Having spent the last 4 years doing her up I'm wondering if those with old yearbooks/knowledge might be able, kind enough to fill in a little history of her? |
Katy Lou was first owned by Gordon Payne at Upper Thames and was named in honour of his daughter. He sailed very successfully with Sam Tee in Katy Lou at Upper Thames until Gordon bought a IXb called Sarah (again named after one of his daughters). The boat was sold to another Club member, Ian Beagley who died suddenly and for about 15 years the boat sat in the rafters of the Fury boathouse at Bourne End. When the abandoned boat rule came in,Truda bought the boat with a view to sailing it at Upper Thames on Wednesday evenings. It had been stripped of much of its gear so we cobbled various sails together, had a cover made and Laurie made a rudder for it and painted and varnished her. Laurie and Truda started sailing Katy Lou at Upper Thames (we had Deep Thought at the time) and had a number of successes at the UTSC Open meetings. A few years later, it was sold to a UTSC member and unfortunately she wasn't sailed very much and then was sold to Captain Ross. A beautiful boat and very slippery on the river. |
Thanks Chris. Seems that she had quite a easy life at times just being in storage. I fully stripped her down to bare wood (had been painted on outside) which took ages! She then went to Jamie who fitted a new case and redecked her, as more than I could handle. Justed started varnishing the outside of her and looking great. Aiming to give her a white waterline like Restless. |
Who did your wood work and redecking please, Jamie Who ? |
She sounds great Ross. Will she be ready by January? If so, you could always bring her down to Tammy for the Travellers' series. Goes without saying you'll have plenty of similarly 'pimped up' river Merlins to compete against! |
Sadly won't be ready for January I doubt. Need to fit around house diy as well as work on my old car. Too many projects I think! Depends how much I can get Alex to help me.... |
January 2010 is my prediction! Having recently had the pleasure of being the Captain's roomie for a few weeks, I know he has plenty of other projects on the go... |
Rob 2601 http://ashdown.emworx.com/about/default.asp |
Yes Jamie Stewart built the case and new deck. Setup his own company now based in Southampton. Will have to try get some pics to Mags in the future. |
Jamie Stewart has his own company. He has now moved to a new factory in Romsey. |
Ross, |
No this is something Jamie did when we had the new deck fitted. The 2nd hand carbon mast we brought for her actually came with spare length tubing which we used as the king post. Gave it an extra wrap to make sure stiff enough before fitting as carbon not great in compression. Mind you old river boats don't run with much rig tension anyway. Jamie extended part of the new case forwards enough so the king post stands on it rather than the hog. This helps take some stress out of the main hull. |
Richard, if you need advice re: deck stepping etc you could always talk to my father Barry who re-decked, deck-stepped and put a front buoyancy tank in for his restoration this year of 1212 Fair Kop. She is now almost ready for competition (bar a bit of further rigging)! |
Thanks Richard. |
Just for info.... it is not Romsey but Locks Heath (about a mile from the old Proctor site) - just by where Ian Ridge and Tony Smith used to turn out championship winning Contenders, Nat 12s, 14s and the like. |
Thanks Guys, I purchased an old satisfaction last year and would like to renovate it, so I will try Jamie. |
Does anyone have a direct contact for Jamie? |
Found this number on the Yellow pages site 01794 519990. Have his mob number at home if needed. |
That's a Romsey number - is it his home? |
Hooray you're keeping her original! Too many good boats are spoilt by being carbonated and deck stepped thus losing the original design ethos. It particularly seems to be a Thames pothunters trend - how can a boat be vintage if the mast and boom are carbon and the sails kevlar? If you put a modern mini engine in a classic mini you would be laughed off the field at a classic car event - why do it in boats? http://www.cvrda.org/community |
I disagree Pat. The ethos of the Merlin Rocket class has got to be limited development within the class rules - hence the use of carbon (which after all used to be wood or plant material of some form!) and kevlar. And anyway, the Thames pothunters as you refer to them are only spending their money as they see fit which is their perogative. I think all the vintage boats are great whether they have wooden, metal or carbon spars, cotton/dacron or kevlar mains or a bit of carbon cladding. The latter, incidentally, is something my father Barry has done on the transom of Fair Kop 1212 for strengthening purposes only (like Avenger 1004). It has no effect whatsoever, as I see it, on the boat's performance. All this talk about the unfairness of carbon/kevlar v original vintage set-up is a bit of a misnomer anyway. The last race of the Thames open was won by Phil Dalby and Liz Page in a tin rigged boat with pretty old sails. He just sailed his way to a win in a proven vintage design - a Proctor Mk 9! I think the boat's design is far more relevant to performance. |
