At Broadwater we have 5 Merlins racing 3 NSM2,1 NSM3 and one older boat we are having problems getting the SC to give the lolder boats yardstick what is it and to which boats should it apply any help much appreciated

See the link

I presume clubs using a sliding scale of handicaps take into account the design rather than just sail number ?

Just been giving this handicap thingy a little thought and my fuzzy logic (too much Adnams) indicates that as our class develops and gets quite rightly faster and faster we poor so and so's with old creaking  craft get dragged along the handicap scale when in fact we are not developing (except our paunch perhaps).  I wonder if we need to look at freezing the old boats handicaps unless it can be shown that their natural competition is going faster.  That would mean the club bar room lawyers getting involved and handbags at 20 paces.

Of course its OK when its a mixed bag Merlin fleet but in a general handicap fleet we have a Martine-V-some dream machine the paint of which is barely dry.

Just a thought.

Jonathan has a point here.  Whenever the PY for the class is altered by the RYA, we would need to make an alteration to the adjustments for old boats to avoid them being penalised unfairly.

I think I'll start drinking Adnams - in vino veritas!

The handicap is adjusted see the above link, it is RYA approved from what I understand, but at the clubs discretion as to adhere to it or not.  My club wouldn’t adjust my handicap or that of a 60's Merlin.  (One of the reasons I sold the boat)  The problem is that although you don’t develop your boats, you still have the option to change things, such as deck stepping, carbon rig etc.  That unfortunately is one of the downsides to racing in a development class.  How many of us have seen modernised OLD merlins sail past us??? 

What you really need to do is get you club to look at the approved handicap changes.

Russ that perhaps demonstrates that no withstanding all the fuss about hull shapes the rig is (As the engine!)as; if not much more; important to boat speed. Anew rig does wonders especially if it's self adjusting and allows you to keep your head out of the boat and not rocking and rolling in a non- boat speed way disturbing wind and water flow killing carefully built up speed.

100% right

I guess I will have to find new rigs of carbon and kevlar and pop them on my old boats. But will the strain be too much for the hull.  If I do this then I shall be framing them up which might just spoil the lines. I have seen this in my travels and if anyone out there has a set to give away then do let me know.  I have both a deck stepped and hog stepped boat. And one of my locals has just put on tap Woodforde's Wherry and Crouch Vale Harvest Gold, yum yum.

i'd stick to adnams

With all those beers on offer I can't wait 'till the Brightlingsea event!!

Seriously I do think the handicaps for old boats should be fixed as they vary when the main handicap for MR changes. Our club set 1076 for boats numbered below 2170 and PY for the rest. It has worked until 2806 joined us because we were all older boats but we'd now like to go to the oficial version of stepped handicaps or at least more fixed steps.

in my experience the handicaps for old boats need some attention. they are randomly selected with cut offs that are straight from the hand book and correspond to year changes NOT design changes, theirfore you can have a design that was built for say 4 yrs and a december boat has a different handicap to a jan boat....and then came along the 6ft plus beam boats, you should really look at giving each design a handicap or at least giving a boat built in 1965 the SAME handicap as its sister built in '63, make sense??

The 10 year bands do kind or correspond to design changes in that, for example, the first py adjustment starts at 3412 which is the boat before the origional Tales. It's not as random as it appears!

What you can't legislate for are boats that appear years - in a few cases decades - after their time, like the 32xx numbered Smoker the 34xx NSM1 and the last NSM II which is a 35xx numbered boat.

If you could say for certain that all club handicap officers know about merlins and their design changes then an association sponsored design handicap scheme could work, but given that the places this is most likely to be used will have one or two boats in handicap racing the handicapper is not likely to be interested or have the knowledge to do it properly - it's hard enough to get some clubs to use the system we have!

I'd say that clubs with large fleets or with a Merlin sailor setting the handicap probably handicap by design anyway.

