I bought merlin 3398 this summer and would like to repair some small damage to the paint and varnish.
The hull piantwork is in very good condition with a fantastic finish, the inside varnish is the same but with some foot worn areas.
Does anyone know what type of paint and varnish she is painted with and how it was applied to achieve such a good finish?

Dont know the history but from your description sounds like two part epoxy varnish which gives a fantastic piano like finish. Now others may correct me, but I think you need to stay with two part if you already have two part unless you want to strip the whole thing down to the bare wood and start again.

Make sure you do go back to the wood on the worn bits, and make sure its dry before you start, otherwise you just seal in the damp!

The more coats the better, and a really good sand down between coats to roughen the surface so that the new coat "grips" properly. At the end, sand with 1200 wet and dry, used wet and then polish (I use an automobile polish like AutoGlym)

Didnt read about the paint, but its a good bet its two part paint too and same comments apply.

The "old" wisdom (25 yrs ago) was that you could always put 1-pot varnish on top of 2-pot, but you should never put 2-pot on top of 1-pot.

So, touching up to keep the damp out during the season can be done with 1-pot, but come the winter you need to get all the old 1-pot off before re-coating with the 2-pot.

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but if it disolves with white spirit/turps, then it's one coat, if it only responds to thinners, it's two. some two will go on one with primer but best keep to what's already there. once you put one onto two, it's harder to go back to two as you have to take all the one off.

Hi Terry

I owned 3398 Out of the Blue until about 7 years ago and had her refurbished by Tim Coombe - I don't think any of the subsequent owners sailed her much and kept her garaged, so the finish probably dates from when I owned her. 

Tim used Epifanes an single pack paint on the hull and, IIRC, Blakes two pack varnish on the decks - it was a superb finish and seemed very hard wearing.  The varnish inside the hull was only touched up where needed and is probably the original Rowsell finish, most likely just single pack.

Hope you enjoy sailing 3398

Should have added - Tim uses a brush to achieve his excellent finishes, although attention to detail during preparation and some sort of voodoo magic are also alledgedly involved ;)

Thanks Dave,
The previous owner thought that the boat had been re-painted and varnished but didn't know when.
I have made some temporary repairs to the deck and interior varnish, to keep the water out,and used 2pack varnish and got no reaction so I assume that the varnish is all 2 pack. However the repaired areas are darker than the rest as I think the varnish has been on for quite a long time and the wood underneath to have faded a bit.
Is it possible to strip 2 pack varnish and if so how?

Terry,

I remember Laurie Smart once advising me that if a single pack paint or varnish has been on a boat etc for a long period of time i.e. several years, then a two pack will not react with a single pack. I tried it, he was right, as usual.

Hi Terry

Really pleased to hear that Out of the Blue is still going strong and being looked after!  I owned her for 4 years before Dave Lee (above) and was her second owner.  Great boat on open water - get her on the plane and she's on rails!  I can't comment on the paint as it was so long ago now, but Dave's comment is more up to date in any case.  She's always been well looked after, so very pleased to hear that trend continuing!  Have fun in her :)!

Jude

I too have an oldish boat 3280 that needs some attention. The varnish has de-laminated in the odd place or two and there are worn patches.
I'm not after a perfect piano finish just a weather proof one. 
I want to know if I am going to create problems for the future by touching up with one pack varnish. Currently I do not have the time to strip the boat back to the wood and apply 2 Pack.

Now where is that grade 80 glass paper and belt sander ?

TIA 

Matt Baker

There is much less advantage in using two pack compared to the better one pack varnishes these days. The Blakes Dura Gloss is your best bet, not quite as good their previous product but still a match for two pack, easier to use and more temperature tolerant.

It will also flat and polish after a couple of days where International's Goldspar will not.

Would agree with Chris M's comment - and for goodness sake don't let a belt sander anywhere near it - but then you wouldn't on any boat (would any of you?????)

Stripping two pack is not really any more difficult than single. Nitromors/scraper or heatgun/scraper.

Just be careful with the heat gun.

Garry,


What's the problem with using a belt sander? Orbital I can understand as it could mash the grain but surely a belt sand is in effect the same as what you are doing manually without the effort?

Belt sander ....

Most of the ply used had a (very) thin veneer of the "nice" wood (sapele, mahgony - whatever was ordered). It's quite easy to go through this with a hand sanding block (as I discovered in very small places on 3387). A belt sander is far more efficient at removing everything....

