We are running a large sailing conference in Febuary next year which will focus on issue's effecting the Industry. While a large part of this will focus on the 'big boats', America's Cup, Round the world etc. One day will be examining dinghy racing, so I wanted to pick your brains on what kind of thing people such as yourselves would like to see discussed? Are there any issue's which are consitently causing problems/controversy in the world of dinghy racing? Be this financial, rules and regulations, development, opportunites for youth, basically anything that winds you up. Any thoughts are appreciated

1.	Why are there so many poorly built/ designed roto-moulded boats being released each year, resulting in reducing numbers in many large dinghy classes, and promoting handicap racing.

2.	Many good youth sailors get dropped from national squads after being told that they will be the next Ben Ainslie and then never sail again. 
As good youth sailors get dropped from squads (for example 420 squads) is there being enough being done to keep them interested in sailing?

Some of the ideas have been discussed at the recent RYA conference and are under discussion by the MROA.  However, comments from the floor are most welcome and will be thought about with interest.

steve

1. Widening the gene pool. Intoducing those from non-sailing families to sailing it may be just an impression bit its no where near as easy as it was.
2. Looking at different sets of rules per category, ie Dinghies one set Keel Boats another high performance another etc etc.

Cheers guys, really interesting topics so far!!!

Club sailing needs boosting - expensive clubs need to lower fees and encourage more fleet racing by limiting too many 'flash in the pan' classes from joining.

Sailing clubs show sailing as a sport for life, sadly too many young sailors are whisked off to events and 'squad training' and miss out on the grass roots of sailing.

as a mater of interest what would you guys consider 'expensive' for membership of a club???

I think more than �20 as a student is expensive for an average student club membership.

Rachel is absolutely right especially about new flash in the pan classes. Big fleets in theory do not always translate to boats on the water. Perhaps the bars and tea rooms are too confortable?

take a look at the joining and membership fees for Hayling Island SC, that might give you a 'heads up' for what I would call taking the preverbial.

One thing that is winding me up is that I can't go sailing due to looking after the nipper (well, she is 8 months old). Creche facilities would be an absolute bonus (any club in the West Country offering one would have my membership!), especially when people nowadays don't live close to their extended families.

Two person boats with Mum & Dad sailing doesn't leave much room for the baby. Do I have to go back to a single-hander until the little one starts Oppie sailing?

I know there is a huge issue with insurance, etc. but surely there should be a way round this? I suppose we would have to get approved / registered child-minders, so I can see why clubs are not interested.

My big gripe is the concentration of the RYA on youth, youth , youth for the Olympic classes. Most of the medals are won by guys in their 30's, 40's and 50's. There should be a system for finding talent in this age group and encourage existing champions to enter into the Olympic circus. This would give the team some maturity and correct attitude which some of the younger team members dont have. The 2004 470 gold medal was won by a team in their 40's which helps to prove the point.

Most of the people who go big boat sailing started as dinghy sailors, so don't ignore dinghy sailing simply because it does not appear to be a big proportion of the sport or industry.

The key to the pyramid is to have a large base, and this is the grass roots of the sport and needs to be the encouragement of club racing for all ages.

Fragmentation by too many classes and handicap racing does not have the draw of fewer stronger classes in a club, clubs that have a limited class policy seam to be the ones that prosper.  As a racer I would rather sail a c**p boat in a good fleet, than a good boat in a c**p fleet.

Whilst youth sailing in this country is successful it is c**p at retaining youngsters in the sport or feeding into the established but non-five ring classes.

The youngsters coming into Merlins and other traditional classes is mainly genetic, and these sailors have been successful, and by and large sail traditional dinghies because they enjoy sailing, I am not sure that the RYA youth programme achieves this.

Ultimately the key to success is reliant on enthusiastic volunteers at grass roots level prepared to work at and nurture, new or existing fleets, some of whom have been doing this for a long time and often to allow the next generation to have as much fun as we have.

