So all come off the fence and lets see who has a boat on order and when do you expect to take delivery. Rumour has it their may be as many as 20. Linton/Dave can you confirm how many on order.
By doing this we can at least give an indication to prespective new members and those upgrading, when a boat may become available. Indicate also what you are replacing - ie Winder 1, 2, 4, Ezy Roller etc and whether it is already provisionally sold.
I'll start with 02.2009 but not boat replacement.
Bye for now
PS - There are several high profile people I know who would like to join the class but are frustrated by the lack of supply and lead time. So lets get things moving and give a true indication of what is happening.

It seems that the class badly needs another builder it is close (Not yet.) to being a manufacturers one-design and may be stunting growth.

No doubt I shall be putting in an order for a couple soon.  Just waiting for my ship to come in.

latest number 3691 I believe

I might be looking for a new boat but I need something that carries weight well at the back, the last true heavyweight designs I believe were the Smokers and Bad Company variants. What are todays real weight carrier designs?

For a restricted class, I must say that Merlins Rockets  have looked the same for the past 10 years. 'Viv la diferrance' as the French would say. Has the class refined down to almost a 'one design!' in rig and hull shape?

Ordered new boat and getting one year lead time. Sold older winder CT same day as advertised, with two buyers quite desperate to buy. More production is of course now a quite an important issue for the committee to address. Even at a cool £16k for a tricked out Winder Merlin there is now no shortage of buyers, specifically because the design has steadied and reasonably level competition on boat speed. With the EZ Roller more like £19k most orders are going North.
I really think anything more than 3 months is too long. I've ordered a new RS200 yesterday to keep me sailing and that was only £7k and 5 wks delivery, now they are made in the UK again. I may get to like it with very large fleet entries and a number of boats at many Northern/Southern clubs. Why pay the extra £10k.I can order a new one every year and only lose around £1200 in depreciation.
Why can't the Merlin move in to mass production and reduced cost. I don't believe the argument for Carbon cost being the main reason. We really are missing the best opportunity in decades to expand the class. A fantastic looking boat, easy to sail, with all the controls you could wish for
Maybe I can sell my production slot for £3k over list. Any offers?

Dear Northerner,
You seem to have hit the problem on the head, which is it seems to me part fiscal, part supply.
At least another builder able or willing to stand the inevitable cost of set up for bulk if not mass production, maybe only hulls? Would be good, but it is well known the only way to make a small fortune out og Boat Building is to start with a very large one!
A word of caution on going the Manufacturer One-Design route (They are fast taking over the dinghy market - seems to me.) A chum whois an ISAF Measurer of some note tells horror stories of Laser Champions picking through 30 hulls at the manufacturers for a really good one, other M O D's hulls (no 9 er no RS Drill!) from underweight to 40 lbs or so over. Which is inexcuseable if they can build Melges 24's and Dragons within a couple of pounds every time. Does anyone know how constant the W O D's are? I guess that because they seem to be so well underweight it's hardly an issue, except  might make for greater longevity if the weight were in the construction, but of course poorer weight distribution.

I totally agree with the comments of this thread. I know the lead time on a new Winder is now end Q4 2008 and have a fair idea of everyone who has one on order. Fantastic for Winder but bad for the class as a whole when so many people want to either buy brand new or ~2 yo boats. People who want to upgrade every few years can't and are hanging onto their boats thus meaning the second-hand market is extremely tight for near new hulls and restricting entries into the class....why would we want to wait 6mths for a new or near new boat when an RS200 is available pretty easily?? I would prefer to sail a Merlin any day but it is becoming increasingly frustrating and I know that there are quite a few others out there with the same problem – most (if not all) of the CT boats to be replaced next year have already been sold.

Why do people want to replace a hull every two years or so? are they no longer competetive?

Some of the boats on the second hand list look like really good value, given all this?

The sorting through the Lasers Hulls to find a good one is a Myth!  Although some of the top boys and girls import Australian hulls.  There discrepancies with mast rake and weight are minimal!

Aren't the Lasers "supplied equipment" at the Olympics anyway - you might get a dud when it really matters.

and getting really fed up with it all.  even now seriously thinking about a.n.other class.  Try writing to all the current owners - result nothing.  Try looking at his website twice a day every day - nothing.  Try asking everyone you know if they know of any coming on the market - nothing.  Try geting the names of all boats on order and see if anyone is selling anytime soon (or even over the next year) - nothing.  Get a sniff from one existing owner who says may be convinced into selling, but then doesn't return any e-mails or phone calls despite attempts every day for two weeks.  For someone wanting to buy, you need unbelievable patience and it's pretty depressing!!!!

