old Jack Holt built 'Passing Cloud' no. 1079 as my number one. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, four Passing Clouds race at Tamesis, three origionals and a modern wooden copy. All have modern gear and are very succesful. Several more were built, maybe some of them are still out there.

If my Dad's previous Holt boat 'Dizzy' no. 490 were still out there in good condition I'd make her at least equal with 'Passing Cloud'

2) Adur 7. We had 'Helgel' no 1502 which was the first. She was a bit special both on the river and open water There are still some around, they are very succesful on the river when modernised and well sailed.

3) Phil Morrison designed Satisfactions. I had 'Baccarat' no. 2614 which previously belonged to my brother John and the late Ken Ellis. The wider 'Smokers' version is probably just as good and is much sought after. Andy Harris has a 'Smokers' and he always goes with the flow.

David Vines does well in his wooden NSM2 - 1st at Minima, 2nd at Tamesis, 2nd at Hampton. 'Andromeda' no. 3259 is well regarded but I believe only two were built.


Posted: 25/10/2010 08:39:49
By: Robert Harris
Robert, is there any chance that the Adur 8 (that is for sale on ebay) could be any good for the River, if modernised with perhaps decent rig and sails ?


Posted: 25/10/2010 10:47:13
By: Ben 1189
A dog - only good at sea in a blow .


Posted: 25/10/2010 11:25:07
By: former whitstable pro
Surely this is a wind up...!


Posted: 25/10/2010 11:37:44
By: TC
And nor very good then either, ask Robert Harris! Quite simply one of the few truly slow Merlin Rocket Designs.


Posted: 25/10/2010 11:58:19
By: David Child
To read my opinion of the Adur 8 go to 'Search the forum', type in Adur 8 and click on GO. Then click on the 2nd subject 'Cracking Adur 8 on E-Bay'. My response to an earlier question about the Adur 8 is the 5th post.

I have a photo of me leading 3 times champion Brian Southcott off a start at Tamesis in my Adur 8 no. 1888. That was the only two or three minutes I was ever ahead of Brian in that boat. I'd pay a max. of �5 for one and chop her up for a Guy Fawkes bonfire!

There is a photo of 1888 in the vintage pics, it was taken at Weymouth in 1965.


Posted: 25/10/2010 15:14:36
By: Robert Harris
Thank you Gentlemen - no further questions on that topic !!


Posted: 25/10/2010 18:06:59
By: Ben 1189
(:)what association are you suggesting I join please?


Posted: 26/10/2010 20:00:38
By: Tony Lane
Sorry Tony Lane if you tought i meant you, I was addressing the poster of the question who I could not find in the year book to post an 1965 aerticle on MR designs by Ian Proctor to. Mea Culpa.


Posted: 26/10/2010 22:54:11
By: (:)
There is definatly a need for a vintage design guide, i beleive Mervyn Allen was approached to put something together with the help of some of the other Thames stalwarts.

However this is a mammoth task!

The Proctor designs are pretty well covered in the old guide, we all know the Adur 6 was illegal, the 7 very good and the 8 a dog,but what about the Jack Holt designs?


Posted: 27/10/2010 08:26:22
By: Chris M
Who can name the JH designs ?

Passing Cloud
Nelly
Martine

Any more ?


Posted: 27/10/2010 09:04:52
By: PC
Subsequent to Passing Cloud (Which was about when I joined the class.) and her sisters Jack Holt had two more goes at Merlin Rockets, the "Sealight" Design Built for John Henderson (Tamesis.) and Chimp (Sister Ships.) which was built for Brian Southcott (Also Tamesis.) (Mervyn Allen has "Chimp" (1357.) in his stable of boats now I think?) Neither distinguished themselves and Brian quickly reverted to Restful and various Restless's. This is listed as "Sealight" Then he (Jack.) built two more boats 1549 and 1550 (One of which is for sale but needs a load of work and is possibly too far gone.)Tom Broughton at Ranelagh and Hampton had one they were a nod to Mike Jacksons first Merlin Rocket design "Rakes Progress" 1455. Neither bothered the prize givers. They are listed as "Topaz" but if sailed by an ace who knows what might have been, but by then Jack Holt like Ian Proctor was a busted flush Merlin Rocket design wise. The legal Adur Boats, Jacksons, Trumans, Jones, Booths etc., were taking over. I would make a case for the Truman "Surf Scoter" design, The Jackson "Supersticion" design and the Jones "Expectant" the latter showing the way forward though many of us were slow to see it!