I hope some one in authority from the RYA reads this, because it appears that they are too busy chasing grant money, sitting on committee's and allocating budget by their current membership breakdown, than to consider how and why people get into boating in the first place.

Well said David on the button!

Guys this is hugely appreciated, all very interesting and valid comments. However I would like to throw another one at you. Would you consider membership to be high, when you compare it to something such as membership of a golf club? Hold that thought, I have just checked the membership fee's for Hayling, do you get to sail on liquid gold down there or something? Still the point remains that Hayling is about the same costs as golf club membership, for the most part Hayling is actually slightly less.

However here is a point too that it doesn't cost £12000 for a new set of golf clubs if you are sailing at the top level in our fleet.  There are as we all should recognise loads of boats on our secondhand pages which will give great fun for a hell of a lot less.   On the comment made on subs by "Student", if a student/young person can't save less than 50p a week for a years sub of £20 then there is something far wrong - I think that's less than 1/4pt of best bitter a week so where are the priorities.

Well, as a relatively new member of Hayling, I agree it is not the cheapest club to join. 

The key expense is the joining fee, but that is spread over two years, with the second year payable over six months, and I don't think the family membership is unreasonable.

What do we get out of it? Well, I dont think anybody would disagree the new club house is excellent, with professionally run restuarant. Excellent training for youngsters with regular weekend training sessions.

Whilst the Merlin fleet is small there, and we race in Handicap, I thoroughly enjoy sailing down there.

cheers

Rich

I have to agree that Hayling offers a great deal more than most smaller clubs, the restaurant, wet bar, showers, underfloor heating etc.. are all fantastic - but to make the most of it you have to use it hard, get down there all possible weekends and during the week.  Personally - I can't afford to be more than a windsurfing member, I just don't have the spare money to join, I'd love to, but its just out of reach.

see Rachael I think thats maybe the point 'its out of reach' surely that should never be the case if they are trying to encourage people to get into the sport...

This is all fascinating and a thoroughly good forum discussion.

I started sailing with my Dad in a Merlin, then progressed (outside of the Youth Squad - being too fat for a Laser or any of the other boats in the Squad system) through single-handers and crewing Merlins. I spent more time at Uni racing for myself rather than team racing (too much of a clique) then had to sell up to fund the final year. Off and on boat ownership thereafter but each time getting involved in bunfights over money with the missus.

Yes, you can pick up second hand sails, etc. but if you aspire to the front end, you have to match the spend & kit & commitment. Family comes along and you have even less chance of getting the bits you believe you need, thats before you have joined a sailing club. Servicing a student loan or three makes this even more impossible for the future ranks of Merlin sailors.

How can we as an interested group make sailing more accessible to people who come out of uni or school with umpteen £K debts, try to fund their first house and then have a competitive ship at a nice club? Looks like the preverbial unicorn poop to me.

Wait until you are older, kids will be gone and then you can afford the time and the money for a proper sailing campaign. Its the middle-aged who have the dosh to spend on good gear. Look at the Merlin fleet!!! All they need is the encouragement. Come on RYA, support the guys who can join SAGA.

i thought hayling paid for its clubhouse from lottery money, so why do the joining fees have to be high to fund the restaurant, hot floors etc...

my 2p worth on the original subject raised by "organiser" is:
we need to make it easy for the general public to have a go at dinghy sailing. if someone wanted to try it out for a few hours, they should be able to book a helm and a boat for a tenner at their local club (in an ideal world). currently you have to find a mate willing to take you out, or wait for a club to run an open day, etc etc.
and as for trying a range of dinghies to see what suits...no chance!

make it as easy as hiring a surfboard on the beach, or going paintballing....

On cost of Clubs, average club membership fees seem to be around £50-60 per year and then the same again for boat mooring fees. Students and youths even less. The cheapest full membership I have found is Beer S.C. they have a nice shed as a club house as far as I can see. You get what you pay for and there is plenty of choice depending on what you want.

On cost of boats, again the choice is massive, there is plenty to choose from, which suit all depth of pockets, body size and fitness levels. You don't have to choose a class that requires the latest equipment to be competive, and there are plenty of different levels of competition to enter.