PS - we will be holding a individual handicap pursuit for the last race of Tammy's vintage open this Saturday, the prize of which is going to be the Southcott Cup, first awarded to Cadets at Tammy in 1948. The Club thought a bit of silverware recycling was the order of the day! |
I can see where you are both coming from and quite rightly so owners are at liberty to spend there money as they see fit. I would do the same, if i had any! I have just chose ethically to keep 908 originally in the spirit of the word Vinateg. |
I beg to differ Richard on the deck-stepped point. Kate No 1 is deck-stepped and always has been. It's just a case of the cycle of fashion - deck-stepped/hog-stepped/deck-stepped is the order of change I think over the years. |
Blow me you're quite right actually, I eat my words on the deck step business. Do you sort of concur on the rest though? Witha slight grimace would you agree there is an element of truth in what I am saying, not that it will change a damn thing!? |
Richard - you have a point but only if you're arguing a purist's case. I don't honestly think you can be that purist when it comes to a limited development class. Not all vintage Merlin Rockets/Merlins/Rockets are the same anyway. They have different hull shapes, different configurations, different set-ups etc etc that came and went over the years. Some of the carbonised boats still have tin masts (like my pa's). Also, with the 30 year rule in the vintage wing, my boat 3233 Total Eclipse, an NSM1, will be eligible in four years. It's a sort of modern merlin (in terms of the hull shape) from the very early 80s. How vintage would you say that boat is? |
Gannet 252 is deck stepped as is Secret Water 111. 111 has the original wooden mast (cut down from 25' when the rules were changed I suppose) but that's part of her history. 252 has an alloy mast now (wooden one rotted away I suppose) but expense prevented me buying a wooden new one from Collars. BUT it would have looked nice and been in keeping with here era. The cotton sails on both are long since gone and I had to get new sails for both boats - second hand but modern cut sails were tried and the boats wouldn't sail at all!! So I bit the bullet and got sails cut for the rigs and now they sail well (even if I don't!!). I did ask Mike McNamara to make them for Gannet with a creamy coloured cloth so they looked like the old cotton ones and he has done a lovely job. Hope those that have seen Gannet agree. (He also did the same for No 36 Terrapin). She also sails better than could have hoped. |
Richard, |
I'm not against deck stepping as such, just converting a boat into something it wasn't designed for and then calling it "Vintage". It's also very noticeable at most Thames vintage events that the carbon/kevlar modernised boats go off ahead leaving the rest of us to have a good race between ourselves. They also don't bother to travel on the circuit apart from Thames events. I do feel two trophies would be appropriate, for modernised and non-modernised boats. |
Interesting debate ! |
The penultimate paragraph in 3404's comments is really what this debate is all about keeping 'Vintage' boats 'vintage'. How often do you see a at say the Goodwoood classic/vintage events a 40/50s Bugati converted with all round carbon disc brakes, elctronic engine management system. paddle gear changers on the steering wheel, etc etc? Never, and the reason being the owners of these fine vehicles want to keep the cars original and VINTAGE and the same applies to the 40's, 50s and 60's Merlins. |
Great debate, in Jan 1999 we qualify currently my boat is as near to dam it as built, but I have just asked a sail maker for a set of sails made of more up to date material. Do any of those concourse cars use synthetic oils I wonder ? |
Loads of NSMs have been upgraded to laminate sails, mainly i suppose becuase that's what's available second hand. I don't think it detracts too much from the boat's character as laminate sails didn't appear long after boats to that design. You can't really call an NSM vintage anyway! |
I guess some allowance has to be made for materials that either dont exist now, or are uneconomic to source..... |
