Topic : Rudder Shapes, Sizes, Suppliers

Having just purchased 3442 'Armed Forces', I need a lifting rudder. I'd prefer to buy secondhand, but what should I be looking for? what size do I need for a Canterbury Tales, and what are the merits of the various shapes I have seen?
I assume any size variation within reason won't alter the weather helm too much?
Is the good old CeeVee stock strong enough? I saw in a gear guide that some top people are using lifting rudders, what stocks do they use?
If I have to buy new, who should I approach, bearing in mind that I'm not trying to win the nationals, just want something that isn't going to let me down and it will inevitable get scraped, so must be tough and easy to repair?
Thanks for your help,

Posted: 21/02/2010 17:38:45
By: Chris I
You are right, rudders are not significant in weather helm , significant factors are the centre of effort of the rig versus centre of effort of the c/board.

The choice of rudder would mainly be deterimed by sailing location. If you can easily pontoon launch, or sail rudderless easily of your shore (space, not too much waves), and you don't have lots of shallows taht you want to race in to dodge tide, then safest bet is to go with fixed rudder.

If you need a lifting rudder, in the past a CV stock with a Milanes foil would have been OK, but for the last 8 or 10 years the way to go would be a Winder carbon stock & blade, the winder stock is so good it is nearly as good as having a fixed.

You can pick up second hand decent fixed rudders on the second hand list but lifting Winders are rarely seen second hand. If you need a lifting rudder, I'd personally go for the Winder, even if I had to buy new.

Posted: 21/02/2010 20:10:13
By: alanf
I would agree with Alan. It would be worth the expense unless you can buy one secondhand. You never know wht the thread may throw up. After buying such a boat, it would need justification and so would, if myself, only consider the carbon lifting rudder. The other benefit is, you know it will always retain value as others will be looking for them in the future.

Posted: 21/02/2010 20:24:06
By: barnsie
Ive seen 400 rudders on the back of merlins, mainly at salcombe,but they are not the lightest piece of kit,not sure if they fit the jt spacings though.

Posted: 22/02/2010 08:08:34
By: d.h

The spacing between the pintle & gudgeon varies (I suspect the plastic boats are more standard though). Fortunately, most of the stocks have adjustable positioning for the pintle.

We've two rudders - the Milanes (fixed) for "best", but most of the sailing is on a shallow(ish) lake - so we've a less good lifing rudder. That's just got a simple rectangular blade (with a brass rubbing strip in the leading edge of the tip). As long as it's deep enough, the actual shape is a matter of preference.


Posted: 22/02/2010 08:36:10
By: Colin
How does the Winder stock manage to keep a lifting blade as firmly fixed as a fixed blade?

Posted: 22/02/2010 08:58:26
By: Mags
I have always found that the winder lifting rudder stalls out when in heavy breeze. But saying that me and matt are not having this problem with his maybe they have changed abit from the earlier rudders.

Posted: 22/02/2010 09:18:32
By: ben hollis
To answer Mags quetion, Winder use a break-away cleat to hold a downhaul rope on the rudder and it works very well.  I shattered my lifting rudder blade into three sections last year during the training at Rutland when the CV or similar stock failed to lift as we were coming ashore.  An expensive purchase but very much worth it.

Posted: 22/02/2010 12:26:46
By: Midlander
I have had (still have one for that matter) a series of CV stock rudders and without fail the blade has come up.  I did have a break-away cleat and hold down line on the last but even so the blade would come up a bit in vigorous conditions generally on a spinny reach in waves and it is nigh on impossible to keep control without a vertical rudder blade.  Despite removing the transom on at least a couple of memorable occasions I have stuck with the fixed, one less thing to go wrong.  The Winder stocks are properly engineered and do actually work though.

Posted: 22/02/2010 16:22:14
By: Andrew M
Unfortunately my home club has fairly shallow tidal water, a fixed rudder is just not an option. Sounds like I'd better start saving up for a Winder stock and blade. In the meantime I might be able to use the rudder from the 400, but they're not the strongest, the blade is a very thin skin of glass. I'll need some light weather to learn a new boat anyway.
The fixed rudder on 'Armed Forces' is probably about 4-6 inches deeper than an RS rudder, but less chord. It suggests to me that the boat needs a lot to control it!
Is there a consensus on the best outline shape and sections?

Posted: 22/02/2010 17:04:47
By: ChrisI
From memory James Davies bought Armed Froces one of Linton Jenkins carbon fixed rudders. Pat and I used one on Cool Cookie when it breezed up as we felt it gave a little more control, very nice bit of kit.

If you're insistent on a Winder lifting rudder you should be able to get a couple of quid for the current fixed rudder, pop it on the for sale list.

Posted: 22/02/2010 17:11:31
By: Alex
I have a fixed winder rudder that i would sell.

I am planning to send it to winders shortly to be converted into a lifting rudder, as i have no need for a fixed rudder, but i do need a new lifting one.

Email me if interested.

Posted: 22/02/2010 20:06:39
By: Dave
When you are rocking about in F6 and a bit of swell after rounding Blackstone and putting the kite up you will find out why JT made his fixed rudders as deep as that.  I'd hang onto it for open meetings, the current Winder fixed rudder is a pretty similar shape though it adds a delicate little beak on the end for control of the tip vortex

Posted: 23/02/2010 08:28:13
By: Andrew M
I've picked up a second hand lifting rudder for 3381, Seventh Wave, a Jon Turner MSN4.  I intend to use this on the Thames, but I'm definitely keeping my original Jon Turner fixed rudder for open water.

Posted: 23/02/2010 11:33:09
By: fribbs
I don't think the downhaul rope is the key to making a good lifting rudder. Isn't the crucial element a pair of cheeks that keep the blade rock solid?

Posted: 23/02/2010 11:58:49
By: Mags
I have just had my Winder Lifting rudder to pieces and the blade is such a good fit in the stock that I could bearly get it out. It really is a good peice of engineering (if you can call it that). Having hit the ground a couple of times with a fixed rudder I would not go back particularly since my Winder Lifter does not come up or move even without the string in the cleat.

That would be my recommendation, but they are rare. I did get one secondhand from the forum and sold it again from the forun in about 2 seconds!!

Posted: 23/02/2010 12:20:32
By: Jez3645
Do Winder's have a website? for some reason I can't find it!

Posted: 23/02/2010 13:07:16
By: ChrisI
How much longer is a JT rudder than a winder one, if it's not a daft question?

Posted: 23/02/2010 13:19:56
By: KM
A "Wicked" looking lifting rudder. 
Second picture in here:

Posted: 23/02/2010 14:07:53
By: ChrisJ
I don't think they have a website. You can call them though on 01535 604980 and they can point you in the right direction. Otherwise you might find pictures on the pinnell and bax website as they retail them I think.

Posted: 23/02/2010 14:21:50
By: Jez3645
Wicked's rudder is a Laurie Smart one in a standard Winder Carbon lifting stock, stayed down well in Salcombe last year and no noticeable cavitation

Posted: 23/02/2010 18:00:50
By: rob 3708

Posted: 23/02/2010 20:09:46
By: //
No Winders don't have a web site. I guess they are too busy building great boats to worry about that.

Contact details are:-

Winder Boats
Kensington Street, Keighley, West Yorkshire, BD21 1PW
01535 604980
[email protected]

Posted: 23/02/2010 22:40:48
By: alanf


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