I have won more pots sitting in the front of a 30 year old Heron that was given to me (thanks Porkins), including the dubious title of 'Ladies National Champion Crew' than I have ever, or ever will, despite I have lots of middle aged dosh to spend on good Merlin Gear.

I know what kept my kids interested when they ware younger, and we didn't do any 'Youth Squad' stuff, was lots of little trophies and prizes, even if it was a prize for comming third in a series with only four boats, so who care but it is a reward.

Alan makes an interesting point about trophies and prizes. As i grew up in my local sailing club, i aspired to winning something to keep. Maybe it was a cheap plaque or mug, but i was pleased to recieve it and display it. These days many clubs only award the perpetual silverware but nothing to keep in a effort to keep costs down. Adults don't like clutter, but many kids do so maybe this cost cutting in the long term is self defeating.

Forfar costs £60 this year - a hike from last year but we are a small club and the clubhouse floor needed replaced - all done with voluntary labour!!  However if kids want to join it's about £20 BUT to hire a boat for a day to encourage people (Topper, Laser, Wayfarer) is £2 (yep TWO) and so we have a take up on that. You don't need to leap straight to a boat of your own to find out (expensively) that sailing is not for you. Everyone mucks in and facilities are limited (we are perched on an archeological site) but I never hear anyone say they aren't enjoying themselves.

I agree with Alan and Jon,  club racing is important, when I was young, it was the prizes that you wanted to win. Something to put on display. Obviously a 1st prize is better than a third, but a prize none the less.
Results were always in the local paper - do today's youngsters still keep scrapbooks?

I was fortunate enough to sail at coastal venue when during the holiday season some 15 merlins would descend for 6 weeks. Beating them in Gull MkIII on handicap was no mean feat.

It wasn't till I was winning everything and had got my own Merlin that the then Schools Sailing Association came into play - other people to beat, though the prizes weren't as good - a handshake from the Beak!

Experience and proficiency should be gained through serious racing at club level, then step up a grade.

I chose club racing over the youth squad.. at the age of 12. 

I'd been in toppers all around the country with my brother racing in big fleets and getting sucked into regional youth squads.. I didn't like the nature of it all - too much serious competition and all pretty unfriendly so I chose to crew a merlin with Will Warren - far more fun! Got to play with a spinnaker and race other boats in the river and at sea, mess around at Shoreham Sailing Club with the jackson boys throwing each other off the slipway and have a fun start to my sailing career.  

Sailing lots of different boats and crewing gave me more experience than I think I would have had sailing around in a topper or laser at the back of a big youth fleet.  

Nearly all of my friends from the old 'Youth' days have now completely stopped sailing. A few have drifted into the big boat scene after uni but the rest have hung up their wetsuits well before Uni and haven't looked back.

Or they haven't looked forwards Rachel.  I hadn't sailed for 35 years after we moved away from sailing venues and missed it until getting into the vintage Merlins 3 years ago.  Now having great fun (and regrets I didn't do it earlier) and that's what it really is all about for the majority.  Yep - I was second in our closing regatta last year but it was a surprise more than anything - can't say we were trying hard just enjoying the day!!

Rachel's point is a good one, ability in more than one type/class of dinghy should be encouraged. Different boats - different needs.

There is a local North West Junior Traveller Series www.nwjtt.co.uk, ten events round the North West. It seems to be focused on Juniors taking part at all levels, rather than the competition. My children have made some good friends from other clubs and enjoy going to the events. It is less serious than the zone squads but a good introduction to racing. Rachel makes a good point that it can be too intense, some of the parents are a bit too serious with 10-12 year olds.

At Leigh and Lowton Juniors are also in the general handicap which means my son (optimist)can race against his dad, beats me too!

Juniors are the clubs future and so need to have some of the club/fleets focus.

Lots of good common sense, not all of it in agreement, but the problem seems to be the elitist squads? At least as perceived. Too much choice these days.

Thanks Guys!!!!!!!