MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Merlin for 26 stone lumps?

Hi.

Two reasonably experianced dinghy sailors with a small weight/age problem (26 stone+ and 50years old+/-).

We are looking for a Merlin which we can race, mainly at club level but with a view to open/ nat champs at some future stage. We sail on the Hamble/Southampton water.

Having read through your website and had a look at what is for sail, could anyone advise as to the suitability of an NSM4?

Thanks


Posted: 02/12/2009 12:11:59
By: Chris Robinson
Chris, I think the first question that possible responders will want answered is, "what sort of budget are we talking about here?".


Posted: 02/12/2009 12:16:48
By: Alistair
Hi Alistair, thanks for the reply. 

I think around �2000.


Posted: 02/12/2009 12:22:59
By: Chris Robinson
Chris,

When will you be at Hamble next? There has been an ongoing debate in the King and Queen of late (the pub now is recognised as a yacht club....) about reintroducing Merlins to Hamble BUT.....

the BUT being that most of us are in the same 'league' as yourself, both in stature and age. To date we've got Plastique (3224), a Rowsell Smokers (3025), the famous 'Godfather' 3031 is in a shed nearby and at least one other punter is a constant watcher on e-bay, waiting for the right boat to come along. The common factor in all these boats is that they carry weight better than the newer variants. If you're going to be in Hamble any time soon, say and we'll meet you at the K&Q.
Further rumours abound that Dennis Fisher, once he sees Merlins back on the river, will not be able to resist the temptation.... and another rumour (as in - I've seen the pictures) is that a famous one-off remains hidden in a barn just waiting for the call back to action.

I know that consumption of Wadsworth 6x will hardly solve the weight problem but the conversation at the bar could be interesting!!!

Shout if you'll be about at all

Dougal


Posted: 02/12/2009 14:01:42
By: david Henshall
I would suggest an NSM2 would be a better modern weight carrier, would suggest a Jon Turner or Smart variant if available


Posted: 02/12/2009 14:18:43
By: Rob-3708
Thanks for the replies.


Rob.
In the old "which design" page http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/design%20guide/page02.html#Which%20Design

it says "Light to medium weights sail NSM 4 and the heavier crews sail NSM 2, NSM 4 or perhaps an Ian Holt boat designed to carry more weight such as Riders on the Storm."

So the choice in our range seems to be between the 2 or the 4. Is it best to have a carbon rig or will ally suit us better?

Dougal.
Long time, no see. The brains/money/driver will be Tim Powell. We are both on the faster side of the river but a trip to the K&Q is always do-able.

Is there a hidden cache of boats for sale to suit the fuller figure?


Posted: 02/12/2009 14:45:33
By: Chris Robinson
I would have said that an NSM2 would be a better bet for carrying that weight, however the NSM4 is slightly beamier and flatter for the Hamble waters. I would have thought that the NSM4 would carry that weight well enough and would make much better use of it should you decide to travel to the champs. You can pick up a nice one with a carbon rig for sub 2k. I think 3389 White Whale is still on the list as is 3411 both of which have carbon.

Good luck.


Posted: 02/12/2009 14:52:17
By: Jez3645
3438 NSM2 although not a carbon rig, Should be fine. Mould came from a well known boat. Seventh Heaven.


Posted: 02/12/2009 14:59:51
By: Northern Merlin
Don't discount the Bad COmpany and variants thereof - if you are up against boats of that vintage this design was very successful - I recall we won at Hollingworth with 28+ stone on board!! You will fly to windward but it will be a battle downwind!
NSM4's get a bit sticky when loaded up - but wonderful in a good breeze!


