MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Merlin weekend at MINIMA YC

7th and 8th June
Saturday - VINTAGE open and part of the De May Vintage series. (Chindit Trophy)
Sunday - OPEN event and part of the Thames Valley series. (Eric Archer Memorial Trophy)
Both days will be 3 races with 2 to count / 1 discard. First race both days - 11.00 am start. easy launching from Mddx bank; food and bar avilable. Please follow email link for any other information.


Posted: 29/05/2008 16:11:42
By: Ben 2529
Points to be sored - but you do need to be there !


Posted: 02/06/2008 10:40:29
By: Ben 2529
Will Minima be hosting a jazz band party on the Saturday evening? I sadly missed it last year because I was unaware it was taking place. Hope to join in both Sat and Sun this weekend. Mike


Posted: 02/06/2008 18:50:16
By: Mike Stephens
Hi Mike
Sorry! No Jazz band this year - The solo and Ent brigade are at a team race and combined open (plus social)at Twickenham same weekend - but the bar will be open !!
Mike, if my memory is correct you have the Eric Archer Memorial trophy - You can only win it again if you remember to bring it with you !!
Ben


Posted: 02/06/2008 22:53:11
By: Ben 2529
Ben, is champagne still on offer for the winner of Sunday?


Posted: 03/06/2008 16:31:14
By: Richard (3233)
Richard, Are you going up to Minima, Champagne notwithstanding ?


Posted: 04/06/2008 16:56:34
By: JohnB (3404)
Yes John. Was planning on doing both days but can only make the Sunday now.  It'll be good if you can make it as well.


Posted: 05/06/2008 09:45:47
By: Richard (3233)
Would anyone be available to crew me in Diabolo on Saturday at Minima? My daughter/crew has a bad tummy bug and is unlikely to be fit.
Thanks,
Nick


Posted: 05/06/2008 12:53:04
By: Nick 214
How does the river look over there? We are currently not allowed on it here.


Posted: 05/06/2008 20:14:31
By: Jeremy & Jo Deacon
We managed to have a race last night at Tamesis.  The stream was less than Wednesday night when the Environment Agency had issued a warning.  Looks like a bit of wind tomorrow and Sunday, so should be ok.  Come along and see what it's like Jeremy.


Posted: 06/06/2008 08:58:20
By: Richard (3233)
Church bells and Salvation Army Bands on Sunday evening still?


Posted: 06/06/2008 09:30:00
By: Ancient Geek
Crew sorted, looking forward to tomorrow.
Thanks,
Nick


Posted: 06/06/2008 13:58:51
By: Nick 214
Thank you Richard - a Thursday eve. race at Tamesis is encouraging. Obviously we have more stream than ordered but possible 9mph wind. Anything in the north should give a run against the flow on our reach.


Posted: 06/06/2008 17:09:44
By: Ben 2529
Well there weren't church bells and Salvation Army bands on Sunday evening, but there was champagne, sun and sparkling sailing conditions despite the strong stream.  Fortunately, as Ben commented, the wind was strong enough and in the right direction (northerly) giving everyone a run against the stream, together with a fast beat with it down river to Kingston Bridge.

On behalf of the Tamesis visitors, thanks to Ben and everyone at Minima YC for hosting a great weekend's sailing on the Thames.


Posted: 09/06/2008 09:53:00
By: Richard (3233)
Minima YC Thames Series report on Y&Y

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=141752

Posted: 12/06/2008 10:01:53
By: .
Glad you enjoyed it the picture make me all nostalgic, pity about the Band and the Bells though, no coppers leaning on bikes either then!


Posted: 12/06/2008 11:08:21
By: Ancient Geek
Actually, sometimes the odd policeman/woman or two do go by on their bikes.  These days, though, they ride the mountain variety and wear cycling shorts and bike helmets rather than the traditional woodentop.


Posted: 12/06/2008 11:18:09
By: Richard (3233)
Should there be a picture of someone not wearing a life jacket / buoyancy aid racing a Merlin Rocket?