Funny, don't think you contacted me, or if you did it was just before the Nationals when I put it on temporarily and then took it off. But I haven't sailed Snakey 'B' since the Nationals, and whilst it has been an appreciating asset, I have decided I will sell it at the right price, I need to think about what is the right price but it would be more than July's advertised price.  

Feel free to contact me before I put it up on the for sale list.

This is the other side of the problem, what is the point buying second hand when you can get a new one for little more?

I know what i'd do.

This is a big problem for the class.

As I see it, it has several facets:

1) The Winder (particularly in Mk4 guise?), is seen to be the fastest Merlin Rocket across all conditions, in all venues.  Not only that, but it is offered at a competitive price, with excellent build quality, customer service and is continuously being refined and developed.  Cast your minds back to 2000/2001 when the first Winders were appearing - they were revolutionary in ease of use compared to the vast majority of previous boats.  Newer Winders have the same edge over the first incarnations.  This makes for a desirable product.  Plus they have a high profile around the circuit/champs etc.

2) There is a value-for-money belief when people buy a Winder, that maybe isn't the case for other boatbuilders in the class.  Linton/Kevin had a great product, but for one reason and another it wasn't developed to the same extent as the Winder, thus giving the Winder a slight advantage.  Having said that, Will Rainey's most recent boat is certainly no slouch.  In addition the EZ Rollers have always been sailed very light, which may put potential customers off.  There is also the logistical problem of having the boat built in one place and fitted out somewhere else.

3) Masts.  I understand that there is a big problem getting hold of a Chipstow rig, and the products offered by SuperSpars/Selden are not as fast.

4) Wood.  Laurie would be able (if he's in the country!) to build a wooden boat in 1 month.  With modern epoxies they are durable.  His boats are also fast.  The foam sandwich idea was a good one, but unfortunately Laurie didn't particularly enjoy the experience, so I'm unsure if he'd be willing to go down that route again.  You could ask though.  One stringing could certainly be achieved.

In my view, these are the issues.

So how to solve them?  The class needs a rival boatbuilder, in plastic, who can build a product which is as good as the Winder, at a similar price, with the same build quality.  And it has to be at least as fast.  In no way do I have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all competent boat buiders in the UK, but in terms of high quality medium production runs, the only people I really hear about in the same breath as Winder are Ovingtons.  

Now I have no idea if they would be interested, but why don't some of you guys that are in the market approach them, find a designer to design a new/tweaked design - obviously sorting out the copyright/design issues, and get them to build some hulls?  There are many chandlers in the UK who have excellent boat fitting departments - out source the fitting to them.  Get some masts in from the Kiwi carbon mast builders and provide a parallel efficient supply chain.

Not only would you get your nice spangly new Merlin, but it would drive development and allow those who want access to the class to buy a boat.  Without it, we're in trouble.

Damm, does that scupper my plan?

I used to own an Ovington built 'Wembley One Design' plastic NSM 2. That was a quaility built boat.

Hate to po-po the situation but with the 29er and other boats now in Ovington's stable, think that may not be the option at the moment as they have expanded capacity over the last 8 months due to the 29er going full time into the youth fleet and taking on a group of one design classes. People to speak to are Dave Hall and Chris Turner. Jacko has done a cost evaluation for a set of moulds C&Cd milled and when we had a chat said to make it ecconomical, it would need 20 orders. However, not sure how keen he would be as we do not know in the long term how sustainable say 20 - 25 boats per a year would be if supporting 2 builders of Winders quality. However, they would be the fairest hulls out of the mould in existence. Jacko would just need to get the shape and layout right. Having tried Lintons Let it Ride (Ticket to Ride), the boat has merits and think this an option but the price is a killer and without Phil etc buying, some may not want to take the risk especially with the preceived price. Any boat price would have to be competitive with Winder Boats. Jacko and Linton are probably the 2 most likely options available but both would need to have commitment to enable a run of boats to be built and so drive price down. With new boats what is no longer an option is one string as this enables more control of the power in the rig so allowing more power when in full on mode, which means slightly more speed. 
Though we have opted for a Winder, the class does need a second quality builder to continue development but hopefully in a controlled manner, so as to maintain a healthy secondhand price.
Debate is healthy and hopefully something will come of it.
Bye for now

Why dont you ask Racing Sailboats. I bet they could produce a Merlin Rocket for under £10,000. They all look the same now anyway!

Have you seen the quality of the kiwi masts compared to a chipstow? If the kiwi ones were 10bob they just might be worth considering.

the std winder boat comes off the mold and is then sold, but if you ask, and part wilth cash they will cut the boat up jig the shape then put it back together. so there not all one designs?

Thank god for that!!!!

Did Rob get an answer to his question higher up?:
>>I might be looking for a new boat but I need something that carries weight well 
>>at the back, the last true heavyweight designs I believe were the Smokers and 
>>Bad Company variants. What are todays real weight carrier designs?

