Topic : Sailing this Winter in London

Now a true Londoner, I was hoping do some proper river sailing through the Winter possibly at Thamesis. So, I'm after a good river boat thet’s not too far away, that will not take much work to get it floating, that will be up to sailing around through the winter, and finally that doesn't cost too much? I was thinking of an old Smokers Satisfaction or similar.

Also, could anyone from Thamesis advise on how much it might be to do the Winter series and keep a Merlin at the club?


Simon B.

Posted: 16/10/2006 10:48:34
By: Simon Blake
Obvious really look down a couple of posts "Winter Sailing" it's all there.

Posted: 16/10/2006 10:50:00
By: ):-
And there's even a second hand list in the site Simon.

Posted: 16/10/2006 11:17:27
By: ):!
Simon, have a look below re: Tamesis winter racing. Basically, two options A/B.

Option A - Travellers Trophy (Jan-March 07) 24 races; £80 (boat/helm/crew - boat stored at Tamesis), £65 (boat/helm/crew - boat towed away every weekend).
Option B - Black Mark Trophy (Full winter series Nov 06-March 07); £88 (individual winter membership) + mooring fees.

With over 50 Merlin Rockets at Tammy, I'm sure you could find a willing individual not utilising their yacht to its full potential to agree to lend or even sell her to you. In fact, there's at least one I can think of - Precious 3333 (NSM2) whose owners don't want anymore.

PS - Simon (and everyone else who seems to forget), it's TAMESIS CLUB not THAMESIS or THAMESIS SAILING CLUB. Not shouting, just trying to clear up any confusion once and for all! : )

Posted: 16/10/2006 11:36:42
By: Richard (3233)
Tamesis - full membership options...

Posted: 16/10/2006 12:19:54
By: Richard (3233)
Hi Simon,

It would be great if you do join, there is going to be excellent sailing there this winter with all of the usual suspects + Richard Harris making a return and Jon Redding + David Vines joining the fleet - should be v. high quality sailing with 20 + boats out each week.

Harris lot are good for advice on river boats.



Posted: 16/10/2006 13:25:05
By: DV
Sounds like it's going to be a Ding Dong Winter series at Tammy. 

Who else is going ?

Here's a list of just the people I "hear" may be saling:

Rob Wilder
Andrew Harris
Richard Harris
John Harris
David Vines
John Redding
Simon Blake
Martin Hunter
Robert Harris
Mike Stevens
Jo McLauglin
Phil Plumtree
Anthony Gifford
David Baker
Berry Ritchie
Colin Stokes
Peter Mason
Richard Mourant
Barry Mourant
Ken Duffell
John Adams
Peter Simpson

And there's certainly a few more I can't think off.

Forecasting over 20 boats so if you want some good winter racing in a very nice friendly club come on down and join for the winter.

Posted: 16/10/2006 13:41:42
By: WP
and me - i'll be there.

Posted: 16/10/2006 13:48:26
By: Mark Ampleford
Suzy and I will be sailing (assuming my dodgy knee allows!)

Posted: 16/10/2006 13:52:40
By: Chris (3062)
Tis true, I am making a return to regular racing and have purchased 3258 Hot Spot to race at Tamesis this winter and onward. 
The boat hasn't seen the water for over 15 years but is the perfect river design (Quatermass) and I'm looking forward to getting her wet.


Posted: 16/10/2006 13:57:08
By: Richard Harris
Thanks for the info. 

I'm trying to avoid buying one because the chances are it will only get used this winter. Does anyone per chance know of anyone that might be up for chartering a suitable ship to use until March? If not I will begin scouring the second-hand boat list for a lucky winner.

Really looking forward to the racing, it sounds great!

Posted: 16/10/2006 14:32:27
By: Simon Blake
Simon, well worth coming down to Tammy on a Sunday very soon to have a look/chat to some likely candidates.  As I said, we have over 50 Merlins in the boat park, so there must be a few out that lot that aren't used that could be chartered.