To what extent, though, do you think you are measuringreal changes in design performance and to what extent the fact that in any class old boats tend to be less well maintained, less well set up, less well sailed and generally underperform? Over the years the official Merlin PY was the equivalent of 1040 in 1973 thro to at least 1989, 1021 in the mid 90s, then 1024, now 1021 again I believe. The National 2 PY hasn't moved much either, movng from equiv of 1117 down to 1093. The only classes that have really changed much are those that have gone in for major rule changes. 3 seconds a lap boat speed advantage is a big deal in a class race, but it doesn't make much difference in handicap terms!

There was a major debate at the recent RYA race management conference I attended about handicap racing.  No major conclusions that I recall except much head scratching about the foiling Moth.

There a number of interesting thoughts expressed in this thread which the Committee will explore further.

It all goes to show what a bad idea Handicap Racing is.

Sometimes I think that people lose track of what club handicap racing is about. With the large spread of abilities and money you get a real mixed bag on thw water. Surely it is about giving everyone a chance of picking up a pot at the end of the year and having bloody good fun. If you go on the water believing that you have been handicapped out of it even before the gun has gone then you justy might as well go cruising! Our club applies the merlin recommendations for old boats and the racing is very tight with races often being lost by seconds although the best sailors will nearly always come through If a lesser light sails a blinder then they get the plunder. Club handicap racing is not the nationals!

The last boat in a race is at least as important as the first, without the last there would be no first!

Do the old boat handicaps, prizes etc. only apply to boats that conform to the rules and measurements that were current at the time that they were built ?

That is an interesting question.  Asked the other way around, have there been significant rules cahngeds that have changed the speed of the boat.

I have not been around the class long enough to know the answer, I  know there have been 2 spinnaker size changes including pole lenghts, which clearly change the off wind speed, but spinnakers can be considered a consumable in any competetive racing boat, so upgrading is relataively easy in the normal maintenance cycle.

Was permitting carbon rigs a rule change, or was that always permitted, just advancement in technology?

I know there were some technical hull shape restrictions (rise of floor?) but was that not to stop a design abuse and closed off quickly.

Anything else? I'm sure this could keep a fe people busy during their lunch hour.

Not certain but logic would dictate that hull shape is grandfathered unless as with the Adur Mk 6's the certificate is withdrawn, or it has been distorted deliberately, but all other respects may conform to latest rules and then they race level, what the Vintage and Classic Guys say or even the handicap sailors, would be up to them, however clearly an original in every respect deserves a more generous handicap than a carboned, deck stepped, stiffened up, hull of a certain age.

Words of Wisdom from Mr Floppy Toppy
"Club handicap racing is not the nationals!"
Handicap racing is unfair - period - accept the number you are given an enjoy the sailing - it better than doing chores at home whatever handcap you are given!
IL

So lets get something straight if a merlin is 30 years old but has been updated with deck stepped carbon rig with new laminate sails twin poles new rules big spin etc etc, does it sail off the adjusted handicap?  Obviously when it was built it didnt come with the above.  or is this a grey area ???

If you play golf you want as low a handicap to show how good you are.  You strive for years to lower your handicap.  You know that you are not good enough to be a pro and you get on with it.  You accept you may not win but take the kudos of a lower handicap.  A similar approach is found in handicap horse racing.  However when it comes to handicap sailing people want the handicap that helps them win rather than makes the sport better.  It is a funny old world!  Don't worry about the handicap worry about your performance!

As good an argument against handicap racing in MR's as you'd hear or read.

That is quite right, but unfortunately most people dont have the benefit of fleet racing every week, therefore the handicap is very very important.  You cant compair golf to sailing! the handicap is personal ability in golf, not on equipment like sailing.  Also if there was no handicap system how could a merlin compete against a 49er

There is no definative answer for this. There will be people who are fortunate enough to be able to own a new or newish fully carboned up merlin who will not want any possibility of someone in an old, patched up, tin rigged, knackered dacron sailed, small spinnakered merlin beating them so, they will whine on and on about handicap numbers and how all merlins should sail off of the same number after all they are a merlin! Really this is a slightly silly discussion as clubs should sort out the handicap that produces the best racing in their handicap fleet. Sailing needs to encourage people to participate, sailing whatever they can afford and to keep them in the sport they need to feel that they have a chance of a pot or two.