If the answer is not a Winder Mk 4 or 5, then that might help to move people (myself included!) to another builder...?

Hi Not sure what you define as heavyweight but we were only just under 24 stone at the Nationals in 3647 (Winder Mk4 - one string) and bar a few of lighter teams (D Winder, RG, Taxi) held our own and managed to stay in the top 10 most of the week. Oh and forgot to mention the first race proper was Pete's first run in a Merlin which with me standing behind the hoop explaining where I wanted him to sit whilst in 4th, finally finishing 8th was quite amusing when thinking back. As he got used to the boat we got quicker and finished just 3rd 10 boat lengths of the front in the last race but RG was not out. Just think light and rig big and hold on but the tighter reaches would be nice. 
Bye for now

Lets just say I'm well on the wrong side of 14 stone myself and crew is about 12+

That sounds pretty heavy for a CT especially a Winder 4 , some of the earlier variants are rumoured to carry weight a little better but 26 stone + would be pretty heavy in any of them. Saying that some heavy helms still go quite well but having sailed with 26 stone I know that we would suffer in certain conditions and certain points of sailing.
The EZ roller has a little more rocker than a LIR so may carry a little weight ?

does this mean that all the 36xx boats on the for sale list have gone? Or are the ones left too dear? What stops a 35xx boat with a modern rig and good sails going well?

There's a Thin Ice on the list. That's supposed to carry a bit more weight...

I was under the impresion that kevin and linton were selling the new LIR for £15,000 which was the same as a Winder? There was certainly an advert for them on the pin board at Salcombe?

My Let It Ride went quite well with my/angus' 30+ stone on board. I could blame the weight all day long but it was our sailing holding us back!! I understand that the EZ Roller has more rocker and can take a little more weight.

As for all these people waiting for a boat, there is 3 EZ Rollers availiable all proven fast boats and Lauries Smart Tart, proven to be faster that the Tales in the right conditions. I think the 'One Design' issue is all in peoples heads not a reality. Look at how things were going when the EZ Roller first came out. It was beating the Winders regularly just people stopped buying it!

Barnsie, why don't you give one of the EZ Rollers a try before you buy a new one? They have to be a bargin right now and they will become a force if the right people start to sail them again.

Hal, get your dad to start winning in TTR!!

On that note. Immaculate ez roller waiting to be sailed for very good price. All there and ready to go. Sailing with the old man this winter when we are not swimming, so available now!
07813006823

I think this is important

"the std winder boat comes off the mold and is then sold, but if you ask, and part wilth cash they will cut the boat up jig the shape then put it back together. so there not all one designs?"

Which means, that you can chop up old Winders too to change their shapes. I did this with Chambulls, and William Warren before did this with Chambulls too, so you can easily have your cake and eat it.

It isn't that expensive either, I wont quote exact prices, but a full re-furbish of gel coat/ c-board / chop the nose off and drop the stem, install and fit new welded hoop as per current was less than half the price of a high quality wooden boat deck revarnish job.

I didn't get Chambulls garboard run off flattened, as per some of the Mk4 mod options, as I wanted to keep the weight carrying feature of Chambulls.

The point I am making is, you can (relatively) cheaply keep the early Winders up to date, and as they don't need to use the one mould that Dave has, you don't have to necessiarily wait in a long queue (obviously you may have to wait anyway).

Clearly (see the one string thread), one stringing Chambulls is the next step, and we will see how far we can go with it this winter, although I have read Chris M's one string article and it doesn't go far enough for me as it doesn't adjust the kicker, so I'll be studying that and see where it goes.

One stringing is something that I will be looking at in our Turner 'tales (T7 out of the mold) this winter. Sailing light, 21stone approx, easy adjustment of the rig would be very handy. As for new tales being faster than old tales, we race Jacko nearly every weekend in his new winder, the main difference seems to be in acceleration, along comes a little puff and it's bye bye time, mind you new sails, clean foils, and a decent helm are probably the main factors.

And he has forgotten to bolt the 21kg of lead in.

I am assured by an ISAF Measurer that in order to get 22 vaguely similar Lasers for the Athens Olympic Regatta they had to pick through 120 hulls.

If ovi are to busy why doesnt the class contact RMW marine, they are at the forfront of 14 development and 18ft skiffs etc. so i'm sure they could develop a merlin.

mainly because woofie sold his factory to a developer and moved to brazil.

or i may be mistaken - his website seems to imply a new facory is on the way.

