Been very impressed with the level of discussion on the new 3 length rules. We have many learned and helpful people reading this forum who can point us in the right direction on racing rules. Can they please advise regarding "hook finishes" in relation to the RSS definition of "finishing". I am sure that some years ago there was an appeal case where a boat sailed across a shortened course finish line from the direction of the last mark without doing a "hook finish" as the RO intended. The boat was re-instated.

This case seems to have disappeared from the ISAF list of appeals. What happened? Are "hook finishes" now deemed acceptable? Should we be not bothered? If all boats do a hook finish, can one boat crossing from the direction of the last mark protest them for finishing incorrectly according to the definition? What do the Rules Gurus think please?

Surely it should be easy to tell what the OOD intends by where the finish boat is. On port rounding course if boat is to the right then you just pass the mark to port and cross the line. If the boat is on the left then you would need to do hook finish.

We normally use gates at Shoreham. However when we run opens with 2 classes we often finish at the leeward mark in the first race. In this case we just sail straight across the line, i.e. don't use hook finishes.

The definitions at the front of the present Rules state that, to finish, a boat "crosses the finish line in the direction of the course from the last mark."  A hook finish line is therefore illegal.  

I'm not certain whether the definition has been changed in the 2009 Rules.

Not so - assuming a shortened course, if the boat is on the left you cross the line leaving the mark to starboard.

Hook finishes are a definite no no and can lead to all sorts of aggro.  The problem does not arise often with committee boat finishes but can do when you have fixed lines from shore. At Whitstable when we use the club line we always lay a spacer mark which you have to go round before crossing the finish line specifically to avoid a hook finish. I believe Dan Alsop fell foul of a hook finish some years ago (I think at the Hastings open) and went to Appeal.  Perhaps he could comment.

Sorry, I should have said - not so Ross!  I agree with Mike Anslow.

Although any race committee would be silly to do that (lie to port of a port rounding mark), as it confuses the fleet and if there were boats a lap behind the finish mark would be left to stb and the same mark (as a mark of the course) would be left to port, that make some interesting mark rounding rules.This happened at Bala inlands a few years back, the committee boat intended to lie to stb of a port mark, but when they saw the gybe that lead boat were on realised that the sail number were hidden due to the angle of the boom (the only valid case I have heard for sail numbers on the spin), so they quickly up-anchored and wizzed round to the port side. The result, confusion, half the fleet hooked finished, I think the race results were eventually thrown out.

Best practice, in my humble opinion, don't set the start or finish line off marks of the course.

The definition at the end for a finish is correct for a normal course, but is 'contradicted' when a shortened course is used by rule 32.2 "If the race committee signals a shortened course (displays flag S with
two sounds), the finishing line shall be,
(a) at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying
flag S;"

By my interpretation, a rounding mark is a rounding mark and has to be passed as per the rounding direction of the course and therefore is the last mark of the course, therefore there is no 'direction from the last mark', so it has to be passed on its correct side no matter 'how far round' the committee boat is => the committee boat can create a 'hook finish' on a shortened course.

The rules are the same for current and next year?  Is there any case or guidance on this?

It stops being a rounding mark as soon as it becomes one end of a finihing line. Because you don't have to round it of course, what you have to do is to touch the line.

Oh, and if the line is pretty much parallel to the direction from the last mark you can cross either way!!

Case 45, doesn't deal with the shortened course, but is clear if you SET a hook finish then it is 'an improper action' of the race committee. In which case, the apeal effectively allowed boats to finish in both directions, as redress that the race committee decided on (to finish them all what ever direction they crossed from) did not materially or adversely affect the overall positions either way => was fair redress.

But Jim, that is an interpretation.

The rule could be more precise
"at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying"
is admitting it IS a rounding mark 
the rule perhaps should be
"at a mark that has previously been used as a rounding mark but is now a finish line mark, between the mark and a staff displaying, which should be cross from the direction of the last mark, unless the direction of the last mark is directly behind you in which case you may cross the line in any direction" :-)

Replying to.. I know this rule and appeal pretty well. It involved the last race of the X boat fleet at Cowes week for the Captains Cup in 1986. I had won the week if David Bedford finished lower than 12th. We watched 25 boats finish in front of Bedford, we were 3 boats behind him. We retired, opened the champagne and headed for Lymington. The crew was my wife Carol, Ned Sparrow and Russel Bell so it was a good celebration. At 10 in the evening we received a call that Bedford had protested because all 25 boats in front of him had done a hooked finish and he decided to finish, from the direction of the last mark. He protested and won and so took the Captains Cup. It then went to appeal and he lost it and so we had won the Captains cup. He then re- appealed and finally ISAF found in his favour. The race officer had put the committee boat in line with the last mark so that he could finish boats from different classes coming from different directions. All very complicated but it all went wrong when the committee boat drifted 10 yards on the tide thus making the hook finish for the X boat finishers, which is illegal. The turning mark becomes a finishing mark and so you must comply with the definition of finishing.     'A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line in the direction from the last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 31.2 or 44.2 or, under rule 28.1 after correcting an error made at the finishing line.'

Would the committee boat not anchored securely be regarded as an improper action of the race committee, and as per 'case 45' redress could have been given to people who finished on the 'now' wrong side of the line.?