Posted: 16/10/2006 14:46:12
By: Richard (3233)
Adams, John	 Proctor Mk XII	          Salterello (1602)
Ampleford, Mark Winder CT Mk4 (frp) Loosed Cannon (3655)
Baker, David Morrison Quatermass Andromeda (3259)
Baker, Ken Holt/Turner CT Twice Shy (3467)
Balmbro, Chris Inglis Bad Company Bad Company (3062)
Blake, Simon
Chapman, John Proctor Mk XVIb Zebbedi (2047)
Duffell, Ken Winder CT Mk1 (frp) Harry (3599)
Fletcher, Rupert Holt/Turner CT (mod II) Rag Time (3479)
Fox, James
Fryer, Peter Morrison NSM4 Bluebottle (3458)
Gifford, Frances Winder CT Mk2 (frp) Snorter (3627)
Harris, Andy Adur 7 Omega (1605)
Harris, John J Holt Passing Cloud Passing Cloud (1079)
Winder CT Mk1 (frp) Rabbit (3578)
Harris, Richard Morrison Quatermass Hot Spot (3258)
Harris, Robert Proctor Mk XII Blue Streak (1395)
Harris, Roger J Holt Passing Cloud Flinki Dink (1097)
Houseman, Ollie Smart/Neal Make it So Scantily Clad (3631)
Hunter, Martin
Katz, Steve Proctor Mk XVI My Fair Lady (1849)
Ledger, Chris Proctor Mk XII GBH
Mason, Peter Smart Make it So Smart Cookie (3559)
McLaughlin, Joe Smart Make it So Pocket Rocket (3566)
McLaughlin, Tom Adur 3 Shoestring (1136)
Mourant, Barry J Holt Passing Cloud Fair Kop (1212)
Winder CT Mk 4 (frp) Blue Velvet (3645)
Mourant, Richard Morrison NSM1 Total Eclipse (3233)
P-Jones, David Debenham Broad Scoter Broad Scoter (2686)
Plumtree, Phil Adur 7 Splatter (1631)
Pope, Doug Proctor Mk IXb Lady Hyperion (2037)
Redding, John
Ritchie, Berry J Holt Prelude Crescendo (607)
Simpson, Peter Morrison Smokers Pandemonium (3152)
Stevens, Mike Neal Cloud 2000 Luka (3560)
Driver EZ Roller (frp) Aloha (3635)
Stewart, Scott Holt CT (mod) Tales of the Unexpected
Stokes, Colin Proctor Mk XI Avenger (1004)
Thomas, Jeremy Proctor Mk IXb Melissa M/Zenaglava (1951)
Vines, David Morrison NSM2 (frp)
Wilder, Rob Winder CT Mk 4 Wild Card (3656)

Posted: 16/10/2006 15:02:45
By: For those not too stretched at work...
Great. I'll come down this Sunday. Thanks.

Posted: 16/10/2006 15:07:41
By: Simon Blake
You can count me out, I hate the river.  I do not, however, speak for my sister.

Antony (without an 'h')

Posted: 16/10/2006 16:33:45
By: Antony
So who's going to win then ?
Perhaps somebody should run a book.
Proposed odds ?

Posted: 16/10/2006 16:35:37
By: WP
I'll bet £10.00 Antony sails a race.....

Posted: 16/10/2006 16:50:13
By: :)
Given the myriad of designs and talent racing this series, shouldn't there also be a handicap prize based on the MROA handicapping system.  

It would be very interesting to see the eventual winning design/sailor combination...

Posted: 16/10/2006 16:58:51
By: Interested Observer
I bet £10 Interested Observer gets beaten by the girl

Posted: 16/10/2006 17:07:29
By: WP
:) Bet taken.  You could just pay me tomorrow.  There's no chance.  You are, however in the fortunate position of me not knowing who you are.  