Do the Maths!! in 2000 3591 was registered, in 2007 the latest number is 3691, so we have 101 boats in  8 seasons years, approximately 12 per year. Does anyone who reads this forum seriously consider that enough of a fleet to support 3 builders, 2 of which need substantial investment and a 10 year plan just to tool up.
Look around you, the same people are sailing as who were 8 seasons ago with the exception of a couple of new works type drivers who have replaced their bosses for now. 
You have to face facts that the Merlin will never be a mass produced class like the Laser or RS200....and thank goodness for that..that is what is so attractive , it's quirky, its different ( it was up til recently one of the only classes with a 4 sided main, and laughed at at that) but who's laughing now...even Tom Snackenburg has got on the bandwagon and gone 4 sided with his AC boats. You see development is what it is all about..not having a cosy one design..the merlin has always been a thinking mans boat, relationships with the designer , a nod and a wink...its part of the attraction of the class , the individuality. If you want a boat, commission one, if you have any ideas speak to the designers... but realise that you are very very lucky that a forward thinking Winder can produce, due to the economies of scale of building other classes in sufficient numbers, an affordable well built merlin. The irony is that at the time of the conception of the class the idea of a one design, one builder setup would have been shocking....and who got you there........you did, simply because you did not support the existing builders.
The simple fact is that the class is at critical mass which is actually an incredibly healthy mass as shown by Champs numbers that sway generally due to the venues chosen. I am unable to remember the 60's but about 200-250 boats were built per year and compare those champs numbers to now when only 12 boats are built you are able to see how healthy the class is.
My next point would be STAGNATION, hands up if you think the class has stagnated??
thought so!!

Don and Richard Woof designed and built their own Merlin back in the 70's if I remember correctly, around No 2700 or something like that.

21 kilos of lead! He said that he carries that high up, between his shoulders!!

Surely you meant "between his ears"

Maybe he bolted it into my boat when it was in the "shed"

There was a period in the mid 60s when the majority of boats being built were Proctor Mk IXBs. For example - of the 221 boats built in 1966 and 1967 approx. 66% were IXBs built mainly by Wyche and Coppock and Chippendale. This trend was becoming obvious when I was chairman in 1965 and in one of our newsletters I suggested that to stabilise the rapidly increasing the cost of MRs we should become a one design class based on the IXB. I was howled down of course. Nevertheless IXBs were still being built six years later.

RMW no longer have anything to do with RS boats shipping the production to brazil did both companys no good at all!  Woofie now has a new premisis being built and future looks very good for RMW, we certainly have no probs with our 14 and we use his sails and hull

I've had good dealings with Woofie over the years.  The two 14s I had were very well built in carbon/foam. He does look after his clients - often found at championships up to his elbows in carbon helping to fix a boat, not necessarily one of his. He also imports the Australian CST masts which are excellent - but I have no idea if they have a model with bend/weight characteristics suitable for a Merlin. If you are looking for alternatives Woofie may be worth investigating?

Kevin and Ian worked with CST earlier this year to develop a carbon twig for the Merlin, currently Mike Stephens has the only one which he was delighted with (3rd at a Champs race). Mast currently for sale after Mike was sadly banned from sailing (more specifically hiking) by his doctor.

I believe that mast is even more pricey than a Chipstow, which might not be the way to go.  I believe Chris Lewns' ae also an antipodean manufacturer, and his are cheaper than the equivalent, even after importing, and you can have whatever bend characteristics you like.  I stand to be corrected on that however.  As for Mike - sorry to hear about that - it might just be worth trying another doc though!

Just looking around and look what I found! Not sure about the shipping!!!

Oh, yeah, don't forget that the CST price is in Aussie dollars, so $OZ 922 is about £400. What was that about price again? Of course shipping will be a bit prohibitive, maybe.

£477

£477

Chris Lewns's mast came from www.c-tech.co.nz.  I had a long email discussion with them when I ordered my last boat.  Really helpful but not that cheap when you take import duty and shipping into account. Also at that time a bit of an unknown quantity.

Which (NZ Masts comment.)is probably wht the various posts on class development or not got started fewer people willing to take a punt or do their own thing.

Import duty and shipping may well almost double the cost.

But it does make you wonder why they can knock them out for that price in New Zealand.  A carbon sweat-shop manned by sheep perhaps?

Perhaps a work force that actualy works? OR Less greedy investors/owners/shareholders.

Import duty is likely to be pretty low depending on the tariff code. I import various metal and plastic components from China and the import duty is only 2.7% . You will have to pay VAT of course at 17.5%. 
Get a few people together and ship them in by sea, the freight won't cost that much. You can send an entire 40' container  for less than 2K and you could fit a 100 masts in there.

CST numbers look favourable on their website.  I'd heard the numbers, delivered from Wrecked 'em, were closer to �2k.

New Let It Ride as per Hywel Snrs is being advertised at £14,999 in the forth coming magazine, that would sort out the boat shortage issue. Re the CST twig they are £2k with full pbo rigging compared to circa £1,850 for a Chipstow.