Posted: 02/12/2009 15:25:38
By: Peter Scott
Or if you were really radical how about a Type 42 - NSM 2 under the water and NSM4 above the waterline


Posted: 02/12/2009 15:58:25
By: combination
I can certainly endorse Type 42, a great boat and one of the best I ever owned. Phil Morrison may have different views but I think it was more than just a flared NSM2. A delight to sail in all wind strengths and suspect with a carbon rig could have been even faster. I think this has now been done.
To my knowledge, only John Dalby and myself had 42s so you may have to wait a while for one to come to the market. Deep Thought was a beautiful boat-look at Kevin Driver's web site and you see her being fettled up.


Posted: 02/12/2009 16:27:59
By: Chris Rathbone
Thanks for all your help looks like the seventh heaven nsm2 3438 gives us most of what we want two questions help please - 

how signifiocant is it not having the carbon spars ?
Can anybody help with the variable handicap bit ? I hear there is an allowance in club fleets at handicap for age - is this right does it affect any choices ?

Thankyou - good to hear there might be a fleet again at Hamble would make it all the more worthwhile

Has Denis Fisher fianlly stopped taking new A levels every year?


Posted: 02/12/2009 17:05:25
By: Tim Powell
Chris,

au contraire - you and Tim P would never get through passport control, we don't just let anyone in to Hamble you know.

Far be it from me to piddle on your good idea but Tim and Merlins don't mix! The last time he was in one was crewing me at Ullswater. We hit a rich vein of form and decided to celebrate that night on draught Stella Artois. All I can remember is the trolly dolly driving us all the way home the following day..... you may care to remind Tim of that.

But a warsash based Merlin...doesn't compute I'm afraid. Just like it says in the film, 'leave the dark side'....we'll see you in the King and Queen (with or without Tim)

When?

D


Posted: 02/12/2009 17:08:32
By: david Henshall
I thought the only place available to still race dinghies on the Hamble was Warsash unless we go for Foxers ?

Good to know you people in the west have long memories that still work


Posted: 02/12/2009 17:12:42
By: Tim Powell
I remeber racing against 3438, cant remeber for the life of me where (I think Hunts?) She was fast, much faster than us in our smokers, she looked pretty good to, well as good as a plastic boat can :P I think she represents alot of boat/kit for the money. By the sounds of what you need, she should fit the bill, just make sure the Mast and boom are at least a decent tin rig. Good luck!


Posted: 02/12/2009 17:21:00
By: Old Merliner
Enchantment would fit your weight zone and also is incredibly stable as she is a little wider on the waterline aft than some of the other boats in this generation. Although a one off, she is still capable of tonking on new boats, comes with carbon stick and almost idenitcal sails as the current National Champion. Best Classic Boat last two Nationals. Probably spent £4K on her in the last two years what with the one string, etc.

Willing to entertain offers as the missus is demanding a new kitchen ... ho hum.


Posted: 02/12/2009 18:39:00
By: Andy Hay - 3626 Business as Usual
Tim,

Be careful what you wish for..... would you want the whole world to know that you managed to get a bartop full of empty glasses inside your sailing jacket. The boat was the one off designed for use at Hamble, 3199, the 'Credit Card' design from Mike Burnham. A decent rig - and a good helm and that boat could really fly!

Have a picture of you in the aforesaid 3199 - Chew Valley springs to mind!

D


Posted: 02/12/2009 19:06:42
By: david Henshall
David do you know anything about the Enchantment mentioned above ?

And any way that wasn't me


Posted: 02/12/2009 19:29:14
By: Tim powell
Any body know anything about the enchantment 3386 it appears to carry the weight (26stone) and has all the goodies - appreciate any views thanks


Posted: 02/12/2009 20:53:19
By: Tim powell
For Mr Rathbone,

As the current co-owner of Deep Thought has had another refurbishment since then, and is still a fabulous sail. Ben Archer had Kevin carbonise her, and we ahve since added a winder rudder, and a hoop as well as having the decks taken back to wood and epoxied and the hull refurbed.

cheers

Rich


Posted: 03/12/2009 08:20:52
By: Rich
Rich thanks for this clarification re  enchantment she is working her way up our list Tim


Posted: 03/12/2009 08:43:52
By: Tim powell
Try talking to Chris Rathbone. He had Enchantment designed and built for himself so will know all about her.