I, however love the river, have sailed on it lots of times (4 Ranelagh, 2 Hampton, 1 Twickenham, am sure there are more and another Ranelagh still to come) this year already and can see it from my office window. Still not sure Snorter will make it to Tammy this year. Possibly after Christmas for the Jan to March series....

Incidentally I did cycle past one Sunday in January this year on the other side of the river, on my way to Woking and made a mental note of how many merlins there were and how lovely it looked. The wind was blowing very hard in the direction of Woking to Putney so I think you all had more fun than me.

Posted: 16/10/2006 17:10:13
By: Frances
Someone always writes while I'm writing.  Just for clarification, my bet is against :) not WP.

Posted: 16/10/2006 17:11:14
By: Frances
Tammy already has a personal handicap prize as well as the main 'on the water' Black Mark Trophy.  Given ever changing river conditions/weather during a race and fluctuations in personal form, isn't design less of a factor with regard to performance?  If you were to apply boat handicaps, the older designs should probably be given a less favourable handicap compared to the more modern wider boats less suited to roll tacking. On another note, it would be better to outlaw hooching and pumping.  Now that would go at least some way to levelling the playing field.

Posted: 16/10/2006 17:32:20
By: Another Old Chestnut
Personal handicaps are too subjective.

You need to assume all Helmsman equal (I would say the fleet is equally spread amongst the designs), the MROA handicapping system will give us a fair idea of which design is the most successful in the conditions.

Rarely do we get a chance for such an experiment....?

Posted: 17/10/2006 11:05:13
By: Interested Observer
But all helmsmen are not equal and you can't make assumptions.  The personal handicap system is there to give the less experienced/able a chance of winning something as well.  Personal handicaps are also based on statistical performance over a previous season, so are far from subjective.

Also, the MROA handicap system doesn't take into account local conditions which, you could argue, favour the older narrow designs over the newer wider ones.

The best way to discover which design is the most successful in the conditions, is to keep with the 'over the water' results as the main prize. Whichever boat wins the series would appear to be the best design for the conditions seen over all of the season.

Posted: 17/10/2006 11:31:31
By: Another Old Chestnut
Interested Observer are you angling for an advantage because you sail an older boat. 
If they also police ooching and pumping you'll hardly move ?

Posted: 17/10/2006 11:32:36
By: WP
A ha!

Posted: 17/10/2006 11:35:07
By: Another Old Chestnut
Nothing to do with betting but are there a limited number of spaces available in the boat park if you enter and don't want to keep towing down to Tamesis to race Jan - March. In which case is it best to register for the winter series early on to avoid disappointment.

Posted: 17/10/2006 11:39:50
By: The Minx3681
No worries Minx - Jan to March 07 series with your boat stored at Tammy is £80.  We'll work out spaces when you come along but it's a pretty spacious boat park so no need to fret.

Always good to register early for the series, as this will enable us to gauge numbers and work out spaces in the boat park.

Posted: 17/10/2006 11:42:17
By: Richard (3233)
Well as I only live in Petersham that would be wonderful. Will consult with my helm and register asap.  


Posted: 17/10/2006 11:47:01
By: The Minx3681
What's the harm in having a handicap trophy as well... not trying to gain an advantage, just trying to level the playing field - the conditions are the same for everybody, that's the point.

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:00:06
By: Interested Observer
But if you're talking about BOAT handicaps, aren't the older narrower boats more suited to the river? If the answer is yes (which a lot of people argue they are), they should receive a less advantageous handicap.  I don't think the MROA handicapping system levels the playing field in this case.  It's based on the age of the boat alone and doesn't take into account the modernisation of older boats - e.g. kevlar sails and carbon spars.

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:11:18
By: Another Old Chestnut
Name one person that argues the older boats are quicker...

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:15:03
By: Interested Observer
As older boats are normally quicker I suggest we reverse the normal Merlin handicaps ie.