Still not a Winder is it!

No you're right it's not and I assume by that comment you think that's all people want.

The problem is that nobody top flight (sorry Hywel) has sailed the new Let It Ride design and although Si did ok at the Champs sailing it he wasn't exactly race ready, he admitted he felt very rusty. Until somebody starts to campaign a LIR I suppose we won't bea able to make a judgement as to if they are as quick or indeed quicker than the alternative Winder product. Anyone keen to take the plunge?

EZ rollers still seem fairly popular, with 2 having been snapped up in the last month very quickly.

Although most don't have 1 string, the open layout around the kingpost means all can be retrofitted to full 1 string spec. Will Rainey did this on his 2nd boat over 1 winter.

I think Alex hit the nail on the head though, it is down to who sails them. If most top flight now in Winders, then they will tend to get the better results. It doesn't mean they are any quicker than EZ Rollers. What would have happened if Roger Gilbert had won the Nats in a EZ or Driver boat????

I'm impressed by CST! No sooner do we mention them in this thread, than they have a web page created with prices specifically for the MR.  I can't throw any light on import costs but there are two importers already set up - RMW and (possibly) Chris Turner at Ovington.

The Let it Rides advertised are £14,999 + VAT, which I believe brings the price to £17,623.83.


cheers
Rich

Well Phil King has won whenever he's appeared I am pretty sure that its because Winders come race ready fast "out of the box" that appeals to the idle amongst us. Quite sure EZ etc just as quick especially with the right mast and sails.

Amazing - £15K - I won't lose sleep over the change - is this "ready to sail" inc. sails?

According to the RMW site, you can get a full on new Int 14 in carbon / nomex prepreg for £17,166 - Ok it is excluding the ropes and delivery and VAT, but then again, so is the MR price (although I hope that the Merlin will have some string to play with).

Surely this is just confirming everything that those outside the class perceive about the Merlins. Don't get me wrong, I love Merlins, have been sailing them on and off for 20 plus years, but surely some sanity must prevail. Buy Smart Tart or djelibeybi - most of us will never be able to quantify the difference - and use the balance to have one hell of a party.

I think my £500 unique Merlin is much more bang for the buck, even when I get my £80 broken carbon mast repaired. I think I can even use this to my advantage and spend even more money on Enchantment - afterall, I still have £14K to spend, right? 

See you all at the Nationals - bring it on!

As the old Phantom Class Chairman used to tell me, it is all down to the nut on the end of the tiller.

With the renaissance of the vintage section of the MR fleet, the next growth area could turn out to be deck-stepping & 1-string control system converions (where possible) of modern shaped wooden merlins.

Correct me if I am wrong, but will the original CT (3413) qualify for the over 20 trophies next year? I guess that Dangerbatt (3400) is there already. Some very convertable and cheap racing to be had - new rig & sails and you still have change for the party.

Does Hywel's price include VAT sails and a trailer and covers?

It includes, sails, combi, cover and super spar carbon mast (same spec as a Winder is advertised). Can't remember if the price was inc or ex VAT

3400 isn't in the over 20 year olds this year, the cut off was just before my old boat 3394 (I think 3392 was in the over 20 year olds). Next year 3394 is in the over 20's. Bear in mind 3394 won the Inlands over 10 year prize when it was 18 years old. Better watch out.

And if I can work out how to one string Chambulls (Winder Mk1), then I can 1 string 3394 (which is already deck stepped), as I set the rig up on 3394 exactly the same as Chambulls so I can swap rigs around if I like.

Dads new plastic Let it Ride (Ticket to Ride)has a one string system and a Superspars mast. 
I wouldn't discount the superspars masts just yet. Mark Barnes borrowed my boat 3647 (with a black superspars mast) for the champs and came 8th overall finishing third in one race so they are certainly not that slow and about £700 cheaper than a chipstow..Worth a thought!

lets just get over thinking about one-string-systems, lets put 2 meter sq more sail on flat top main, bigger jibs and lets go scare ourselves!! it's become so insular with the finite control systems after all wer're not going to the freekin moon, we are goin sailing..............where's the fear??????????????????????????????//

I have to agree with Andy in that there does not really appeat to be any milage at all in buying a new boat now. The only reason we need new boats is to stock the second hand list. And there we have it, full circle!!

Having spoken to Will at the weekend it would appear that djelibeybi is about to find a new home pretty quickly so the EZ are still pretty popular.

However if I were to have a choice of all the boats there is about I would still be looking for a wood LIR and I don't think I would be on my own in that sense. What would Kevin charge to make another Gangsta, Rong Number or Guilt Complex I wonder?

I would still say Smart Tart is a bargin though and it would not surpise me if Pat sells Hot Totty instead if nobody buys it!!