Posted: 12/06/2008 14:50:19
By: Policeman
Minima Y.C. does have a clear sfaety policy which is under the direction of the R.O. The wearing of buoyancy is a matter of prevailing conditons - stream, wind, water temp etc. safety of competitors and those who may have to assist them. A compulsory buoyancy flag is available should conditions be judged to need this. This a decision based upon the prevailing conditions not the class of boat being raced - is there a problem with this, or the fundamental rules of sailing? Did 'policemean' deserve his back
dated award ?


Posted: 12/06/2008 23:00:44
By: Ben 2529
The question being whether anyone came to harm through the lack of a buoyancy aid sailing on a narrow river on a hot day.  Or whether anyone can produce evidence of it being something which is so risky that compulsion is appropriate to avoid the costs to society of the rescue and the medical care which might ensue.  We are not talking about motorbikes and crash helmets, I suggest dinghy sailing has an extraordinary record of safety, particularly so inland.


Posted: 13/06/2008 09:13:50
By: Andrew M
I learned to sail dinghies at Minima in the 50s so as AG suggests seeing those photos brings back happy memories of long fun filled summer holidays playing on the River in our Cadets. Typical games were sailing backwards races or races without rudders, playing 'he' through the bridge arches, races with compulsory capsizes etc. No adults, no lifejackets, no H & S. No wonder Minima Cadets won two of the first three Cadet Weeks.


Posted: 13/06/2008 09:24:04
By: Robert Harris
Every time anyone publishes a photo that shows no buoyancy aid, there is always someone who asks the question. These people seem more interested in moaning than finding out what the SIs said at the time...


Posted: 13/06/2008 14:52:39
By: Mags
With this kind of publicity, perhaps Minima will stop being, as Sunday's winner Alan Markham commented, "one of the Thames's best kept secrets".


Posted: 13/06/2008 15:32:47
By: Richard (3233)
I feel that MYC is being victimised by 'Policemean'. I didn't have to look further than the rotating pics on our front page to find MR sailors without buoyancy aids!! Perhaps we can flush him out to identify himself - a helicopter pilot or perhaps RYA level 2 (Enterprise/topper)!!


Posted: 14/06/2008 00:44:45
By: Ben 2529
Clubs I have belonged to have all had life jackets compulsory rules. Mind you most have either been very cold water or tidal clubs.  However,rivers are dangerous places too.  A crack on the head from a boom of a capsizing boat will render the strong swimmer incapable and the shock of falling into cold water can cause an involuntary intake of breath which would coincide with the head going under. There is also the effect of the cold shock on people of a certain age or with undiagnosed health problems.

I suppose its a bit like the law on seat belts when the "brave machismo" types saw it as a sissy thing and took pride in not wearing them. It only takes the first accident to make them change their mind - or not of course. At the moment there are a number of clubs with option rules or condition rules so some sailors have a free choice and head towards that statistical life changing event. It could be you towmorrow. The drowned man is only unlucky once. And the club has examine itself as a consequence. I for one never want to face the family of the deceased under such circumstances. Its up to clubs to sort this out before HSE get too involved and start looking at our boats too. Lets manage our affairs as much as possible without legislation getting forced upon us.


Posted: 14/06/2008 22:55:53
By: Jonathan
Whilst i'm certainly not advicating never wearing Buoyancy aids, on the other side of the coin i've had a couple of accidents that wouldn't have happened had i or my crew NOT been wearing one. 

The worst was when a spinnaker pole downhaul got stuck over my crews shoulder as the boat turned tutle. As the rope was on the wrong side of his buoyancy aid it was impossible to get it off him, and furthermore you couldn't get to the rope to cut it becasue it was so tight. Fortunatley the rescue boat was on hand. Without a BA it wouldn't have caught in the first place, though admittedly it was a very windy winters day and I wouldn't have wanted to go out without one in those particular circumstances but people have died in entrapments and probably all of them were wearing BAs.