895 - 1616 would sail off the fastest handicap ? and so on.

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:20:47
By: WP
...on the river.  Ok, perhaps a few other people would like to enter the debate with their opinion.  Maybe we should look back at previous winners over the last ten years or so and see what boats figured in the final top placings.

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:22:12
By: Another Old Chestnut
Just one....  Anyone?

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:24:37
By: Interested Observer
The other thing to bear in mind is that some weekends weather conditions suit the wider boats, some weekends they suit the older narrow ones.  Nothing is constant which is why handicapping according to boat design is not foolproof.

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:24:53
By: Another Old Chestnut
There is no doubt that in anything other than a good breeze ie. 2 sitting up or out the older designs - Passing cloud, Adur 7, NSM 1 & 2, IXb are quicker to tack and accelerate than a CT, essential in river sailing.

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:26:39
By: WP
I'd argue that in light winds on the river an older design has the advantage. Why else do you find that the experienced river sailors go for narrow boats (ie older designs) with modern rigs and sails where possible? 

It's interesting that some of the Tammy helms who sail open meetings have a newer, wide boat for these and narrow boat for the river. If new boats had the advantage on the river, why would they bother with 2 boats and the associated expense?

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:31:16
By: Chris (3062)
Tammy Black Mark Trophy Winter 2005/2006 final placings...

Pstn Points Boat
1 12 3635 Aloha
2 17 3566 Pocket Rocket
3 23 1605 Omega
4 24 1079 Passing Cloud
5 46 3485 Ashling
6 49 847 Bambusa
7 49 3538 Sorcerer’s Apprentice
8 50 3559 Smart Cookie
9 55 1602 Saltarello
10 63 3645 Blue Velvet
11 75 3152 Pandemonium

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:32:43
By: Another Old Chestnut
I'd say these results reflect who put in the best campaign over the series, rather than an ultimate reflection on boat design. The river does the handicapping for us at Tammy (if you know what I mean!?)

Posted: 17/10/2006 12:39:14
By: joe_mcl
Looks to me like a convincing victory for an improving helmsman in a Driver EZ Roller.... Case closed.

Posted: 17/10/2006 13:47:38
By: Interested Observer
And the rest of the report...

The winter series produced a superb 11 qualifiers who sailed at least nine of the 18 races. Up to 14 Merlins started every Sunday throughout the winter. Mike Stephens and regular crew Andy Douglas dominated the series by competing in 15 races with six first and five second places. This kept the 2004 winner, Joe McLaughlin with new crew Bryn Evans, down in second place. The 2005 winners, John Harris and Margaret Stokes, were pipped for third place by John’s son, Andy and daughter-in-law, Naomi, who just managed to qualify with nine races and a win in the last one despite sailing an old boat on a gusty day.

In theory, everyone has an equal chance of winning the personal handicap trophy. The best way to do well in this is to sail as many races as possible to discard poor results. This was borne out in the results with Mike Stephens winning the double. He was closely followed by the only other boat to complete 15 races, John Adams and Lene Lappartient, who took advantage of the windier conditions in the second half of the series.

Posted: 17/10/2006 14:19:46
By: Alan F
Sailing a Proctor XII

Posted: 17/10/2006 14:54:00
By: Another Old Chestnut
Don't blame the river tis the wind what is fickle.

Posted: 17/10/2006 16:01:08
By: :)
Interesting. AOC's assessment of the likely order at TC is almost the same as in a message I sent that must have got lost in the system. My one exception to AOC's list is Berry Ritchie, he's not sailing 'Bambusa', he has a much more dangerous boat called 'Crescendo' no 607. She's a beautifully refurbished plywood throwback to the Jack Holt 'banana boats' of the 40s and 50s. He'll be sailing her with the very experienced Sue Harris. If I were a betting man I'd have a few quid each way on them.

