We may have some older Merlin Rockets coming to our open meeting to race in the open handicap fleet. Could someone tell me if the Handicaps listed in the class rules are applicable in this type of fleet. 
Cheers

Neil

It would be fairer on the older boats if you used the PY adjustments the MROA recommends. The Chichester Snowflake is a good example of a handicap series that does this.

Thanks Mags. I should have been clearer with my original question. Can the MROA PY adjustments be used when Merlin Rockets sail against lasers, Albacores etc in an open meeting. We used these handicaps last year in our open meeting and the Albacores have boycoted the event because we used these handicaps. cheers Neil

That's a bit rich when the Albacore has changed significantly over the years, from hull shape to raking rig and no change to their PY!!

Utlimately it is down to the club to publish in the sailing instruction what handicap systems or varaiation they intend to use.

Interesting that the Albacore PY hasn't changed it means either
1. the modification don't make the boat go faster
2. the skill of the helms have dimmished relative to other classes
3. insufficient Albacores sail in events or clubs that make handicap data returns to the RYA

The Snowflake series I referred to is a mixed class event, and we believe the values are only as unfair as far as the PY system is unfair in general!

The albacore hasnt actually changed that much at all, hul shapes on vary slighty and a well sailed Old Albacore is just as quick as the latest designs, i dont have adjustable rigging on my alb and it is just as fast as my brothers who does have it.  The albacore is also a class which has declined in numbers so less returns by clubs mean that handicaps dont change.  When i owned my merlin my club wouldnt let me change my handicap, but they have since let some of the other merlin sailors sail off an adjusted handicap.  If everyone sails on unchanged py numbers then it should be fair, IF all our clubs handed in returns then the handicaps would be changed.

Also, it depend on the sailing venue, if the old Merlins were given an advantage at HAmpton or Tammy or Minima over the new, the class designs would go backwards quickly.

Absolutely right alan, It depends on where you sail.  I would like to point out that the albacore hasnt changed shape in over 30 years.  Even the latest Speed sails FRP albs are based on the old "woof" design.

I have only once been refused the recomended adjusted handicap at an open event in Scotland and that was because a Moth sailor complained. Can you let me know what the decision is as I am coming with either my boat (plus 10) or crewing for Hamish in his (plus 20). There is clearly a huge disadvantage if we have to sail off the same as a new carbonised one string wonder/Winder (delete as appropriate) The Moth sailor was miffed cause we were beating him in his new boat and he didnt like it.

Russ, I hate to disagree but in the late seventies and early eighties that Albacore changed its bow and rocker with the run aft flattened. It is unlikely that a well sailed 2000 number will be competitive with a well sailed  Kingsfield (6800) or Woof (6600) designs. I grew up watching this change at Herne Bay where at the time there was a competitive national level fleet. Also the change to the raking rig is likely to make a reasonably significant difference. If nothing else it allows much lighter crews to compete and the boat being less of a handful in a stronger breeze. 

My opinions are based upon watching Albacores dominate Handicap events in the eighties/nineties around kent and also on converstions with one of my good friends who has been championship winning crew on at least two occassion in the last 10 years and second as a helm.

I am not saying that the Albacore has a better handicap than the Merlin (almost certianly the modern Merlin is v well placed at 1021) but against classes such as the laser on open water, it does seem quite favourable.

Jon, it depends on how you define a modern design , i would say that a Mid 70's woof is now an old boat design!  And infact a 1967 JD young boat is Just as quick as any alb on flat waters in a light breeze.  If albacores dominate handicap events then im affraid EVERYONES club must hand in returns to the RYA and they will change the handicap.  I think that they would need to look at some other classes first ie. Laser 2000, Phantom (im an ex Phantom sailor)May i also point out that a laser as im sure you will know is actually a hard boat to sail WELL.  a well sailed laser is very hard to beat, i'm sure we have all seen cases of this.

PS JD young designs started 1967

Russ, I don't disagree with your points about many modern designs such as the Laser 2000 which I am told has quite a ridiculous handicap. My main point about the Albacore was that it's sailors benefited for many years from the PY system as Albacore clubs (including Herne Bay) did not make returns to the RYA. In my knowledge the Alb handicap has not changed since before the Laser's arrival (even when the new py's arrived in the nineties the h/p was still just around 10 points quicker than the Laser equivilant to the old 1 point). 

I just find it strange that the Albacore sailors should now be complaining about the RYA recognised Merlin handicap adjustment system as the Merlin handicap has been regularly amended downwards (abeit a bit too slowly) to allow for changes in class design and rigs. The modified system is to allow pre Canterbury Tales boat to still compete in handicap races. 

The Albacore sailors I know all seem to agree that the Alb handicap in a updated 1980's Kingsfield (and some earlier ones) is still favourable. I discussed this with some of them yesterday evening.

john, Kingsfields are by no means the quickest albacore hull shape, the reason for the mrlin handicap change is the fact that it is a development class, and the albacore is a one design.  The albacoe may have a slightly favourable handicap, but it is negligable to be honest.

I should point out that when we used the handicaps in the regatta last year an Albacore won. I should also clarify that it is the regular Albacore visitors who will boycott the regatta and not the Albacore association. I wouldn’t like to cause problems with them.