Since then i (Much to some instructors disgust) always wear my BA under my spray top if i'm wearing one, which brings us on to when a spinnaker pole managed to physically clip itself to one of the lugs on the waistband on my buoyancy aid during a gybe. This was a very hot summers day and there was a very real risk of heatstroke if you were wearing anything more thn a rash vest and shorts. No BA, no problem.

With me (even if there wasn't a rule requiring BAs to be worn i still would 99% of the time) it's nothing to do with "brave machismo" if i were to choose not to wear one, it's just that in certain conditions sailing is infinately more comfortable, and it may be even safer to not wear one. I think it's a good thing to preserve this choice, even if most of us wear BAs 99% of the time anyway.


Posted: 15/06/2008 08:23:18
By: Chris M
BAs only 'aid' you, they dont make you float like a life jacket does. With or without a BA a knock on the head is a knock on the head, a BA wont help. And it wont make the water any less cold either.

I wear one every time, just am sometimes lazy about doing the strap up if its hot....which I guess means its a bit pointless....hmmm.


Posted: 15/06/2008 20:08:18
By: Mags
Unfortunately it's no longer a personal decision, much as I at any rate would wish it to be, having taken part in a Merlin Rocket Silver Tiller Race where a man died, (Admitedly not from lack of a Life Jacket or bouancy aid.) the effect of a death from one of our numbers is remembered by all who took place in the Thames S. C. Silver Tiller in May 1963. The memory reminds me that it is not just the victim and his/her nearest and dearest, these events effect when I put on a lifejacket, I concur with Mags and the perceived wisdom of the RNLI et al Lifejackets are safer the self inflating ones are good and whenever I have tested mine (At the end of the cylinders suggested life.) have worked absolutely. Much more comfortable and less intrusive to wear than a BA too.


Posted: 15/06/2008 22:12:55
By: Ancient Geek
Jonathan/Policeman,

Bearing in mind the number of starters in club, circuit and national events in the MR’s 60 year history, would 1 death (tragic, but apparently un-BA related) not make MR sailing about the safest sport out there?

Sailors are meant to be able to judge conditions and their safety measures accordingly, so have a look at the conditions, work out whether you would be prepared to swim from the furthest point you will be from land/or if you would get rescued anyway, then decide whether you feel you need a buoyancy aid. People are quite right when they say a BA won’t help save you from a hit on the head – they are just a buoyancy aid…

I think it’s important that we don’t let the nanny state invade our sailing too heavily. On that note, regarding the trailing thread – just tie everything on securely – it’s quite simple. If you’re not confident that you can secure your boat & mast etc to your trailer and your trailer to the back of your car, then don’t try towing a boat.

Sorry to put things bluntly, but really…!


Posted: 16/06/2008 10:03:23
By: Tim
The point is that we are ambassadors for our sport.
YES, MOST people racing Merlin's are very capable of assessing conditions and deciding on their own responsibilities: THAT is not the issue. That is covered by the SI's. My point was the picture, on Yachts and Yachting.

I certainly wouldn't want someone to come down to the side of the Thames, look at these wonderful boats out on the water, decide they want a go, realise you don't need anything other than a boat, and off they go: total beginners on the water with no experience other than seeing people not wearing buoyancy aids.

Most people racing merlin's are not the problem. Its the fact that the Merlin makes a great picture racing, in the heart of the capital's river, and is viewable by all and sundry - experienced, beginners and total non-sailors.

Other activities have shown that the way to avoid the Nanny State is actually to accept some degree of self-policing before a huge heap of regulations get dumped from on high.


Posted: 16/06/2008 10:13:06
By: Policeman: ChrisJ
So presumably a photo of people sailing a boat where wearing a bouyancy aid is their own choice is a good advertisement for a class where your own good judgement is encouraged. That's not a bad thing.


