MERLIN ROCKET FORUM

Topic : Non release jib cleats

Boat is a Winder Tales with standard jib cleats. Generally these work fine, but crews have experienced problems on beat in v windy weather and have not been able to release sheet from the cleat resulting in boat being blown over despite main fully eased.
Looking to see if there is a solution other than tell the crew not to use the cleats!
Some talk at our club of a similar problem faced by an RS200 helm who had similar problem with main sheet cleat. They have filed down the teeth on the top half of the cams reducing the effective cleating area. They say it works well.

Any other ideas?


Posted: 05/01/2007 12:48:41
By: Other Chris
Suggest cleats are working fine and its the crews arms that need adjustment.............


Posted: 05/01/2007 13:21:07
By: WP
Check the cleat positioning and maybe alter so that the sheet releases when pulled normally and has to be lowered to cleat. Also get smooth sheets (decent Excel racing or similar) and silicone spray the bits that go in the cleats. I have this problem with some of our sheets, especially on the old boat with badly positioned cleats and it gets worse as the sheets get wetter.


Posted: 05/01/2007 13:28:28
By: Pat2121
1. the jib should be played upwind all the time and should not be cleated off...but if you're knackered then sometimes you have to jam it off for a bit!

2. some crews tend to try and get the jib out of the cleat when a gust hits in a panic by yanking it in an upwards direction yelling "it won't budge! it won't budge $*%*(£($*%£$)£)!!!!!!!". Try getting them to pull the jib in towards them and lift - much easier as you're working with the cleat in the way it was designed rather than against it!!


Posted: 05/01/2007 13:45:28
By: crew
It's all about technique, simply raising the arm and yanking at the sheet won't work. Instead the crew needs some slack in the sheet then simply flick the rope upwards, note this will not work if the sheet is taught between cleat and crew. It really is that simple!!


Posted: 05/01/2007 14:11:14
By: ex crew
"the jib should be played upwind all the time"

Really ?? not heard that one before .....


Posted: 05/01/2007 14:56:30
By: .
Crew and ex crew

You are talking utter nonsense


Posted: 05/01/2007 15:08:29
By: WVM
At the risk of talking rubbish too.

1 - Ronstan sheets have different curvature than holt and harken, I would say the hardest to flick out are harken, followed by holt followed by ronstan, but you will have to spend a lot to find out what your crew likes

2 - you could reverse your cleats, so the crew only can cleat on the windward deck, this is how we used to set up graduates, i.e. hand held non hiking, and cleat available hiking, but this might make some of the spinnaker manovers difficult if you can cleat

3 - personally, I think it is timing, as the boat starts its, hopefully, slow turn head to wind, the jib should not be release, infact if possible it should be tightened, as there is a wind effect which I will call 'turning wind', then all of a sudden the power goes from the sail and it is easy to uncleat

4 - my crew, who is learning fast, still hasn't got the timing bit down to a tee and in heavy wind I don't want to risk a capsize due to the jib cleated on the wrong side, I ask her to uncleat and hold before comming in from hiking, she does this by holding the sheet taught and kicking it upwards with one leg, this way she is still hiked and the boat still flat

5- If you capsize just on the jib, I would say you had already capsized, as you left it too late to drop the main, the boat has heeled badly the crew is in an awkward position and cant reach down hill and by doing so leans into the boat, making the situation worse, by then even if it is uncleated so much topside is exposed in a big gust the boat would get turned over. Solution, try and keep the boat flat by anticipating gusts and easing the main in good time, if it looks like a nasty gust is comming knock off the kicker (on the beat, if you can't feather up into the wind, it is hard to capsize head to wind.

As for the crew playing the jib, maybe thats were I have been going wrong, in a boat creeping along a river bank, or with a genoa, I would do that, but on a Merlin, on the beat, in hiking conditions, I would set it up and let the helm steer to it, and spend my time concentrating on rig adjustments/kicker/keeping it flat and the race course. Saying that, I'm far from the front of the fleet, so i probably am talking rubbish.