I was hoping for a yes or a no on weather we could legitimately use them . I think it is a yes?

cheers

Neil

Yes, they are approved by the RYA!!

Neil, I tend to find that if you wave the Merlin Handbook under the Race officers nose the handicaps are permitted. Certianly I will be pushing for the handicaps to be used at the event at Holy Loch and as Maggs says these are RYA approved.

I have told the club that it is OK to use them, so they will be used this weekend.
thanks for the feed back everyone

If you want a boat to take advantage of the handicap system get a YW dayboat - on restricted water those barges with a handicap of 1200 are just pothunters and there aren't enough RYA returns done on them to bring in a change.

I'm afraid I represent the enemy. I'm the owner of an older Albacore ('63 Fairey hull)and I regularly compete in the Thames Sailing Club handicaps against older Merlins. At our club the Merlins use 1024 whilst I use the standard 1066 PY. I can give them a run for their money providing they don't get spinnakers out and this is where the whole handicap system becomes a bit arbitrary between a boat that is rated with the use of a spinnaker and one without. 

I'm interested to know how those in the classic Merlin fleet feel about the CVRDA ratings for pre-65 boats of 95 for the Albacore and 91 for the Merlin. What's interesting is that this is only very fractionally different from the current standard PYs.

Since Jon's Albacore won the first race at Clywedog and was 6th overall off that 95 you can't complain. That beat even Merlin 36 and 111 also sailing off 95 and 507 off 92 as well as the rest of us on 91.
CVRDA handicaps are based on the 1965 values but are individually adjusted for each boat if there are appropriate factors - wooden masts and cotton sails are advantageous, carbon masts and mylar sails get penalised. The aim is a level playing field and enjoyable sailing.

The CVRDA uses a graded system of pys for age of boat. A Classic albacore is 95 and an 'old' one is 94 ( Classic= pre 1965 and 'Old'= post 1965 but more than 25years old)
The three categories of merlins are 'old'= py 88, 'Classic'=py 91 and vintage =py 95, ( where vintage means a ribbed and rivetted construction ie pre 1953approx.) So  only a classic albi = a vintage merlin in the PYs.
Then there are some adjustments made for state of tune/modernization. So using original wooden mast and cotton sails will be helped and the same boat with carbon and kevlar would be hammered a little bit. This isn't done to discourage modernization rather than to encourage the preservation of vintage boats that can be kept in completely original condition where possible. After all the whole point of the CVRDA is about vintage boats and to make it worth while restoring and using them so in a sense the older the better. It also encourages people to dust off an old boat that has been forgotten about for many many years and to have fun sailer her again without thinking it won't be worth bothering with unless I  get new sails etc. At our events a handicap committee will go through all the pys and modify them if they think fit.
All our PYs are based on the numbers published in 1965. this is our starting point - thus the old system. It is interesting to see that some  boats in 1965 have swapped round when it comes to compairing pys in todays tables. 
Although our racing is taken (fairly) seriously (well be some anyway!) enjoyment in sailing and keeping elderly dinghies going is the key. Any handicapping can'y be 100percent fair, 100percent of the time,in 100percent of conditions, which is another reason why we are still refining things anyway and are happy to change numbers accordingly.

What PY would a clinker hulled gaff rigged boat circa 1905 be?  It's about 12/13 feet long and has cotton sails.  Friend's father did it up a few years ago, and friend is looking to get it on the water.

Pleaase do bring it to Shearwater (wiltshire) if you possibly can on September 23, 24th would love to see her. I'll paste your info on the CVRDA forum and see what the handicap committee sugest. I'm sure you will find it favourable and wel worth joining in. Details on www.cvrda.org

Thanks Chris, but I'll be at Inlands that weekend.  I know my friend, the owner, has a trailer for it.  Think it's in Derbyshire somewhere but I'll pass the info onto him today and see what he thinks.  He said last night he'd relocate it to Tamesis as he lives in London.  Tammy used to race sailing gigs and gaff rigs etc in early 20th century.

Just catching up on this one with a reply to Russ on The club stance on handicaps. There have been no changes to any dinghy handicaps no matter what. The Albacores would start infighting over their minor hull changes and would open up a whole can of worms on the handicapping front, even though it states in the PY system that consideration could be given to old Merlins and National 12s due to their development class nature. Therefore I'm resigned to sitting at the back of the competition and just enjoying my sailing until I can be bothered to look for something competitive.

Bryan, don’t look at anything else mate I loved my Merlin and yours is a beautiful example.  There shouldn’t be any arguments in the alb fleet at our club because other then Rob P we all have the same hull shape.  The argument about your Merlin when John had it was that because it had a modern deck stepped raking rig it should sail off the modern handicap.  We both know that isn’t fair, one of the reasons I sold my boat was that they wouldn’t entertain a handicap drop for my boat either meaning it was off pace slightly.  I showed Savo and the other racing committee members the Official MR Handicap changes but they didn’t want to know, the truth is that if we did change your handicap you probably wouldn’t beat Pete but it would mean fairer and more enjoyable racing.  In an albacore/ solo dominated world.

I am joining the committee this year and if you wanted to bring it up at the meeting I would fight your corner