You'd be suprised what the true enthusiast will put in their cars!! In fact unless it is an old car upgraded with a modern engine you should'nt actually use a synthetic oil as the old bearings etc would not be able cope with the modern additives. VINTAGE 20/50 oil is the order of the day in old classic/vintage cars, and for the true enthusiast you can even buy the oil in the original green can!! |
I would agree with that last comment as regards materials. Where WOULD you go to get a suit of cotton Merlin sails made (though I have managed to pick up a cotton spinnaker complete with the parachute type holes!!)? Perhaps the CVRDA sliding handicap scale is a good idea in these cases where the original PY is a start point but adjusted by the panel/committee on the day to reflect the upgrades which may have occurred. ie originality rather than purely age is rewarded. So rather than Vintage,classic,old etc which is generally a year of build criterion and generally applies to the hull as sail and mast upgrades often take place, an "Original" classificaton would be useful applying to the complete boat. The Merlin class also has issues of design changes especially with the 25 year rule in CVRDA coming up where original, and I emphasise original, modern designs but over 25years old are going to compete with ribbed boats of solid mahogany. The Handicap steps set by the MR association are pretty loose in this regard as they follow boat numbers. I sail my old boats week in week out and enjoy myself and if I can beat the guy this week who beat me last week then I am well pleased so believe me it's not a competitive thing but for some it is. |
As Garry has pointed out, the key here is not about the competitiveness in the vintage/classic wing it's about originality. Look at the CVRDA website (Classic, Vintage Racing Dinghy Association)ooozing with traditional values. You won't find much talk on their forum about carbon, kevlar etc,etc and if you did the moderator would no doubt be alerted! |
There is a good article about classic dinghies in Dinghy Sailing magazine this month pointing out the resurgence of interest in these older boats - witness our increasingly popular Vintage wing. And remember when they are gone they are gone. They can make old designs but they can't make old boats!! |
Aren't you all in danger of alienating certain sections of the 'vintage', 'classic', call it what you will fraternity with some, quite frankly, rather negative criticisms of those who decide to upgrade their boats. The reason people buy the narrow, vintage era Merlins and modernise them are many - the designs they choose are proven, there are quite a few kicking round to renovate, their narrow construction makes sailing them easy and comfortable, and they want, I think, to compete in the vintage circuit with boats that look a bit cool for want of a better word. Some of them, I think, have perhaps had other commitments to date which has prevented them from travelling too far afield. However, for example, seeing as how my father learnt to sail on the Norfolk Broads, he'll definitely be at Norfolk Broads YC next year in Fair Kop (a Jack Holt Passing Cloud). He also crewed Berry Ritchie in Crescendo at Dorchester this year. Perhaps, though, a bit of lobbying amongst our Thames members to sail further afield next season is in order. |
Interesting side thread we have going here (don't mind on top of 1493 history). When we bought the boat we accessed the equipmanet it came with. The boom was very heavy gold spar in bad order and had original alloy rig. The sails were not high aspect either. I reckoned that the rig wanted new standing and running rigging which could have cost £100, plus new main. Alex and I were lucky to find a rare high aspect carbon rig, boom and year old dacron main for £400. Do the maths and it was a simple choice! At the time I don't think there was much of a 2nd hand market for it, but increasing interested in old boats last few years I'm sure would cost more now. |
No idea on the spinnaker sizes at all. 2121 flies one, 1066 flies one, Mervyn flies one on Kato but not sure about Kate, Ben Marshall flies one on Fat Marcie, I don't but hope to fly a small one next year as it came with it - 5ft pole!! 36 - no spinnaker, no6 no spinnaker flown yet, 507 - no spinnaker (but it's so quick it doesn't need one!!) That's a rough summary of the boats at events I have been to which have been a distance from the Thames - Clywedog and Frensham and Dorchester - naught but a hop, skip and jump from Aberdeen!! |
I think you would get more boats travelling the vintage circuit if you changed the number of races to competed in order to qualify for the de May Trophy, say, the best eight or ten out of 16 events, not five as is currently the case. With five needed to qualify at present, all the Thames people need to do is five of the six current Thames events (Upper Thames, Minima, Ranelagh, Thames, Tamesis, Hampton). Or you could have like the Silver Tiller, with say eight events competed to qualify but across a stipulated range of different water types. |
