MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Wow!

Sometimes you just have to bow down to the genius that is the International Moth class. Rule 10 (a) rather precludes this on a MR, but boy wouldn't it look cool.

http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/10/56248/adam-mays-revolutionary-solid-wingsail-foiling-moth

Posted: 04/08/2010 21:21:55
By: Andy Hay - Champs Chappie
No a Doctor Johnsons Dog of a boat.


Posted: 05/08/2010 09:54:39
By: ():
That's not a boat it's a..., what the hell is it? Answers on a postcard please.


Posted: 05/08/2010 16:55:32
By: Robert Harris
I, for one, am glad that Merlins have not gone that way. If they had I wouldn't (and probably couldn't) be sailing one!

On the other hand it is sad that the development class that is Merlin Rocket has to all intents and purposes stopped developing.

David


Posted: 11/08/2010 09:33:09
By: David R
I don't think that developments have stopped, it is just that anything that isn't "al la mode" is so expensive to start from scratch and no-one has the time to tinker anymore.

I, for one, am very excited about the prospect of seeing two (yes, two) new Turner boats at the Champs. Nick has built "Project X" from the LIR frames, tweaked to be in line with the latest thinking. Jon has started from scratch with a design that has been providing rumours for months. Jon's boat is supposed to be sporting a new rig design too.

Matt Biggs has a tabbed centreboard which he is working up, and Tricky Dickie has been using a moveable centreboard pivot bolt position for some time. So I don't agree that the MR has stopped developing, but the developments are generally small step changes - evolution if you will - rather than big bang.

Who knows what next year will bring.


Posted: 11/08/2010 10:03:08
By: Andy Hay - Champs Chappie
Many boats in the 1950's had tabs on their centreboards. Never found out if they worked. Rodney Pattisonn tried them on his Flying Dutchman and threw it out for the first race in 1972 at Kiel. What is the concensus of opinion? A few boats had sliding bolts as well along with rocking plates.


Posted: 11/08/2010 12:05:32
By: Barry D
Barry, I had gybing boards on all my Merlin Rockets and I thought it enabled us to climb out to windward in all except the very heavy stuff, we tried a trim tab on 1523 Beat Nik but it was simply too complicated, with todays technology and more powerful rigs who knows certainly I think unless you have a very tight fit in the case, a board that flops around will generate negative lift you can of course rake it foreward to make sure it does not, but therein lies a whole different set of opportunities/problems with balance etc.


Posted: 11/08/2010 12:31:46
By: David Child
Your right. New materials and technology could make some of the old ideas work.
What other ideas were tried but were unable to be made to work?
I did have a mast foot that I could move 20cm on a traveller. Could never keep the rigging tight. Maybe now this would work for more speed downwind. What about canting rigs to windward wih a single string!!


Posted: 11/08/2010 12:51:39
By: Barry D
Barry, predating you and I Barry Brian Saffery-Cooper had a adjustable raking mast (His late Father told me.) on Buccaneer no 97 that he also increased the beam on by takin the decks off and spreading the whole issue was controoled by a capstan arrangement on the fordeck I wonder looking at the "Marlow Ropes Benefit" that the modern Merlin Rocket is, if more could be done with levers virtualy frictioneless, simple one could even then adjust the rake easily of a keel stepped mast (Just like Dragon mast ram!) then further simplyfying by getting rid of thelower shrouds! I wonder if even the wide M-R has enough power to make canting a rig a good thing they are not as steady a boat as they were, the mast tips wave about a lot! But pulling the rig to windward doesn't half create lift!
How about a 22'6" rig with the abilty to have effective gust response,even adjustable jumpers! More free area most races are in light to moderate why set a boat up primarily for the heavy stuff?
Sadly ballasted Centeboards are no longer legal,(Max weight of board. 8kg?) think what could be done with depleated uranium! In 1970 my last year in the class both Alan Warren and I and a few others had lead in the bottom of our boards rather than in correctors in the boat didn't we.
Oh if I was 3 stones lighter and had working knees and sailed in the UK! What fun.


Posted: 11/08/2010 13:24:24
By: David Child
A canting rig was tried on 'Scantily Clad' back in 2003. No benefit was ever reported back, and the boat has been altered to a conventional setup now.

Levers do have a vast friction benefit over blocks, yes, but the amount of travel available is massively limited. I don't believe you could run any of the raking rig controls off a lever as they need ropes to move by over 10cm.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/library/interviews/steve_neal_2.htm

Posted: 11/08/2010 16:16:00
By: Mags
Lounge Lizard 3484 had a Jacko designed lever that raked the rig.  However it was not set up properly by the time it arrived at Hampton with Rob Heath and as it never worked he ditched it in the end.  It adjusted both shrouds and jib halyard, possibly kicker as well.  Did Jacko supply other boats with the same system?


Posted: 11/08/2010 17:28:41
By: Andrew M
It's interesting that there is never anything truely new in this game ...

3400 originally had a mast ram at the mast foot to rake the mast against and she now sports a very different arrangement.

There were a few level rigged Jacko boats - the lever acted as an early one string if I recall. The different locations on the lever accounted for the differential movement of the shrouds, lowers, etc. which we now do with blocks & expensive rope.