Posted: 27/10/2010 09:43:37
By: David Child
In the current year book Jack's boats are listed as Kate-Merlin-Dilly-Banana-Charm-Tempo-Dally-Riant-Penguin-Candlelight-Martine-Prelude-Nellie-Premiere-Tequila-Passing Cloud-Sealight-Sapphire which I eronneously listed as Topaz -sorry!
Which is about the same number of difering marks that Ian Proctor designed.


Posted: 27/10/2010 09:51:10
By: David Child
The other line of more recent boats that should be good on the river were the Richard Debenham boats, I still rather regret selling Super Nova 2315, a Northern Light, as it was definitely a quick boat on the river if pointed in the right direction whereas my replacement 3202 a Hoare NSM, was a dog.  The later Debenham boats were built in very small numbers, Broad Scoter, Velvet Scoter I think.  All were developed from the Surf Scoter, doubtless Mr Child remembers this design as I think Flower Child is still about.
Northern Light's reputation for being "difficult" downwind is well-justified with fine vee'd bows and lots of rocker forward of the centreboard.


Posted: 27/10/2010 11:17:13
By: Andrew M
Close but no cigar!
Flower Child was/is A Supersticion, Beat Nik was a Surf Scoter designed jointly by Nick Truman and Richard Debenham the Northern Lights like Super Scoter are simply a flared out Surf Scoter, (Itself a Proctor 9 derivative.) boat for boat built as succesful a design as any. We never found the design especially difficult nor did Nick Trumam, Graham Leech or Harry Haynes who all had them at one time or another. They did well in all weather Beat Nik won a heavy weather race at Weymouth Championships in 1965 and should have won the super heavy 1965 Championships (Only two races sailed 2nd in both to different people a discard was allowed!) She also won in fluky light conditions inland and at sea a very good all round boat. If anyone is interested I do have the lines drawing and offsets.


Posted: 27/10/2010 12:19:29
By: David Child
Hi (:), I am a member of the association infact I have just checked the 2010 year book and I'm there at the top of page81. I think my email address is confusing, my full surname is 'Bowen-Perkins' (I'm the one in Guildford). I would love to see a copy of that article if you would be so kind as to send it on.
This thread is really interesting, it must have been an amazing time in the 60's and 70's to see all the hull developments and to have been part of the boat park banter about what tweaks were better and why.
I'd just like to thank David Child who sent me a brilliantly in depth email about some of the developments he was involved in.


Posted: 27/10/2010 18:45:51
By: Hywel jnr
Interestingly just looking at the menbership list for ST scores. Gareth has been a member since 1978, so looks like your Dad signed him up before he was born ;-))


Posted: 27/10/2010 19:39:30
By: Ross
...would Mr Child be happy for you to publish that email here? i for one would be very interested to get an insight into the thinking behind these boats.  Thank you


Posted: 27/10/2010 20:20:18
By: interested
If "interested" would send me a mail or publish an e-mail address I'll send him a copy (cleaned up.) as sent to Hywel it is not fit for publication the perils of typing English on a Danish keyboard!


Posted: 27/10/2010 22:24:05
By: David Child
David, if the cleaned up copy is sufficent for release to the general public, might I suggest that Pat Blake could publish in the mag? It would be interesting for us all to know the reasoning behind some of the design changes that came through in that era.


Posted: 28/10/2010 12:46:42
By: Andy Hay
It looks like the Merlin fleet would realy benefit from a boat database like the Nat 12s or Larks/Fireballs. Has this been considered? (or is it hidden in the members section?)


Posted: 28/10/2010 13:12:56
By: Ex Merlin
If you look on the home page you will find a 'Design Guide' on the top line. We have had a very good and comprehensive guide for some time. We are just discussing expanding it a little for the older designs as they are becoming such a force on the river.


Posted: 28/10/2010 13:30:01
By: Jez3645
There is a full boat list in the annual MROA yearbook


Posted: 28/10/2010 14:15:50
By: Ross
I've been told that of the Holt boats a Martine was one of the fastest on the river, never seen one so can't confirm. 607 Crescendo is certainly quick, can't work out what design this is from the Merlin year book, a one off ?


Posted: 28/10/2010 16:24:44
By: RH
When Bill Pettit had her I understood her to be a "glued up" Banana Boat like 177 "Lucky", and as such may represent a one off in glued boat terms,no doubt her present owner Berry Ritchie would tell us? She is of course very well sailed, carrying over 140 years of experience, which does help performance!