That's the answer I would have given.  A belt sander is so efficient you will be through the ply as quick as look at it.  If you are dong up an old boat then it is likely that she will have the top veneer sanded a few times in her life already and once you are through the top layer that's it.  Look at Mervyn's Kate and you will see that there are patches where the top layer has gone over many strip backs.  That will be even worse with a belt sander.  So, sorry guys, it is scrape off with a delicate heat gun (Argos do a cheap one which has a low rating.  If you are going to varnish be VERY careful as wood chars well below the surface.  Chris Barlow gave me a tip which was to use Nitromors and then a power washer which worked well on Gannet.  It also blasted all the rot out of the keel so I knew what I had to replace!!!!  As a matter of interest in our toilet at work the cleaner had left a spray bottle of Mr Muscle multi-surface cleaner which had leaked.  The paintwork on the window sill had all blistered and softened and I was able to scrape it off with my finger nail (just testing!!) so I do wonder........  possibly epoxy would be resistant.

Eh Garry, all the same I think I will give the Mr Muscle a miss although I have more stripping to do!!

Fortunately I have stripped the decks on 908 using a ....wait for it ....... blow torch! Shock, horror, you all gasp but amazingly not one single scorch, the trick was to work quickly using a good sharp Scarsten scraper and not to apply to much heat in any one area otherwise rightly so big problems!

 My big problem has been that the previous owner for some bizzare reason had stained the decks so I have had to do some serious sanding with P40! to bring then back to their original beautiful honey colour. There were a number of relatively small holes in the deck which I have filled with a mix of epoxy and microfibres, that bit is the bugger to sand, any tips for remoning excess epoxy? Next phase strip inside of hull and epoxy fillet loose joints etc. All subject to bimble clearance from the dearly beloved!

Remove epoxy with a heated up chisel - it goes through it like a knife through butter.  Leave it slightly proud and finish off with sandpaper.   The microfibres work well but they are not a great colour match.  Go for the sawdust (you should have plenty!!) and epoxy mix.  It may be that you will find it hard to get the honey colour back as that is the product of years of weathering and fading and you might end up with the darker mahogany colour as it would have been when she was built.  Trick is to sand lightly and don't go too deep.  You are 100% correct when you say keep the gun/torch moving.  Never allow the gun to hover when you are scraping!!

Thanks Garry.

Yes I have lots of sawdust! Problem is the by product of the b-awful stain is a very dark filler when mixed with resin hence the use of MFibres on the lighter wood. 

Will try the chisel effect. Assume it needs to be just hot enough to slice through the epoxy but not too hot to scortch the wood?

Cheers

It doesnt need to be that hot actually.  A bit of a heat up with the blow torch at the end of the chisel!!

Or you could make your own special coloured sawdust with free off-cuts from wherever - try your local timber merchants for example - Champions would be a good choice.  Use a belt/circular power sander on the offcuts and collect the resulting dust with a dustpan and brush.

Didnt someone post on here before saying bits of broken glass make the best scrapers?

Mags, I do believe you are right. I think they also mentioned that if not done properly a transfusion also comes in handy as a result of the severe lacerations!

Make sure that you get a slightly convex shape or you can really gouge lines out of the ply - oh and use thick leather gloves.  Go to a double glazing yard and beg a few old panes!!  It's amazing how little scraping you get out of a piece of glass before it goes blunt.  BUT it does do a great job.

According to http://www.boatpaint.co.uk....

Any existing coating
A two pack product can only overcoat another two pack product, whereas a single pack product can be applied over either two pack or a single pack product. If you decide to change from a single pack to a two pack system you should remove the single pack system first to avoid any risk of incompatibility.

John,

I agree with the statement regarding two and one pack non compatability however as per my earlier post if the paint system is a certain vintage a two pack system I was advised that it is unlikely to react with single pack. I say this as I used to own a Solo which Laurie Smart completey refurbished for me and the inside of the boat was painted using a two pack weathersafe paint. I asked if it would react with the old single pack paint system and the answer was as per my earlier post.

Or get a panel scraper and learn how to sharpen it with a file and screwdriver. They last for ever and I've even seen them used instead of sandpaper to rub down paint and varnish.
An old trick that many wooden boat builders used to achieve the same overall colour was to rub down the bare wood with weak tea (Weaker lighter stronger darker.) and let it dry the resulting honey colour was good and even and the wee tufts of grain that stood up helped the first coat to bond really well. Bob Hoare used this at least on his FD's.

Richard, That sounds about right, once its completely cured, it wont react with anything....

I noticed on the same site that it says that 2 packs are not/less suitable for wooden hulls that flex a lot and that single pack is preferred. Maybe the site is out of date, paint technology changes so fast these days, but it would be interesting to know your views and others who have had experience of both.

A lot of modern single pack products are just as hard as two pack especially varnish. The thing with flexibility is aimed more at seriously old boats any glued clinker hull will be fine with two pack.