[email protected]

Andy has done allot of work to her and she was always a good boat although was never really tested at the highest level so remained a little unknown. Given how she has performed since Andy modernised her she would cirtainly have given the other designs a run for their money in the right conditions. Given your budget though the NSM2 might be a better option.

Having competed against the first 4 (of 5 I think?) owners of Deep thought whilst sailing her, she is still a good boat and was always pretty. She has a Carbon Rig but needs deck stepping really. If you can get your hands on a Type 42 I would highly recommend them, however I very much doubt you will get one!!


Posted: 03/12/2009 08:43:58
By: Jez3645
Enchantment was certainly holding her own against more modern boats at Looe last year, sailing in my bit of the fleet.  Not up there with the leaders of course but you would need another £5000 on your budget for that.  Looking just at the results, not quite so good at Whitstable this year but that may partly reflect a smaller fleet particularly at the back end, or that the design is a bit better in a breeze, or that Andy's boathandling in windy conditions more than compensated for the lack of absolute downwind boatspeed.  Very well equipped and maintained for a boat of that generation - controls all worked and what broke was fixed properly not bodged.  An unusual design with quite low freeboard aft IIRC


Posted: 03/12/2009 09:46:41
By: Andrew M
Riders on the Storm was a very impressive boat for that generation but there were very few boats built to that and similar Holt designs, you would be lucky to find one.  Better wt carriers than Summer Wine/Gnome but still very quick planing, which is the downside of the NSM2 & to some extent the 4.  Thin Ice would suit you well if you can find one - never popular but won Salcombe week and carries weight


Posted: 03/12/2009 11:15:38
By: Andrew M
Enchantment was designed to carry a lot of weight. The design was modified (the stern was dropped)and this improved the downwind performance. Certainly a forgiving boat to sail in heavy winds but we did win the odd bit of glassware on the circuit with her, including an Open Meeting win at Thames and 5th or 6th on aggregate in one of the Tideway races.
I think Andy has done a lot of work on her and as long as you don't expect to win the Championships (given her age), you'll have an excellent boat.


Posted: 03/12/2009 12:00:21
By: Chris Rathbone
As a former owner of 3412 (on the SH list for a sensible price) I can confirm that it carries weight OK (well tested at 26 stone by me) and was pretty well screwed together.  The builder was building exotic foam sandwich racing craft at the time he made the boat - it is very well made!  Sounds like it's had a bit of work since I sold it (deck stepped mast etc) would even leave some room in the £2k budget for sails etc. 

It was a few years back when I sold it - so you would need to have a good look for yourself. But the glass hull is a huge advantage over wooden planks - unless you class scrapping the varnish off the lands on a winters evening as "fun". Wooden deck looked nice when I sold it!
IanL


Posted: 03/12/2009 13:17:50
By: IanL
Wishing for diversions from work have had a look at the results from the last year or so opens and Salcombe and the Nats.  Very few older boats sailing altogether, a Smokers at the back of the fleet in Whitstable, none that finished more than one or two races at Looe.  Salcombe there were 2 boats I think are NSM4, 3403 & 3404.  Both struggled in the breeze but James in the Fridge 3403 also lost a result by breaking his mast and both finished in the 60's.  3339 Tim Male's Summer Wine with a modern rig finished in the top 1/2 but also broke a mast, 1978 a Mk IXb was 63rd, 2 Heaven Sent's in the 50's virtually the whole of the rest of the fleet CT Let it Ride and variants thereof.  Not sure what it tells you about boatspeed except that the vast bulk of the fleet has moved on from the NSM/Summer Wine/Gnome