One of the most exciting sails I ever had was off Shoreham in 20 knots in a Wotnot with Mr Warren. We had fitted her out with a trapeze, a Tempest spinnaker and pole. We were practising for the Burnham Icicle open class. After an hour of planing to windward and downwind around the ocean, we decided it was to uncontrollable in the confines of Burnhamon Crouch with 150 other boats.  Great sail though.

See INOVATION.

Hi Further to Hywel Jnrs comment, can confirm we are aiming to run with the latest specification Superspar mast as used at the 2007 nationals. However, we are porkers, topping out at dare I say it, 151 kgs and dieting!!
CST build a good product and finishing should be within the ability of many but other than Mike's boat yet untested. So the Jury is out ad therefore we are starting with a safer option next year pairing it up with P&B sails as used to great effect this year but hopefully next year at less than 149 kgs.
Bye for now
Barnsie

Calling Barry Dunning - can you email me, cheers, Rachel

Noting Mr Dunning's theme, we tried a Int 14 full size on a Merlin in the late sixties. Despite the fact that it was Force 2-3 on the river at Bourne End, we kept sailing over the **** thing!

So getting back to the original issue of this thread, how many people may order in the next couple of years and currently have boats or may be new to the class. How many frustrated people are looking to buy boats but cannot find a suitable steed. To my knowledge, nobody is or has recently done a market study of what is required/provided and so the class moves forward due to the unwavering loyalty of some, dedicated input of the committee past and present and builder(s) who have provided what is perceived to be required. Currently though Winder provide a great product, we now have an imbalance of supply where one route is being followed (as previously stated I am joining that said flock), would it not be better if we identified exactly what the market is by size and projection and see if we can sustain at least 2 comparable builders. This has to be good for the class and all involved in maintaining the longevity of the boat. One design is good for a while but then when a new design comes along that is overly fast, we could see a revolution and another situation as when the Tales arrived on the scene. So progressive development is surely more healthy but this can only be driven by competition and if the market is big enough to support 2 builders. So lets get back to where we started and get teh stats together. It may be worth the webmaster and committee starting an online analysis to get a broad insite into what can and maybe achievable even if only the webmaster/committee know the identity of those who log on. This needs to be done to maintain the health of the MR as we now see it. 
Bye for now
PS heading to the bunker to avoid the flack!!

Just another note, see the link below as to the performance of one of the boats for sale at the weekend.

I have a great product within a small market.  The barriers to entry are reasonably high given the size of market.  If I put my effort into growing the market the barriers to entry will stay appreciably the same.  Someone else may then choose to join the market.  My investment in growing the market will not be repaid.  The market may get larger but more competitive.  I like the market!

There is potential to go outside the current market but this should be customer driven not supplier driven.  If there are enough people willing to take the gamble to find another supplier this will happen.  This will be dictated by the quality of the product available.  Chickens and eggs....

The current dominant supplier would be best advise to continue to make hay and not be too greedy in the short term.  If an alternative supplier comes along he can always ramp up the production of the known and popular commodity.

Barnsie - it sounds like you should find a new builder and sell your spot in the queue!

Hi, no my order is placed.
The reason for my input, is I believe that the class needs healthy diversification through demand producing controlled development and a quality product matching or bettering (hard to do) Winder boats. Having discussed this issue with Jacko and a couple of other builders of note, to enable them to do this, there has to be a clear direction/volume requirement to justify investment in new moulds etc. Apparently break even for C&C moulds is approximately 20 hulls. So if you think along those lines, Kevin and co unless there has been a sizable private investment, have still not clawed back all theirs and their backers investment, which means that they must be committed to moving forward with the EZ Roller or the new Linton shell (Ticket to Ride). This however also brings to mind quality, competitive price and future development of the builder's moulds. C&C moulds are the way forward as they can be easily modified by computer and have new sections spliced in but this is expensive and the builder would have to be passionate about what they were doing as it would be a long game stategy. Guy/Dave have proven this is possible and we all have a lot to thank them for as we now have the situation that many are enjoying. However, for the health of the class and progessive development where secondhand prices devaluation can be controlled over a period of time, we need diversification. This can only come about if we can convince a small/medium volume quality builder who can be competitive and supply on date that there is demand which warrents their investment. Hence the chicken and egg issue. We as a class have the capability but we need to show that there is also potential capacity in the market to allow them to establish their product and make a living. Reminds me abit fo when a group of like minded people got together and developed the Chipstow mast.
Basic ecconomics really.
Bye for now

Hi Barnsie, having previously run a five axis machine shop making boat parts up to 95' long, I think you are probably right about 20 hulls for break even (especially with commercial job rates). If you had a smooth skin, you could get away polystyrene block, cut to the inside skin - a male mould = cheap to make, but each moulding will require fairing and painting. You could use the plystyrene "buck" to then lay plywood or foam core ply over as a former? However, with our beautiful clinker hull, you will have to cut the gelcoat surface - a female mould = expensive to make, but easier to finish the final boat.