Posted: 05/01/2007 15:44:31
By: Alan F
p.s. one other though came to me, cause I do it with inexperienced crews who get into 'it won't uncleat problems', or leave it cleated through the tack is   ........... the helm uncleats it ........ i know that simply isn't allowed that the helm should touch anything that is the crew's job, but it is a simple solution.


Posted: 05/01/2007 15:51:31
By: Alan F
I'm just saying that in an ideal world, the jib should be played constantly....does the breeze come from one direction constantly...does it hell!! If the helm reacted to every slight shift with the tiller (which acts as a break in the water) then you would be pretty slow. The crew should keep an eye on the trim and telltales constantly in order to keep boatspeed at max. 

I agree when it's really blowing dogs of chains you adjust jib cars, bang the bugger in and cleat it! yanking the rope out of the cleats is no good for wear on the rope, teeth on the cleat or your crews' arm so try the method I suggested above and see if that works.

Just a tip!


Posted: 05/01/2007 15:54:36
By: crew
I agree with ex crew - A slack soggy cleated jib sheet has a lot of momentum.  A quick flick up wards removes it snappily from the average cleat.

I still don't know why Merlins are obsessed with upward releasing cleats. The aft facing, vertically mounted variety (as championed by Lawrie Smart and others) are infinitely superior in my view. No nasty friction when playing the sheets on a windy two sail reach, for a start, and they can be conveniently located beneath the side decks clear of our crew's delicate posteriors.


Posted: 05/01/2007 16:23:33
By: The Old Trout
Rob plays the jib upwind in our boat. Main goes out 1 foot, jib goes out 2 inches. Keeps slot open, stops the boat stalling and definately makes it go faster.

We have Harken cleats and no problems. (Winder Tales).


Posted: 05/01/2007 17:42:08
By: Chris M
New Winder Mk something.

Sure, jib cleat gets stuck sometimes. I guess a matter of practice to spot it coming and practice to overcome it. Blame the crew if you like, but in a new crew helm relationship its up the 'knowledgeable' one, probably the helm, to instruct about this one of many traps for the new crew. I find the 'stuck' spinnaker is another. What traps have you all discovered?

For a starter:
recleated 'cos sat on (who put that seat there?)
why did the uphaul get knotted by itself?
what are those pulleys at the bottom of the boat for? they have trapped the little rope.
the spinnaker sheets too short (cleated)
"snodger!"
stop standing on my rope!


Posted: 05/01/2007 18:06:10
By: Chairs
In my experience the jib will only not come out of the cleat in a swift tack with slightly less space than is comfortable onto the starboard layline at a crowded windward mark {8->


Posted: 05/01/2007 18:21:41
By: Andrew M
I have tried to play the jib but have on a couple of occasions been pulled off the deck into the boat with the force of the wind.  Or indeed this has happened when uncleating the jib for a tack. Has this happened to anyone else?  and is there anything I can do about it other than eat pie.


Posted: 08/01/2007 12:58:03
By: light crew
2:1 jib sheets - more string, less pies.

My motto is more string and more pies - but that's another story.


Posted: 11/01/2007 18:30:46
By: Hank of Marlow
Old fashioned Novex Blocks by Lewmar (As the final turning point.) if you can get them,The Boat Barge at Bursledon had a few a couple of years back, the modern ratchet blocks(Harken etc.) are on or off but Novex can be adjusted to personal preference and only come on under strain. Hell on rope but you can't have everything. Barton used to make one but I'd hazard a guess not any more, Novex was neat as well as efficacious.


Posted: 11/01/2007 18:38:42
By: Ancient Geek
As after 50 years Lewmar's patent on these must have run out Mr Geek will be delighted to know that several manufacturers including Holt and Ronstan now make automatic rachets on pretty much the same principle as the old Tufnol jobbies that I used to own (came from the bits I inherited from 1174 which was broken up and burnt in East Cowes)


Posted: 12/01/2007 09:37:18
By: Andrew M

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