Posted: 16/06/2008 10:20:43
By: Tim
Well it’s nearly the longest day, and the sun will be moving back to the south and nights getting longer. It’s time to sort the Christmas cards and think on the Christmas Turkey


Posted: 16/06/2008 10:44:58
By: essex in a shed
Aside from Chris P's/Policeman's argument about the wearing of BAs, the photo published with the Y&Y report tells a very important story in itself - the moment when Mike Stephen's chances of winning the Eric Archer Memorial Trophy disappeared, along with the rudder pintel on his boat's transom.


Posted: 16/06/2008 10:48:49
By: Richard (3233)
Sorry, meant Chris J/Policeman, not Chris P.


Posted: 16/06/2008 10:50:56
By: Richard (3233)
Will Olympic rowers be wearing bouancy aids in China, countless millions will be watching on television...?  Next you'll be wanting us to wear a BA when we walk across a bridge. Baah


Posted: 16/06/2008 11:05:56
By: Shaun
Jesus!!!  (dont recall him wearing a BA)


Posted: 16/06/2008 11:53:15
By: Hornblower
but he didn't need one, or the ability to swim!!!


Posted: 16/06/2008 12:31:33
By: from above
Get a grip on reality people, this thread is beginning to sound like an American Bible group meeting.


Posted: 16/06/2008 12:41:37
By: .
My point is that the victims of tragedies heart attacks or whatever are of little consequence to the victims it's all over for them it's the effect on those left behind and witnessing it that is harsh. Incendtaly the late Nicholas Robinson of Hamble River SC was also on the council of ROSPA and was fond of quoting that more people were drowned in cars than boats if that is still true today I do not know.


Posted: 16/06/2008 12:57:21
By: Ancient Geek
The car on the tow path does not seem to have any flotation equipment either! What would happen if the driver's foot slipped and the car ended up in the river?


Posted: 16/06/2008 14:35:44
By: Interested
And what if the driver had his seat belt on as well?


Posted: 16/06/2008 15:36:17
By: .
Many years ago Keith and Jean Steel from Hollingworth (I think) very nearly drowned in their car at Putney. It was dark when their Ford Cortina hit one of the balks of timber deposited on the road by a high tide, they veered off the embankment road and ran down the steep slope into the water. If by chance they had been wearing lifejackets they might have had even greater difficulty leaving their car and avoiding drowning than they did.


Posted: 16/06/2008 16:40:27
By: Robert Harris
We always wear our buoyancy aids, even if the race officer or SI's don't require it. Personal choice, even despite a capsize solely due to the spinnaker pole hooking helm's BA during a gybe (causing excellent instant safety boat response from a senior instructor on shore!)
However when I am race officer I make a point of flying flag Y and insisting on buoyancy whatever the weather even though our puddle has less hazards than the Thames. I do not wish to be accused of negligence or have to live with my conscience should something happen and the club sailors are happy to comply.


Posted: 16/06/2008 20:42:39
By: Pat2121
Oh, and although it is up to the race officer, hanging up the "lifejackets compulsory" notice is usually the first automatic task of everyone's duty day - done without thinking about it!


Posted: 16/06/2008 20:48:30
By: Pat2121
At what point do you 'automatically' say, "I want both safety boats out and two people in both boats - tell the sailing sec. and that other guy to put their merlins away, they are needed in the launch. And whilst you are at it, tell those other two boats that they are too inexperienced and to 'bugger off' its too windy!"
At MYC under 16's are not even allowed on the landing stage without a BA. Adults are referred to the fundametal rules until the RO steps in at the the 'right time'.


Posted: 16/06/2008 23:04:36
By: Ben 2529
In the 50s the only lifejackets available for Cadets was the official kapock filled Cadet one which we had to wear at Cadet Week. At Minima the Cadets refused to wear those bulky orange horrors so every Cadet sailor had to demonstrate they could swim the full length of the old landing stage fully clothed and, if I remember correctly, at least part of it underwater. In those days most children were taught to swim at school and I don't remember losing any!