The performance of all boats is heavily dependent upon the talent of those who sail them if you thin otherwise I am sorry for you, kit also clearly pays its part but if you must have handicaps there's a lot to be said for personal ones.

(:-I think you miss understand the reason for the PY system its to make sure that all boats of different classes can compete on a fairly even playing field(granted it doesnt always happen that way) Obviously it is dependant on the tallent. But if we didnt have handicaps how could even the BEST merlin sailor beat me on the water if i was sailing a 49er, Unless i was upside down it would be nearly impossible.  Personal handicap in sailing is not a good idea, it just over complecates an already complicated handicap system.  My question was though if a classic merlin had all the latest kit on, carbon deck stepped etc etc what handicap does it sail of because tech. it was built 30 years ago.

Maybe we'll never agree. You maybe miss the point it's still a Merlin Rocket built to a rule to race level with others with current certificates  built to the same rule albeit at different times.
Personal handicaps work well in local handicap classes and like golf handicaps are adjusted as performance increases or decreases giving that supposed valhalla of a level playing field personally I'd let talent, age, maturity and technology rule but people seem to need excuses for not winning.

(:- I think you argument that all boats within the same class should have the same handicap is sound for a SMOD class but not for a class that has developed over 60 years.

This seems to be a big greay area, as there is no restriction on upgrading an old boat with the latest bits to get a favourable handicap based on the hull shape, which on restricted water can often be an advantage anyway which is why the top guys have two hulls to choose from depending on the venue.

Seems this is a loop hole in the class.

Personal handicaps may be a better and fairer method to eliminate the above loop hole, but far too difficult to administrate and allocate on a national level. Also dont forget that its personal ability that provides the winners, same as everything in life. For a personal handicap system to be truly fair, then after one hours racing everyone in the fleet should cross the finish line at exactly the same time !! This eliminates personal ability, and so comes down to the quality of equipment, and will lead towards cheque book sailing even more so.

For cvrda events we have boat individualised handicaps. This puts the boats on a more even footing, taking into account age and originality and ensuring that the 60 year old boat with wooden mast and cotton sails has as much chance of winning as any other - and often does as he's a good sailor! 

Generally the committee members look at a new boat and set a figure. It's not formal (very little is with cvrda) and is open to discussion and amendment.

Mervyn has included some events in 2007 as joint events for cvrda and vintage wing and if I'm doing the results on sailwave as usual I will run the results on both cvrda handicaps and vintage merlin handicaps so the comparison can be made and both the Merlin series and cvrda travellers series are scored consistently throughout.

Bristol - Baltic Wharf in Brunel's floating harbour, 
Brightlingsea - Essex creek, estuary and (only if the weather's good) sea sailing, 
Frensham Pond - Surrey pond with top sailors, 
Netley - new event in Southampton, 
Shearwater - Lord Bath's pond at Longleat 
www.cvrda.org or the vintage section of this site for details.

It's not a loop hole in the class rules unless the class is now a handicap class.

well of course it is. If is was not then we would be ONE DESIGN which we are not.

The only handicap should be the Helmsman and crew!

but that is just not the case in the Merlin Class is it ?

we are NOT a ONE DESIGN class such as the RS400 where I fully agree your comments would be valid and correct.

Sadly you omit the concept which is that of the Merlin Rocket and numerous other classes of a "Restricted" class built to a formula within a set of rules to race "level". That was the already existing situation for instance in the International 14 Class when the Founding Fathers of the Merlin Rocket class conceived it in 1946.

troll ?