Given the case book now, would you have re-won the cup on a re-re-appeal?

I think you are right. I was not involved as I had retired and I had to leave it up to the 25 boats that finished in front of David Bedford to protest, appeal or defend. They didn't follow up the improper actions of the race committee. We felt pretty hard done by at the time but thats sailing. Ned and Russel just opened another bottle to comiserate.

My thanks to everyone who contributed and tried to enlighten me. What a can of worms! I had no idea Mr Barry D was involved in the original case, and it would appear that setting any "hook finish" could count as a mistake by the Race Committee and competitors would be free to cross in either direction, allbeit those not coming from the direction of the last mark does not satisfy the RRS definition. Sorry to hear Mr D lost the Trophy on that occasion, but I hope he won several other times. Thanks again.

Ar yes, I remember it well....

I have had two hoohars with hook finishes in the Merlin fleet, and countless others at club level where perhaps the ignorance can better be excused.

At Hastings a few years back I was the only boat to finish correctly, the rest all hooked,  but I got the chop for my troubles.  On appeal to the RYA I won and the others had their positions adjusted but were not disqualified. A fair decision I think.

At Bala the same sort of thing happened and I won redress.  However a certain person who had not had a very good race put in for secondary redress and managed to get the race nobbed, much to my disgust as I lost a top place.  I can't remember on what grounds the second redress request was made.  

A word of caution - if you are the only one to finish correctly and you try to get all the rest nobbed you will have to buy your own drinks for a very long time.

Capn Hook

Human nature! Dan presents the realistic side of the world Barry and the proest and be damned crowd an idealistic world where the greater good is served. I would like to think Barry & Co were right, however I think Dan represents reality.
The real answer is that if the Race Organisers get it right there is no problem.
Voltaire was right.

The reality is that if you do not protest, the guys who cheat will get away with it because of your lethargy. Any rule infringement that you see or have served upon you should result in a penalty taken, a protest or a retirement. At least Dan protested and won which was the right outcome. Everyone learnt and hook finishes should be a thing of the past. We had exatly the same scenario at Lymington,a hook finish, I protested and the race officers and competitors gained some useful rules knowledge. To sail in a fleet where rules are observed, used to advantage and penalties taken where appropriate, is a real pleasure.

Just one question, can one seek arbitration with the race committee rather than protest, or is it reserved for between the competitors incidents? 
I ask this because: 
a.) I cannot find it in the rules old or new; and 
b.) it seems a lot of these disputes concern errors or misunderstandings between the race organisers and the competitors.
The same logic would seem to apply and it would be equitable.
The nub of this is that no matter how keen or stringent one is on rules,protests- or not to protest if it becomes a chore and ceases to be fun people will stop racing, either within that class, club or country which will be very sad. 
To paraphrase - ("I know the medicine is good for me nanny, but I would sooner stay constipated!")

Clearly the hook finish is a good example of the good use of protests to correct an issue.

I think we would all agree that the difficult protests are on the less definitive things such as
- claiming water where the call is marginal
- tacking in someone's water
- Rule 42 infingements
This is where I think sailor needs more on the water help. For instance I have sailed nearly every week for about 30 years at over 40 different venues, in many open events and national events, in several different classes, and only once seen a race committee member get in a motor boat and chastise (note: not protest) some one rocking and rolling, and never seen an official judge on the water during fleet racing.

A real example. I was in my Laser (because no one will crew me except RB and we will have to wait for a windy day), and there was a fitful wind. We just started up the beat, and the boat that won the last race, was 7th and I was 2nd at the time, seemed to be catching me like crazy, my local wind had dropped to close to zero, so I guess he has his own little gust. 
As he came up to leeward, 2 meters below me, I though I will be able to hold him off. But no, guess what, he seems to have little gusts requiring him to role his boat subtly. As he moves his body agin, I call to him, 'there is no wind to respond to!', he looks at me with another couple of little movements pulls ahead and 30 seconds later he is clear ahead AND 2 meters to windward. As he passes me I 'protest' saying that rule 42 is being broken as he is rolling his boat not in response to the wind. His response is 'he wasn't aware' and he was doing nothing. He eventually won the race, and the open meeting.

Now, I am not CERTAIN that he was 'really' breaking rule 42, this wasn't big rolls and pumps. Was he just a much more sensitive (to the wind) sailor than me? 

What would you do? To me, protesting was not an option, sour grapes, bad loser and other thoughts go through my mind. In that circumstance, I think that some impartial observer making a call would have been effective and suitable.

I can see no reason why arbitration cannot be used with a race committee. In 'Arbitration' two sides bring a dispute to an individual who makes a decision based upon a pre-agreed set of rules. Either side then has the right to refuse the arbitrator's decision and continue with a protest hearing. The arbitrator might recommend that a protest hearing is the right way to proceed. If a race committee can be shown that they have made an error, they can then have the opportunity to set it right.

On the water judges, who are specially trained to enforce rule 42, are available if classes want them.    I am qualified and I think another 50 or 60 judges have taken the course. The RYA have a list.

Typically what does an on the water judge/umpire cost then?

Typically its done for love + out of pocket expenses. Most times an evening meal and accomodation would be provided if staying overnight.