Posted: 03/12/2009 15:13:38
By: Andrew M
Interesting point Andrew makes and for 2010 there arrears to be a revival of 'older' designs appearing on the Salcombe entry list:Proctor XVI(1695) NSM1(3194); NSM2(3291, 3333 and 3339); NSM4(3403,3404 and 3430) and a Summer Wine (3339)


Posted: 03/12/2009 16:01:46
By: John Murrell
I think as an *outsider" it looks like there are a number of very well equipped excellent boats that whilst not competitive in the nationals represent excellent value and a great sailing experience - 

In 1973 ? I did the nationals at Poole in a boat numbered in the 14xx - goal was top 100 on one day which was achieved just (light winds) and this made the whole week worth while fact that Rodney Patterson only made the top 12 one day helped a lot!
There were also lots of prizes then for older boats in bands of numbers up the fleet - certainly encouraged tough competition all through the fleet

I know Chris and I wouldn't be competitive even in a top boat so the dilemna remains about age design rig and budget
As we will probably do a lot of handicap sailing I am beginning to think an older boat with the extra 10 on the rating might be the best plan

If we turn out to be superstars we can always save our pennies and get a new one later
Choices tonight seem to be white whale versus enchantment versus the cheapest canterbury Tales we can find

Thanks for all your help the pond is not quite so muddy tonight

I


Posted: 03/12/2009 17:12:46
By: Tim powell
It's the recession John.

In fact there were more older boats at Looe than I thought, Miss Laid 3078 completed at least most races including a finish in the 20's. Have a feeling it's a Smoker's.


Posted: 03/12/2009 17:13:40
By: Andrew M
Mislaid was a Winder Disguys (I think), their result in the 20s was due to them giving it absolute beans and sailing a blinder. We had a result in the 30s, top 10 round the windward mark before the kicker jammed on ... what might have been!

Can certainly confirm that there were a lot less old boats at Whitstable (all behind us). Disappointed with the result at Whitstable, but then again did have to count a DNS and have a DNS for a discard as we chickened out on the windy day.


Posted: 03/12/2009 18:27:35
By: Andy Hay - 3626 Business as Usual
There is another side to this! Maybe some of the older helms still get that wonderful feeling from sailing such a responsive boat (in my case a Smokers). When I'm not sailing that I'm often in a 505 or Contender, but for me the 'best' sailing I get is in the Merlin.

I'm more than aware that from the core Merlin viewpoint, 3025 is way past being competitive (with the alloy, hog stepped rig it can still be okay for club handicap racing) and almost certainly would be shown up by those older boats that have been retro-fitted with carbon masts.

Think the idea of a price limited fleet at Hamble could be a good laugh, am looking forward to it!
D


Posted: 03/12/2009 19:57:49
By: david Henshall
Sounds a good idea I met a bloke once (honest) who said he raced cars at the weekend - I forget the name of the sport - popular in Denmark or some such - but the main rule was that at the end of each day you could make an offer for anyone else's car if you offered the magic figure  (in their case Eu 2000) then the rules said you had to sell your car - effectively killed all arms races and according to him created excellent cheap racing with the focus on simple reliability and good driving - not the spirit of a development class at the leading edge but interesting thought for those of us who just love sailing good boats. Having sailed with the Hamble Mafia in his boat 3025 years ago in handicap fleets  I vote for the fun factor and the simplicity of just going sailing ! David I think the boats we are looking at will fit into the Hamble criteria ok ?


Posted: 04/12/2009 08:35:24
By: Tim powell
Like a Selling Plate in horse racing you can of course always buy it back yourself!


Posted: 04/12/2009 09:40:03
By: .
Just a slight correction to Andrews Post. Tim Male was sailing his Summer Wine at Salcombe with a tin hog stepped rig and still came in the top 50 boats. DOn't know how he gets that boat to go so fast!!


Posted: 04/12/2009 10:42:56
By: Jez3645
Talent?


Posted: 04/12/2009 12:23:20
By: John Murrell
Unfortunately I do Jeremy.  He points it in the right direction, works hard and makes fewer mistakes!