Merlin Rocket Handicap Class.
Here's a thought.
All boats competing under handicap will display the standard class insignia emboldened with a bar sinister under the base of the triangle.

(Maximum beam - 7ft) X (Mast weight/length) X (age of hull squared X number of ply laminates where applicable) {alternatively age of hull squared X glass cloth standard weight} X (overall length - 14feet) 
______________________________________________________________ 
Divided by
______________________________________________________________

Total age of crew X total length of control lines (tapering sheets to count 
double).  

The handicapping formula will come into effect Midnight March 31st 2007 to be trialled in Silver Tiller and National Championships and competitors in these events should ensure that each of the aforementioned components is known accurately to the nearest mm for lengths and the nearest gramme for weight and is available to scrutineers on demand.  This formula is designed to produce a figure which normalises every design of Merlin, Rocket and the Merlin Rocket to be able to race on a equable basis.   Should large discrepancies between fresh and salt water results appear after the 3 year bedding down period the “Maldon” factor will be applied but at present it is thought that the calculations for handicappers may prove a little irksome and will be omitted.

have tried to work out how the formula goes in practice and find that virtually all boats built before 1994 will have a negative handicap (max beam - 7ft)

Please return to drawing board & come back with updated formula!

i think (:- has been down the pub this lunch time.

All boats would actually have zero, as the last multiplier is (length - 14) = (14 -14) =0

It seems the Merlin Rocket Class does not do irony. That's the point

Is Merlin irony some sort of heavy centreplate?

Surely to make sense of this formula, you should DIVIDE by (length of boat - 14ft)

I think he should have gone down the pub instead of spending lunchtime in front of the PC.

great debate!
so why do people have two boats?  some surely the same reason people have two dogs? Some just like them.

Personalised handicaps work.
So do age related boats handicaps.

But the serious races still have all comers and no allowance for age or kit within the rules.

We have handicaps for other reasons, like trying to give fun and entertainment to the widest range of MR enthusiasts.

The only problem  seems to be how seriously the non serious (Handicap.) races are taken. It weasn't booze it was painkillers couldn't get to the pub if I wanted to, but it wasn't serious math either it was reductio ad absurdum.
Chair has put a reasoned admirably succinct argument its only a game and the last boat is as important as the first.

The argument is always that if you get the handicaps right then all the boats will finish at exactly the same time.  What it's designed to do is surely reward the sailor who on that particular day has a performance much better than their usual one with the kit including brain that they normally use.  That is a significantly different game from the 1st past the post with whatever means are available within a particular set of rules.  Merlins have always gone for the latter & I enjoy that game even if I am not good at it.  But we can also have prizes (Holt Plate) for the former game that are less serious.

I know the formula wasn't serious but we could think up a similar one that would sort of work!

I suspect that the Ancient Geek has returned as (:-

correct ????

Just like Dr Who a regeneration is good at Christmas time.

By the way A Happy Christmas to everyone and a good New Year.

it was the latin that clinched it !!!

Happy Christmas

Same paululum lingae Latinae dico!

Never mind handicaps - it is all fun.  Best moment for me was sailing a boat which was built in 1947 (111) at Hampton last year in an open event finishing 15th-ish out of 30-ish.  Here was a boat which hadn't sailed in 25 years or more, brought back to life and was again enjoying herself and not worrying about winning. (Mind you the helm was brilliant - thanks Mags)

It does seem that Handicaps; are with some people at any rate; a "King Charles' Head" there has to be a way to satisfy those people who do not like level racing apart from entering All Comers Handicap Events. Local handicaps seem to work well where local conditions and the suitability of them to the class or hevean forfend design within the class are taken into account, maybe even ability and age of the crew and helm as well as boat. The subject keeps coming up.

Some very pertinant comment in "Roll Tacks" in Yachts and Yachting this issue!

Some very pertinant comment in "Roll Tacks" in Yachts and Yachting this issue!