I would also be concerned about the longevity of the tooling as the direct tooling paste or block is not the panecea that some think. OK, we were trying to take polyester moulds and mouldings off the tooling paste, epoxy will be matched better, but still .....

Hi Andy
The tooling that people have been informing me about/route they have been looking at going down is milling the moulds out of a solid lump of epoxy material. I believe this is the most stable other than metal and should give the best finish and longevity of the mould. To my knowledge only a handful of dinghy moulds have been milled and when they have, subject to the qaulity of the milling, you get the fairest and most purfect finish possible.
However, 20 boats breakeven is a big commitment financially on the part of the builder but would be great if it could be pulled off.
Any other process other than a female mould would be to labour intensive and the variables would be to great.
Await replies with interest.
Bye fro now

Why all the fuss about supply or the perceived lack of it?  How many Merlins have Winder Boats sold this year up to the Nationals?  A fellow sailing club member pointed out to me on Sunday that it is something like six, and that all this rush for a new Merlin has come after the Nationals, with much publicity surrounding Roger Gilbert's triple (Salcombe, Merlin Nationals and RS200 Nationals).  It would be interesting to know how many Merlins are currently on order and since when to get an idea of how much demand has increased recently.

If a new boat builder needs to turn out an average of 20 boats a year to break even, can all those out there complaining about long lead times and big queues offer a guarantee of placing orders on a regular basis.  As I haven't got my year book with me at work I can't calculate how many boats have been sold per year, say over the past ten.  Will demand sustain another boat builder year in year out?  Perhaps not.

I would have thought a purchase like this (c. £15,000) would require some forethought and planning, not an impulsive 'I want a Merlin, and I want it now'.  The criticism about supply is a bit unfair to the boat builders concerned, especially when you consider how much demand fluctuates.

I had heard that BAE at Bristol might be offering good terms for milling, also the BMF were looking at a project for a milling facility for UK boatbuilders.  Might be worth touching base with BMF technical.  I think Mike Cooke at Aadvaak is also looking at milled Moth hulls.

I would have thought that milling a single skin hull would be doable if you have a 3D CAD model, however I am not convinced that any designer could develop a computer model that was as fair as a craftsman built timber hull, especially where planks thicknesses and widths are tapered toward the bow.

Where you are looking to tweak the hulls, surely the difficulty will be much the same as cutting and shutting the existing Winder mould?

Bending planks of wood produce fair shapes, especially in the direction of the water flow.  Also what is the point of a fair shape if you have lands?

The more your tooling costs, the less likely you are to find builders to service the class.  

Also the more essoteric the boats become, the less people will want to play.

Surely the answer is to have a way of building planked hull plugs in MDF, fairing them up and taking a female "splash" mould off them, then having a common deck mould that can be adapted to fit slightly different hull shapes.

I, for one, am not a current Merlin sailor, and I was prepared to go out and buy one - based on the fact that the "one design Winder" provides an easy, fairly risk free, entry into the class without needing to do too much home work on the type of boat / mast / sails etc to buy. Asking around at the beginning of 2007 (people with new Winders then) I found out the approx price and the expected 8 month delivery time.

When I came to order a month or so ago, I found out the delivery time had extended to 13 to 15 months, that is the whole of another year waiting for the boat.... so I didn't place an order - preferring to get onto the water in 2008 in something, rather than sitting on the bank watching.

Now, after reading the discussions about ideal weights and how the heavy weights (*) are loosing out more and more each year, I am glad I haven't ordered. 

(* 26 stone: fits into the "ideal weight" as reported in the Y&Y Racing Classes Guide)

CJ, what design have you been sailing previously to deciding to join the Merlin Rocket class?  Did you keep hold of it until getting a firm idea about lead times for the Merlin?  Perhaps you didn't have a boat. If not, you could always have picked up a wooden Merlin second-hand to give you an introduction.  Probably wouldn't be too difficult to off-load once you got nearer the delivery time for the new Winder.  And you base your decision about the weight issue from reading the comments on this forum.  Wouldn't it be better to go out and test a Merlin out.  I believe it can be organised fairly easily if you get in touch with your area rep.  Maybe you even have your own contacts in the Merlin fleet.