John,

I am no expert but I would say that with the more modern merlins there is virtually no flexing therefore a two pack system is OK to use as for the older boats, as they tend to flex there is the chance of the epoxy breaking down more so in areas such as decks etc. I'm sur the proffesionals like Chris M and Phil (DH) Scott will put me right on this and give a much more detailed explanation. I intend to use a single pack varinish on 908 which I am restoring purely on two counts 1) having the right conditions to use epoxy and 2) the rigidity of the stuff and with this old boat being flexy I could see cracks appearing fairly quickly.

When touching up worn patches on varnished wood, there is a tendency for the bare patches to come out darker than the surrounding.  If you touch in with Internationals UCP (Universal Clear Primer) first, for some reason this prevents the darkening.

Old Essex Shed Builders trick.....

GGGGGG

I don't think i've ever been called professional in my lfe!!

I would say if you wanted to 908 would be fine with two pack as well. It's glued clinker and glue, especially that age, will be considerably more brittle than the paint or varnish

The one pack paint that you're likely to use will no doubt be the premium version, mainly because it dries quicker. This is actually little softer than two pack the only real differane is it takes a couple of days longer to acheive full hardness. With varnish there is even less advantage in using two pack, the Blakes Duragloss is just as hard as the Diamond two pack version. International's Goldspar is not quite so good.

If you allow two paint to cure in a container you will see, and be suprised, just how flexible it is.

Thanks Chris.

What is it with Goldspar. I have heard somewhere else that Goldspar is not that good. Do you kno what the reasons are?

Thanks

Richard

Richard,

I've just re-done 3387 (inside) with Goldspar. I'm quite happy with the results - BUT I found that I needed about 8% thinners 333 (flow modifier). That made brushing much easier - and a better finish with few brushmarks.

Colin

It takes longer to harden off and goes crinkley if its not hard enough when you over coat it. The blakes is doesnt. I'd stick to the blakes.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/library/category.asp?cat=10

Ive used a fair bit of Goldspar and got very close to a sprayed finish by thinning about 5% and using a foam roller and tipping off with a foam brush, very quick to coat as well.

My father used Blakes varnish and paint on his restoration of Fair Kop 1212 which got it's first outing at Tammy today! He swears by Blakes.  Mind you, he always thins both the paint and varnish down a lot - better to have more layers of thinner coats than fewer stodgier ones. Ultimately, he says it will save you time with less wet'n'drying and will leave an almost spray-like finish.  His other tips are use a tack cloth followed by your own palm to remove any surface dust/specks etc, pour water on the floor around the boat to reduce atmosphere dust, and erect a polythene wall/ceiling around the boat to keep dust out and keep the air warm if varnishing/painting on colder days.  One thing to avoid is varnish/paint residue in the brush, which can be done by suspending the brush after painting/varnishing in a special concoction which I forget the ingredients of.  Anyway, these methods have worked a treat on Fair Kop who now has a glass like finish on her decks (admitedly new mahogany) but the original wood done this way certainly has a new lease of life.  Looks great with the modern rig and kevlar sails!  Apologies to the CVRDA.

Interesting stuff. Regarding stripping on 1493 I used a hot air gun to get off the top gloss layers, followed by Nitromors on the undercoat that was really in the grain. Very hard to get off in one go! Worse job was that wanted to varnish a previusly painted hull. Meant using a scaple blade at times to scrap out little bits of pigment from the grain (bit of a perfectionist me!)

I used a 2 pack sealer (WRA?) that Jamie recommended. Not cheap but really soaks into the wood and strengthens it when goes off.

Another view talking to Laurie is that he use to mix linseed oil in with the sealing coats. Apparently the oils help prevent the wood from darking if water gets in, say after a ding.

Agree hard to get a good finsh with 2 pack, so using that for build up and will follow with 1 pack as easier to apply.

Yet another option I've heard is to just use epoxy coating and buff that up giving a great hard wearing finish. Can't use West as it yellows, but the other common make is more UV resistant (forget it's name).

No epoxy is truly UV stable. SP 320 is the most UV stable but it's expensive and not the easiest of things to apply or overcoat as it's so waxy. SP106 or west 105 with 5 coats varnish is better in my opinion especially on an old boat where totally clear coating isn't necessary.

http://www.boatpaint.co.uk/acatalog/Boat_Paint_Catalogue_AwlGrip_4.html

Try using G4 pond sealer - that's what was used on Terrapin No 36 - in fact I don't think it has had anything else on top of it. Undedr restoration and repairs.   It's very hard and takes Blakes on top really well and doesn't cost a fortune.  See also Chris Barlow's Albacore some time - G4 only inside with Blake's Duragloss on top and I did Gannet No 252 the same way and it's very tough.  See Gallery on cvrda website and click new gallery and then Garry's project to see the inside of the hull varnished.