Posted: 17/10/2006 16:48:06
By: Not a betting man
It wasn't an assessment of the likely order at TC merely a record of last winter's series results.  Interestingly, the result of the Sondown Cup this summer was...
1st Master Blaster 3533 - Richard Whitworth/Ellie Bremer
2nd Crescendo 607 - Richard/Sue Harris
3rd Passing Cloud 1079 - John Harris/Margaret Stokes
4th Omega 1605 - Andrew Harris/Sara Warren
5th Moist 3643 - William Warren/Chris Robinson
6th Krakatoa 2018 - Hywel Bowen-Perkins/Ben Thomas
7th Wild Card - Rob Wilder/Rachel Dobrijevic (nee Cooper)

Posted: 17/10/2006 17:05:39
By: Any Old Chestnut
Meant Master Blaster 3353

Posted: 17/10/2006 17:06:58
By: Any Old Chestnut
Crescendo certainly a fast boat in light airs as is Passing Cloud, but I suspect they will both struggle against some very well sailed NSM 2's , Quatermasses & others across a range of conditions

Posted: 17/10/2006 17:18:27
By: WP
Nevertheless the Sondown Cup results show that they and 'Omega' are very competitive at Tamesis in typical Tammy conditions. I had an Adur 7 once, wish I had her now.

Posted: 17/10/2006 17:34:33
By: Robert Harris
Whatever the airs, it's still the river with more short tacking better suited to the narrow designs and less all-out hiking favouring the wider ones.

The range of conditions could include races with no need for a spinnaker, reaching up and down the river with short dogleg beats thrown in for good measure, short tacking up the side of the river out of a strong stream followed by a run down, fickle/light air days, truer/heavier air days, bends in the river turning a run into a reach, sheltered no-go spots that can kill a race for anybody and just about anything that points to there being no one true optimum hull design suited to this stretch of the Thames.

Posted: 17/10/2006 17:35:43
By: Any Old Chestnut
at UTSC Spade Oak merlin handicap produced top 3 with a 5 second split...stick to what you know...QED However the whole basis of the system is wrong. it should be based on hull date not measured date. It has simply taken entries out of the yearbook. eg an procter xxy built in 1960 should be racing off the same rating as the same hull design in 1959, simply taking arbitary dates from a book by sail numberis not very scientific.Maybe at tammy the powers at be can adopt a more intelligent approach and give it a one will be hurt by it and if it works maybe MORA can adopt it.

Posted: 17/10/2006 18:03:14
By: split

Tamesis - full membership options...
See also

Shouldn't that be "Tamesis Club - full membership options..."


Posted: 17/10/2006 23:00:09
By: Correction
The Sondown Cup was won by a well sailed NSM 2 - QED

Posted: 18/10/2006 08:25:38
By: WP
Now Split is proposing favouring the later 'old' designs alongside their earlier/original sister ships.  Why not give the earlier versions the same handicap as the later models?  After all, a lot of them have been modernised and updated anyway.  The hull shape might be the same, but other factors in the equation aren't – rig, sails, overall set-up etc

What Chris (3062) says above about the types of boats that many sailors at Tammy choose to sail on the river is right on the button – John Harris (Holt Passing Cloud), Colin Stokes (Proctor XI), Phil Plumtree/Andrew Harris (Adur 7), Berry Ritchie (Holt Prelude/Banana), Chris Ledger (Proctor XII). If they are so disadvantaged alongside the more modern designs why do they choose to carry on racing them?

Another interesting comparison from Upper Thames SC this year is Saturday’s and Sunday’s results

Saturday (using MROA handicap system)
1st Splatter 1631 – 3rd/1st
2nd Attack of the Clones 3662 – 2nd/3rd
3rd Djelibeybi 3660 – 1st/5th
4th Omega 1605 – 4th/2nd
5th Krakatoa 2018 – 7th/6th
6th Crescendo 607 – 6th/8th

4 'old' boats in top six

Sunday ('on the water' results)
1st Attack of the Clones 3662 – 3rd/1st/1st
2nd Chuft 2623 – 4th/1st/1st
3rd Luka 3560 – 1st/2nd/7th
4th Artemis 3653 – 8th/2nd/2nd
5th Wild Card 3656 – 2nd/3rd/8th
6th Omega 1605 – 2nd/42ndBFD/3rd

Three 'old' boats in top six (Luka is a Cloud 2000 i.e. update of Passing Cloud design).