I know that the BMF were looking at CNC facilities - I was working for a large Production builder that actually had one! We did an assessment and the CNC worked well when you have a large fair surface - say the topsides of a yacht, but didn't give any advantage on detail areas. Whether this was the machine we had or not, who knows, but I agree that a simple (!) MDF plug, with splash to give a female mould is the easiest way forward. As you quite rightly mention, the biggest hold up that we had with this facility was the lack of good quality 3d CAD data and I don't believe that your average Merlin designer will have this information to accurately cut the plank shapes to go direct tooling for a mould. We had a dedicated CAD man with 20 plus years experience and he didn't get it right all the time. The machine finish will still require painting and polishing, etc, to give you the required gloss levels. Solid block (very very expensive) will still have glue lines which will show through. Been there, tried it and always went back to MDF plugs .....

Cannot Lawrie Smart make an exact shape version of the Winder Mk 5 in his foam cored plywood. Epoxy / glass coat it and you would be hard pressed to notice the difference, except of course you might get to enjoy your pride & joy next season. I am sure that a "one stop shop package" could be resolved easily. Kev Driver is already offering this.

I also don't think the Winder Merlin is a so-called 'one-design'.  Rather, it's a slowly but steadily evolving restricted development design that causes the top end of the fleet to want the latest tweek so fuelling further development.

Hi
The 20 boats is not per year but the number required to recover the investment.
As mentioned before, Winder are doing a great job, but their is a lack of available capacity and diversification. One builder has to have class diversification to protect their living form class flutuation. Therefore, we need more capacity and shorter lead up times to avoid the class's expansion slowing down.
26 stone could be competitive with tweeking of the courses at the Nationals (tighter reaches) in some conditions and on the Silver Tiller circuit, should be able to mix it at some current events. So do not lose heart. It would be nice if the optimum weight was 22.5 - 23.5 stone so bringing in 20.0 - 26.0 stone but to do this you would need very controlable rigs. The one string has done this to a point but now the masts, plates and sails need tweeking. It is happening slowly so do not lose heart. We were competitive in all conditions weighing in at 153+ kg subject to the previous nights activities as we partied hard. Oh and Pete's first sail i a Merlin was the practice race at the Nationals.
Bye for now

Just an update:
I was racing an RS400, but had to stop due to operations and hospital visits for the crew. So I sold the boat. I have been looking around for something that is still fun, but requires "less grunt" than the 400. I tried a Vareo (top 10 at the Nationals), but next year my crew will be back. Yes, I could pick up a cheap wooden Merlin, but having sold a top-price 400 that wouldn't necessarily fit my image!

There are three very quick top notch boats on the for sale list, they may not be Winders but I have seen every one of the beat Winders on the water,
They might fit your image?!?

You can always order a new boat from whoever and buy one of the excellent 2nd hand boats as a "Schoolmaster" who knows you might keep it in preference to the new boat!

Being new to the class, I wanted / needed a boat that was "the same" as everyone elses - so that I could set it up as quick as possible. So a 1-string Winder was the choice to allow me get into the groove quickly, as well as being able to ask for advice from others with the same set-up.
The other boats on the list are great for someone with experience of Merlins, so they know what to look for / feel while sailing - but (like all the others in the queue!) I wanted a 1-string Winder.

The Merlin Rocket ethos is that are not all the same individual boats for individuals, the class has never been boring boats sailed by boring people. As Michael Caine might put it it is "interesting".

Merlins, in my experience, due to the raking rig, don't have a 'set up that works', like some other classes, they need to be 'tweaked' as you sail. Having the one string system doesn't set anything up, it just make simultaneous adjustmente to save your crew (in my opinion ideally the crew controls the rig) time.

So whilst your 'out the box' ideas is understandable, it won't work. You need some milage in a Merlin (there are very few exceptions to this, Roger G this year being one, but even he did nearly a full season prior to the Nationals), so getting an older but competetive boat for one season and selling it when your new one comes through is a good idea (we did this ourselves, although the mistake I made was buying to cheaply on the basis that £1,000 boat you can 'throw away' as the new one would depreciate that in a year), if i were doing it again, I would pick a better boat and pay more (not the top spec £9,000) but for instance there is a nice looking John Turner Tales FRP, full carbon etc for £4,000, I would look at doing a 'deal' on that, knowing that if I was prepared to take a bit of a loss (e.g. £1k)it would sell quickly when my new boat came through.

CJ you tease...I smell a red herring...or perhaps its a....GRAVY BONE!

Either way it stinks!

RE:>>CJ you tease
Maybe, maybe not :-)
Certainly I spoke to DW in order to plan a new boat, but on hearing the delivery date went back to the drawing board. As it happens, with further hospital visits to recover from first, that was a good thing..... But its very possible I will be back in 2009 (and probably looking for a newish, used, Winder).

Just wanted to be the 100th post here!!  Anyone else must enter the draw to get in or am I on the wrong thread!!?

Are the hospital visits as a result of sailing the RS400?

More likely to have been a botox gone wrong when getting the appropriate image!