Jumpers to the topmast to prebent the top - aside from this being a standard skiff rig - Phil Morrison had these on Summer Wine.

What was it that Glen Truswell said - its all about squaring the circle - or something like that!


Posted: 11/08/2010 19:37:27
By: Andy Hay - Champs Chappie
The Lounge Lizzard setup was a nightmare and whilst it worked it was just too hard to adjust. I crewed on her and have very vidid memories of pulling on that damn tension contol line on the kingpost with all my might, then to release you had to manually move/force the lever by hand. 
It was a god send to step back in to Seventh Heaven which had just been converted to a standard deckstepped setup.

Interestingly I was speaking to a National 12 sailor at the weekend who had travellers on the deck running foward and aft for the shrouds. Exactly like Diamond Smiles used to have, he had been using them with great success. This setup also seems popular on the NS14's.

Who was it that turned up at the Exe Nationals (was it 1995?) he'd built his own boat with a tilting spaceframe in the bow, seemed a very neat idea!


Posted: 12/08/2010 09:14:38
By: Paul D
John Dalby? If it wasn't it is the sort of thing he would do!!


Posted: 12/08/2010 10:11:46
By: Hollys dad
Shroud tracks = standard fit on the Tasar (with rotating mast of course!)


Posted: 12/08/2010 10:32:15
By: Andy Hay - Champs Chappie
The NS14 and Tasar systems work to great effect if looked after. We had ours setup for medium to heavy weather and if light only had them on partly on both sides so less rig tension and more upright. All about keeping the forestay from sagging. Believe we were the first people to actually adjust them racing (1987) as originally they were used to assist in stepping the mast. I remember FB looking perplexed by our multiple shackle carbine jib clew adjusters and raking rig idea in Vancouver at the Worlds in 1988 (I think). It really worked though and all we needed was the breeze as it was a light airs lightweights event. Memories but what goes around comes around again as materials improve and people are brave enough to follow through with the content of their pockets.

Bye for now

Barnsie


Posted: 12/08/2010 14:27:01
By: Barnsie
It was really refreshing to look around the Redwing fleet at Cowes week. They are a restricted keelboat class and they have all sorts of different rigs and combinations. Lots of ideas out there to try if the pocket is deep enough! Maybe the National 12 class is just more adventurous or richer!!! The whole point of a restricted class is to be searching for that little thing called edge whether it be from equipment or expertise in handling etc..


Posted: 12/08/2010 15:06:56
By: Barry D
When Glen Truswell built his boat (After Hours) it had tracks for the jib tack, the shrouds, the mast foot and the centreboard bolt.  He removed them not too long afterwards.  Also the Solings use tracks for the shrould base as well.


Posted: 12/08/2010 16:13:09
By: Stuart Bates (MR3615)
How about a modified version of this that you can rake to windward?

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/pictures/boat-tests/24458/1/0/fan-class-32

Posted: 12/08/2010 16:18:01
By: Stuart Bates (MR3615)
Whenever a windurfer goes to windward they rake their rigs to windward. It must be the way to go with a single string system surely. That, combined with a rotating wing mast. Come on, start experimenting!


Posted: 18/08/2010 18:01:06
By: Barry D
The rake of the rig to windward is not such a big deal, I get most of my lift from the soft bendy long 70cm fin which is tuned to the the board.  lOn my biggest 12.5m rig, I use the uphaul rope as a long lever to keep the rig more upright..whilst I am effectively "hiking" out on my harness lines.  
Current thinking is that having the ring more upright in 8 - 18 kts, with the windsurfer hiking hard is the way to go.

I'm sceptical that a windward-raked rig would give you any performance boost, especially with the soft luff compared to the hard wing of a 10 batten monofilm windsurfing sail..IMHO
Still working on the the wing of bling though..

Tim B


Posted: 18/08/2010 19:18:12
By: TimB
I was talking only last week to an old friend who has designed & sailed boards at top level for years, he told me exactly the same thing about the new generation of boards with lifty fin so that in the end the board is just hitting the wavetops and has a lot of air underneath.


Posted: 18/08/2010 20:00:50
By: Rod & Jo Sceptical
I dont think that an upright rig is ideal when heeled 15 degrees or so as most dinghies are. 15 degrees of rake to windward of the rig gives you an upright rig. The real problem is keeping the foils upright to perform to the maximum. So sail the boat flat with 15 degrees of windward rake on the mast. Wouldn't like to short tack it up the Thames though! Great for long legs and open sea.


Posted: 18/08/2010 22:01:26
By: Barry D
John Dalby did indeed originally have a swinging rig in 3534 to which he had planned to attach a wing mast.  The latter feature was put on hold due to time constraints (not normally a John factor) and john found that there was too much stretch in the wires supporting the mast foot for it to work reliably.  He fairly quickly converted the boat to a deck step rig.  It would have been interesting to have seen what John could have done with this rig.


Posted: 20/08/2010 10:30:40
By: Fat Pig

REPLY

To Reply, please join/renew membership.

Owners Association


Developed & Supported by YorkSoft Ltd

Contact

Merlin Rocket Owners Association
Secretary