Posted: 17/06/2008 08:52:19
By: Robert Harris
I think we all agree, swimming isn't the issue, the issues are the circumstances when swimming isn't an option:-
1. Unconcious
2. Shock
3. being trapped underwater because some of your equipment is snagged (including BA worn outside spray tops)

Personally I wear by BA 99% of the time, the heat thing is rarely an issue, as small 'cut away' BAs are just that. I think people who go topless like Mike, are just getting a bit of sun on their back, I am more scared of skin cancer killing me than drowning on a light wind sunny day.

Also, if it is at all windy, I prefer to wear my BA under my spray top, too often have I had poles and tillers shoot up the arms, especialy in a capsize to windward, just the tim you dont want to be pinned under the boat.


Posted: 17/06/2008 11:27:58
By: Alan F
Re political correctness/H+S.  though we should all be aware of the law, if your SI's do not compel the wearing of a buoyancy aid there is no legal requirement.  My point earlier was exactly contrasting the position on crash helmets/seat belts where compulsion is appropriate from buoyancy aids where it is not.  A lot of the perception of the nanny state is from people assuming they should do or not do certain things from the fear of prosecution rather than the actual existence of laws and prevalence of prosecution under those laws.  The British legal system has a concept of "reasonableness".

Incidentally you have set your skin cancer risk for life by about the age of 15 so Mike will not be risking death, merely wrinkles.


Posted: 17/06/2008 11:52:52
By: Andrew M
Perhaps all those who weren't able to attend MYC's Vintage/Thames Series Merlin weekend who have commented on this thread (whether for or against the compulsory use of BAs) would consider attending next year's event and express their preference on the water.  The more, the merrier.  Even better, bring your vintage Merlins to Thames SC this Saturday and continue the debate there.


Posted: 17/06/2008 12:12:44
By: Richard (3233)
Well said Richard,lets face it he was the only one and he wasn't on the water for long.What this thread's about is the super day's sailing everyone had at Minima.Excellent conditions, organisation and close competitive racing.See you all next year (with lifejackets on,of course)for a glass of champers!


Posted: 17/06/2008 13:05:17
By: Ben3634
It is simply bad form to bare your torso in public.


Posted: 17/06/2008 13:06:26
By: .
Whilst about cycle helmets "King Boris" has got it right I think and it applys to Life Jackets even Bouancy Aids just as well.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/06/17/do1701.xml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/06/17/do1701.xml

Posted: 17/06/2008 13:36:18
By: Ancient Geek
I want to make a comment, but we are so off piste perhaps someone should start a 'Nanny State' thread (not me!)


Posted: 17/06/2008 13:59:33
By: Alan F
As he's Mayor of London and being as MYC is in the Royal London Borough of Kingston upon Thames, maybe we could try persuading King Boris to award the prizes next year. ;)


Posted: 17/06/2008 14:07:00
By: Richard (3233)
In BA and helmet just in case he gets knocked on the head.


Posted: 17/06/2008 14:11:20
By: Garry R
Sailing my Solo, I find a BA and a "bump hat" from B & Q (£9.99) a good investment!


Posted: 17/06/2008 16:12:18
By: Peter Fryer, MR 3458
I can't believe I am reading all this "bola bola".  I wear a buoyancy aid all the time - except at Salcombe when it is windless and hot.  In other words I follow Boris's (Boris J southerner not Boris H northerner) advice, assess the risk and act accordingly. Tonight on BBC South East there was a story of one of their correspondents sailing round Britain.  He had sailed from the Medway to Newcastle and he wasn't wearing a lifejacket in any of the shots. Should we all write to the BBC? Should we worry? No - lets go sailing.

PS The Whitstable SIs state you have to wear a buoyancy aid so don't forget to bring yours when you come to the ST on 28/29 June. See you there.


Posted: 17/06/2008 21:42:45
By: JC

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