Posted: 18/10/2006 10:29:49
By: Yet Another Old Chestnut
I should imagine Luka is substantially lighter than her 'old' brethren....though the relevance of this varies with the wind strength.

(Don't blame the wind - blame the trees!)

Posted: 18/10/2006 11:39:48
By: Mags
Only way to tell would be to weigh them with their sails and spars etc.

Posted: 18/10/2006 11:41:23
By: Yet Another Old Chestnut
To the contrary I bet that Passing Cloud which fully carboned to max mast height and has been completely redecked etc. has an advantage over Luka.

Posted: 18/10/2006 13:18:01
By: WP
The words Pandora and box spring to mind.

Posted: 18/10/2006 13:55:49
By: Yet Another Old Chestnut
I guess you are sayng then, that, if you have an old boat sailing off scratch, all that's left is hope when the box is opened!!?

Posted: 18/10/2006 14:28:27
By: Garry R
No, just that the case is far from closed! : )

Posted: 18/10/2006 14:32:19
By: Yet Another Old Chestnut
Why do they sail them - for the fun (and the challenge), there's no edge.... 

Still waiting for you to name someone who actually thinks an old boat is faster

Posted: 18/10/2006 16:24:12
By: IO
It's not for me to name someone who thinks an old boat is faster.  Besides, that's not what I was saying.  They're neither faster or slower but both, depending on the conditions of the day and the way they're set up, modified/enhanced and, on the day, sailed.

As to other people's opinions on this, why don't you read some of the comments above - WP, Chris (3062), Alan F, joe_mcl, Not a betting man, Robert Harris.

In my opinion, the concept of boat/hull handicapping is compromised as soon as you throw helms/crews/rigging/sails/set-up/conditions of day into the equation.

Posted: 18/10/2006 17:00:43

Posted: 18/10/2006 17:13:31
By: IO
Is that the full extent of your debating skills?

Posted: 18/10/2006 17:39:34
Just to add my piece to the pie.
My feeling is that in general the older boats are the faster boats to have on the river. The reason for this is simply a law of averages. Wide newer boats are only able to perform in wind conditions above a force 3 and if the wind is in such a direction or the course is set in such away that you are mostly reaching. The conditions normally average out in favour of the narrow boats on a Sunday morning at Tamesis Club.
The older boats, if sailed correctly, have the ability to tack quickly and have a reduced wetted surface area during either a roll tack or roll gybe. On top of this they normally have a taller rig optimised for river sailing and foils designed for turning a lot! The wider boats must make do with the average rigs and foils that are designed to perform in every condition.
I speak from experience trying to race a narrow merlin at the student nationals in Weymouth, nightmare! And racing Pat Blake this year at the River Championships. He had Smart Tart and I was in Luka. In the light shifty conditions when lots of tacking was required I would pull ahead, when the wind settled and provided a reaching course he simply stormed away. (see the results for which conditions prevailed!)
My recommendation for sailing at Tamesis is an old narrow wooden boat with a tall metal mast to help with the light wind roll tacks. This will perform in the majority of conditions found here. You may note that John Harris has a carbon stick, this is to keep overall weight down, but I think it is still maximum hight.
All this said I have now sold Luka and will be sailing the very wide 3631 but thats only because I wanted to compete on the circuit more and can't afford owning two boats being a student!