Posted: 04/12/2009 12:43:16
By: Andrew M
They do seem to have some talent those two don't they. It is good to see an older boat being sailed so well.


Posted: 04/12/2009 15:41:26
By: Jez3645
3205 Elan and 3316 Blow Job 2 both Summer Wines made the gold fleet at Salc. in consecutive years.Both boats over 20 years old and both boats were carrying weight, 3316 25st.


Posted: 04/12/2009 21:45:58
By: Broz
Thank you for all the help we are now the owners of Andy's old boat Enchantment 

Have sailed it twice and almost worked out what everything does - thanks to Andy it all seems to do what it says on the can tricky bit now is to learn quickly what we want them all to do !!

Apparently the sails are the same as last years champ boat and the mast is a deck stepped fibre

we have sailed it twice with two different set ups first time jib halliard was hiked in to about 4 " off the deck next sail about 9" amazingly (?) didn't notice much difference helm wise - maybe a little faster as the breeze grew on second setting better pointing but still feel we are underpowered and not yet on the pace especially upwind but some flashes of speed upwind (more kicker) and downwind tighter reach in breeze

Is there a rig guide anywhere ie fore and aft adjustment kicker shrouds and inners etc obviously we need to get our own tuning record going but would like to save some time if we can

Andy if you are there can you help with a quick idiots guide

All being well will be at the warming pan which should give us the chance to learn

Any news on the other Hamble boats hitting the water ?
There is an Australian handicap at warsash starting January ......
seasons greetings and thanks again for all your help


Posted: 27/12/2009 16:52:49
By: Tim Powell
Glad to hear that the old girl is getting some use! Sails are one iteration away from Glen's, but he assured me that the differences are negligable.

Settings:

Jib halyard to deck until you feel overpowered. Then ease it back on the one string until control is restored. Shrouds tight enough to stop the leeward one moving. Lowers slightly more tricky, but you are looking for a relatively straight mast. Get Chris to take a sight along it every now and then. Kicker - you probably need more than you think - it took us a while to get on enough but ensure that the lowers are on to suit. The gearing is about right on the one string, but you might need to ease off the shrouds before trying to move is on the fly - and the sheets too!

Downwind is all about pole height and centreboard up.

Give me a ring if you need to run through anything. Cheers, Andy


Posted: 27/12/2009 21:26:13
By: Andy Hay - 3626 Business as Usual
really pleased to see Andys boat go to a good home after all the effort he put into her, hope you get loads of fun out of her!!


Posted: 29/12/2009 22:47:22
By: d.h.
Thanks both 
settings make sense and consistent with pictures which showed too much rake in rig

am just patching up varnish then there are a couple of races at warsash before the warming pan at Hamble

Just want to see how fast those modern boys and girls are !

Andy would like to talk to you about the hull drawings and how shape differs from latest boats - Chris anxious to start playing with the hull I think we will sail it as is and have a go next winter when we understand things a bit better

Tim


Posted: 03/01/2010 11:48:35
By: Tim
We are hoping to attend the Warming Pans, assuming our fine ship makes it through the Dinghy Show without too many scratches. So we can have a chat then over a pint ...

Cheers Andy


Posted: 03/01/2010 19:58:29
By: Andy Hay - 3626 Business as Usual
Hi fellas we have a few problems 26 stone is too much for the lovely enchantment - if we are honest its probably closer to a 28 stone problem and despite gym and no snacks it just wont work for us

we have had some great races in the breeze and recorded some good handicap results at warsash but no other merlins have turned up

Think its time to pass her onto someone lighter

could take a laser (for a friend honest) in p ex

any interest out there ? Tim 07768017234


Posted: 06/08/2010 06:06:40
By: Tim Powell
I would have turned up if I'd had crew!


Posted: 07/08/2010 08:15:31
By: John 2434

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