Posted: 28/10/2010 16:47:37
By: (:)
There's a certain unmodernised Riant that always takes a lot to beat. Great river and lake boat.


Posted: 29/10/2010 21:39:43
By: PJ
Pray tell!


Posted: 29/10/2010 22:32:29
By: Tease
A little bit of detective work in the Year Book indicates that she's probably 'Squirrel' no 235. She's the only 'Riant' which is listed as owned by a member who is Mike Liggett who owns several vintage boats. 

According to the Year Book 'Riant' no. 247 was the tenth boat to be built to this design. I think Jack Holt built her for himself which may explain why that happened.

Riant's were moderately successful with 5th overall in the 1951 championship and 2nd in 1953 and 1955.


Posted: 30/10/2010 13:18:12
By: Robert Harris
My bet is Chris Barlow's Spritefull No 507 Jack Holt's Riant design - and incidentally Jack Holt's first glued construction Merlin built in 1954 which is unmodified (although alloy mast and terylene sails) and from what I recall was 5th in flight C at the 60th anniversary Tideway back in 2006 sailed by Roger Deveraux and 15th overall.  Superb upwind.  Others may have further info?


Posted: 01/11/2010 22:45:09
By: Garry R
I certainly enjoy 507 and she does go well in the right conditions.
If you can look at a copy of When Dinghies Delight by Steavenson There's a lovely description of a 1951 championships with Jack Holt sailing Riant.


Posted: 10/11/2010 18:59:30
By: chris
Thanks Robert. Yes, Squirrel is certainly a quick tacking boat and is also a completely un-modified ribbed Riant with original Holt wooden mast and 1959 (first year allowed)Ratsey Terylene sails. She does take in water - but what ribbed boats didn't! She is however finding it increasingly difficult to compete with the 'newer' designs/rigs on the vintage circuit - although this may be in part attributed to aging helm!


Posted: 11/11/2010 11:45:40
By: Mike Liggett
In retrospect, 'Sprig of Shillelagh' (408) was another nippy Riant in the hands of various Blakes and together with 'Squirrel' dominating the Vintage Wing winners from 1997 to 2004.


Posted: 11/11/2010 12:57:26
By: Mike Liggett
What happens when an old Merlin cannot compete in the Vintage Merlin events?  Is it time to be put out to pasture in the CVRDA?


Posted: 12/11/2010 11:54:25
By: Steve Hawkins
Come and check out the first race of the Tamesis Winter Series;

Make it so vs Cantebury Tails vs NSM 2 (wood and plastic) vs Adur 7 vs Proctor 9B vs Passing Cloud vs Cloud 2000 vs Smokers Satisfaction plus others.

11:15 start


Posted: 12/11/2010 11:59:39
By: TC
There's no good reason you can't compete in the Vintage series Stephen. Several of the regulat cvrda merlins do and we have joint events too - Banbury next year will be a nice day out for us.


Posted: 12/11/2010 18:55:32
By: Pat2121
I have felt sometimes that sailing Iska, no.6 has become a bit pointless in the vintage series  but there is a handicap system used for old vs new rigs and sails. Iska has never had a set of terylene sails in her life but has about four sets of cotton sails still. I have no intention of joining an arms race and putting modern sails on her. For me the whole point of her is that she is so original. There are quite a few early merlins out there and it would be great to see more of them at events. The best part of it is to sail against similar boats, but I know I will do much better in the de May series in 507 than in Iska but that isn't the point for me anyway.


Posted: 15/11/2010 09:13:20
By: chris
well said Chris!
Does anyone know of a sailmaker still working in cotton? Would like a new(ish)set for 36.
And I promise to get rid of the pink string...


Posted: 15/11/2010 18:24:36
By: john
I am pretty sure both Jeckells of Wroxham and Ratsey and Lapthorne of Cowes - there are probably a couple in the creeks of Essex, that still have the experience but that the problem is sourcing dinghy weight cotton sail cloth I managed to find a bit for a friend who wanted to patch a sail. The Dutch and Danes have traditional sailmakers still but I guess the lightweight cotton cloth would be as hard to source for them. Cotton sails will likely be very expensive - all that hand roping etc, and then there is the sail stretching, and who who did it before 1960 would volunteer to sail with natural fibre sails, any more than you would really want to sail in plimpsoles and a sweater! Though it is good to think that whilst they last people are using them and accepting the limitations it puts on them. You could buy heavy duty sheets from the Irish Linen shop I suppose but they are astronomic in price, and I am note sure if they are a stable weave anyway.


Posted: 15/11/2010 20:50:25
By: David Child

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