Posted: 18/10/2006 19:17:59
By: Ollie
Just read the post in more detail and just wanted to add something on the personal handicaps/boat handicaps topic. Personal handicaps are not subjective as they are set from previous performance and the real reason is to allow sailors who don't normally win have a chance to. It also gives the really good guys another target, to win on handicap as well as on the water.
Boat handicaps on the river a worthless as many have commented. Luka is not lighter than Passing Cloud as someone mentioned and would also ruin a handicap formed on age. The only way I can see you could handicap boats is to calculate the wetted surface area of each boat and take the average conditions of the day to formulate the handicap for that race. But who can be bothered. An on the water winner and personal handicap, which represents the best improver from last season/a good sailor who has excelled, is all that is needed in my opinion. To be honest most overall results have been dominated by those who put the effort in to turn up the most, which again I think is correct. Rewarding the dedicated.

Posted: 18/10/2006 19:32:20
By: Ollie
.....and who can argue with that!

Posted: 19/10/2006 00:12:10
By: corner cutter
Agree 100% with Interested Observer.  I sail my old heavy monster with the 7kg lead tipped centreboard for fun and for the satisfaction of having rescued a boat which (with Nov 5th coming up) might have ended up on a bonfire.  Bit of history too.  Now looking forward to sailing 252 (a Rocket) next year, which is a real tubby looking beast originally designed for sea sailing.

Posted: 19/10/2006 08:37:50
By: Garry R
Oh - and at Hampton Open in the blow we were 15th out of about 30 boats as much as anything because with all the weight we managed to stay upright (plus, of course due to the extreme skill of our webmaster Mags) and with a broken diamond wire and a split in the wooden mast!!!

Posted: 19/10/2006 08:45:12
By: Garry R
I love this thread because it's all about boats I sailed in and against years ago. 

Jack Holt built 'Passing Cloud' for my Dad Harry Harris 46 years ago. He named her after his favourite cigarettes, the posh Wills Passing Clouds that were oval and came in a pink pack. She's had quite a chequered career having been sailed at one time or other by all members of the Harris family including my cousin Richard Gaunt. Her bottom was painted with graphite when that was fashionable. With the work John's done on her and her max. height carbon rig she having the time of her life.

Posted: 19/10/2006 09:05:28
By: Robert Harris
I feel honour-bound to add that my only real skill at Hampton that day was bailing very very fast.

Posted: 19/10/2006 09:25:21
By: Mags
My weapon of choice for the river is a Quatermass. Only 2 ever built 3258 & 3259. Designed by PM as a NSM 2 derivative that would be faster inland on restricted waters. It is more rockered with a lower wetted area than a 2, the mast and center board are also positioned slightly further forward. 
I sailed 3259 for many years at Tammy with much sucess and also a top 5 at Salcombe Week. I have recently bought 3258 just to sail on the river, expecting her to be quick in most conditions.

Posted: 19/10/2006 09:45:50
By: RH
Garry, just wanted to say that I think your boat (Secret Water 111) is a very different beast compared with ones like Omega, Splatter, Passing Cloud, GBH, Crescendo etc all of which have some combination of carbon spars and kevlar sails.  Secret Water is a vintage boat in its true meaning and is authentic.  The sort of boats IO is refering to are less so.

The MROA/boat handicapping system is certainly fair with regard to your boat and that is why you race it at the vintage events. Perhaps IO should enter for these events as well using the boat handicap system.

Posted: 19/10/2006 09:48:38
Stand corrected - GBH sails with metal spars and dacron sails just has a very skilled helm in command.

Posted: 19/10/2006 09:50:30
I have raced Passing Cloud, Splatter, Andromeda, Crescendo, Elusive, Total Eclipse and various CT's at Tammy. 
I'd pick Passing Cloud or Crescendo in very light airs, and Andromeda in most other conditions and a CT in a blow (for the extra down wind performance.)