908 has an old old rules kite and spinny pole the length of a walking stick which I intend to use. |
Richard, |
I'm not sure if more events would help in my days the Silver Tiller was only 4 races to count from a possiblt longer (certainly as long.) Fixture List. Fleets were bigger and journeys longer,- Very Few Motorways, Lower Speed Limits and less reliable trailers.- Fewer vehicles on the road though! |
But Pat (2121) was complaining that some of the Thames contingent don't travel to the other events away from the Thames clubs, so I was just thinking of the easiest way to force them to do so if they are serious about qualifying for the series prize. Also, I repeat, having individual handicap pursuit races with separate prizes (as Tammy will be doing tomorrow with a separate cup for the winner of the final pursuit race) must go some way to redressing the balance between the faster and slower boats that compete with each other on the vintage circuit. |
ST is 5 to 21 to count. Sounds like Vintage is 5 for 16 or so, i.e. about right. |
Only caveat is that some of the very old boats are not sailed in salt water or if the sea event happened to be on a particularly windy day then you would have scuppered the chances of someone who was not keen to risk the boat. I think things are about right the way they are but what if out of the 5 events to count from the 16 it was increased to 6 out of 16 BUT only 3 were allowed to be on the Thames to take out the "clustering" factor. It wouldn't cut down the entrants as there would still be the chance of improving your placing by doing as well as possible at all those Thames events and even someone with all the 1st places would be keen to sail to protect their overall standing. Does this make sense? |
Anyhow here is still a bit of a bargain even the trailer must be worth something. (By the way it is NOT mine!!) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270174758892&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017 |
Difference between vintage and silver tiller is that you have to do diffeent types of event for tiller so you can't win it just on the Thames. Maybe same rules for vintage - we've sailed sea in Essex and big water in Wales as part of the series. Or just divide into regions and do one from each region.... |
Oh and our kite is smaller than new rules and has a much shorter 6ft pole (only one!) |
Pat - Congratulations on being the 50th posting on this topic! Seriously though it does show how good and well used the forum becomes when there is a good topic for debate!! The level of debat has been great too. |
Indeed, and posted in good faith. All I can say long may as many Merlin Rockets of whatever vintage carry on competing against each other in whatever form or upgrade. The more the merrier! |
Here,here. |
A fine discussion that started off over what Ian Proctor described in 1960 as 'synthetic spars' |
Hurahh, for he's a jolly goodfellow, for he's a jolly good.............. |
Thank you. When I need your help I promnise to ask for it. |
Thank you. When I need your help, I promise to ask for it. |
Just a plea from the sea! The sea doesn't hurt a wooden boat. Its fresh water that rots it. Thats why wooden boats are put in mud berths for winter with a protective cover for the decks. Its the decks that rot first. Nice drop of salt water below and on the outside keeps the hull closed up and healthy. It really doesn't matter if the salt dulls the varnish. Its cheaper to revarish than re-deck. |
Jonathan - I'm jealous after Saturday's pumping race! Next week's wind forecast is just as bad too! Somebody mentioned Starcross... Must investigate. |
Rather unfortunate with the lack of wind over the weekend. Typically, today is better but back at work. Good to see a few visitors for the vintage event on Saturday but home boats only for the Thames Series event on the Sunday! Oh well, that's the way it goes I suppose.... Report up on Tammy website for both days. http://www.tamesisclub.co.uk/Racereports.htm |
...was there ever any resolution to this vintage/classic debate? |
Just re-reading this. Still working on the house Deepy, finishing the skirting boards today!!! Sadly your Jan 2010 prediction has already lapsed.... Still Alex seems keen to help me finish varnishing her this year. |
no one comment on my typos please... ;-) |
Jamie Stewart did a marvelous job on our Rater and so I took Seventh Wave to him to correct aq small hole in the deck and revarnish her. His varnish work is superb, better that that of his Uncle Albert (Ossie). He also tidied up one or two sratches in her sides, matching the colours wonderfully. Seventh Wave now looks fantastic! |