Posted: 19/10/2006 11:11:42
By: RH
BUT - AO Chestmut the Merlin Vintage events in my experience don't use handicaps.  CVRDA do and will have the boats rated for originality not just age - and not just the Merlins but all the old boats.  We still don't do very well though!! But my goodness it's fun looking up at that wooden mast wondering if my glueing is going to hold out!!!!

Posted: 19/10/2006 11:24:47
By: Garry R
Passing Cloud has always been immaculately sailed as well, which has I'm sure helped her reputation. I sailed her once at "swap boats" team race and my very agile crew and I were amazed at how quickly she tacked and her short turning circle as he said at the time "a sort of sea going taxi that would turn on a sixpence whatever that may be"!

Posted: 19/10/2006 11:29:30
By: Ancient Geek
Garry, your're right the Merlin vintage events don't use boat handicaps but they are more equal as they're limited to boats of an older vintage.  Whether the MROA vintage wing adopts the CVRDA handicapping system is another matter.

Posted: 19/10/2006 12:33:55
As I do the Merlin results at Tamesis I thought it about time I added my 2p worth.

If Interested Observer would like to provide a trophy and work out another set of results for boat handicaps then that would be fine and can be done retrospectively. I don't think it would encourage more old boats though, just more prizes for the top sailors with old boats.

Otherwise, I think Ollie has similar opinions to me. We could put the old boat handicaps in for a force 3 and above and reverse them for below force 3.....

The best way to have a chance at winning the series is to compete in all the races - roughly 20 races with 10 to count - and you will then be able to discard races where your boat was disadvantaged. This was the main reason the modern boats were 1st and 2nd last winter as the 3rd and 4th vintage boats only did just enough to qualify. Note that only 1 boat change is allowed during the series to prevent switching boats according to conditions.

The comment on masts was interesting - heavy mast better for roll tacking and less likely to spill that rare gust of wind? Our 'new' boat has a stiff proctor carbon mast so could be an ideal combination of lightness and stiffness on the river?

Incidently, when between boats upgrading to a newer CT this summer we borrowed a 9b 2037 (from Doug Pope who will be sailing her in the winter series) with metal rig and, if anything, had better results.

Posted: 19/10/2006 14:04:56
By: Brian
I for one agree with Brian and have heard quite enough waffle from AOC

Posted: 19/10/2006 14:40:25
By: IO
So IO, are you going to buy the new trophy and work out all the handicaps/results etc?  If so, wonderful - another prize (albeit a default one) for everyone to compete for.  If not, why not just get out on the water a bit more within the current racing framework and see if you can win the real prize.

Posted: 19/10/2006 15:26:40
Get her...

Posted: 19/10/2006 15:40:40
By: Last Word
Who IO ?

Can't see him making many appearances.......too scared to face up to the competition

Posted: 19/10/2006 17:09:09
By: WP
agree with brian, we upgraded from a turner nsm2 (3230) to a turner CT (3486) and seem to have gone backwards! A well sailed old boat will always beat a badly sailed new one.

Posted: 19/10/2006 18:57:41
By: floppy toppy
Si, this looks like it might be a bargain.  looks in good nick, although sails are probably buggered.  Chippendale Mk8

Posted: 19/10/2006 20:54:57
By: deepy
Strange boat the MK VIII. I crewed Robin Judah in his MK VIII 'Mint Julep' 599 in the Conquerer's Pint at Rye in the 50s. Robin had a keel stepped mast that went through a slot in a rotating disk in in the back of the foredeck. I think the theory was to have a mast that could rotate and bend at the same time. Anyway we didn't do very well and I wasn't impressed with the MK VIII.

Posted: 19/10/2006 23:09:14
By: Robert Harris
I've just been introduced to the sport of sailing and will be around at Tamesis Club looking for helmsmen who need crew.

If anyone feels the need to break in a new starter drop me an email.


Posted: 08/11/2006 12:51:32
By: Mark Caswell


To Reply, please join/renew membership.

Owners Association

Developed & Supported by YorkSoft Ltd


Merlin Rocket Owners Association