I am looking to buy a used boat to make a start in the class. Basically looking for a boat that is gonna be on the pace and is as tweakable as the new boat which I hope to replace it with in the next few years.

Budget is £2-4k. I would prefer a wooden boat & will be racing at a coastal venue.

What should I go for and what should I be looking at when I go visiting boats?

As you would like a wooden boat, that limits it a bit, on the 2nd hand list look at the Chipstow or Ron Hall (boatcraft) boats both have good names.There are the occassional Rowsell machines and early jon Turners.
Basically you need a Canterbury Tales or Derivative, of which there are quite a few within your price range.
Go for one with Carbon Spars (nearly all these days) Chipstow spars are the leaders at the moment. Sails just about anyones as long as they match the mast characteristics.
Good Luck

You get what you pay for, so go to the top end of your budget 3491 and 3508 on the for sale list seem up to the required spec to get you going.

There are 3 boats with a track record, though all are over 10 years old and will need careful inspection.  3492 Empty Pockets was a slight modification of the CT designed to carry weight better, which it may do & it was competitive in it's day.  3491 Coyote is one of the desirable Turner glass hull/wood deck boats that have lasted well and are exactly the same shape as the early glass Canterbury Tales from Winders, also Heavy Artillery 3482 was again a competitive boat in its day, but sounds as though recent maintenance has not been up to scratch, the price reflects this and if you can do a bit of work yourself may well be a bargain - I bet you could negotiate

Thanks guys for the advise. 
3515 appears good value for its spec. Any knowledge of this one?

3515 has been on the For Sale list for a while albeit it is priced right given the kit supplied i.e.carbon rig.

The builder 'Woodward' i know little about but from what I have seen she looks a pretty boat. I have at home some pictures of her at the Hayling Champs last year and i believe if you click on the inlands video link on this website you will catch a glimpse of her there!

In terms of condition not too sure. Personally if it were me I would contact the owner, and if he/she is able get them to email some digi pics to you, save you then having to travel donkeys only to find out it's not quite your bag of bits so to speak.

I also have a couple of pictures of 3492 Empty Pockets. Taken about 2 years ago.

If you want a copy of both then drop me an email.

Again a good boat owned and built for Nick Aubrey back in about 91. Competative in it's time but comes with tin rig only, so maybe slightly over priced. 

The only difference with Empty pockets is she is thwartless i.e. very similar set up to 3453 Storm Cloud. 

Both of these boats are wood therefore when viewing I would pay extra attention to the wood condition and whether it has been lovingly looked after!

Good luck

I would love to have a thwartless boat.  Thwarts are a big fat pain.

I would love to have a thwarted boat. Having nowhere to sit is a right pain.

All, I've tried very hard not to respond to this as I have an interest in that my boat is on the board and in the price range. However, I would advise our friend to ge the owners to send him some quality photo's before settting out. Also, some boats can have suffered a bit of "middle-aged spread", it's quite a challenge to get a heavy boat down to weight. I hope that's helpful and unbiased!

3482 and 3515 are still going strong in the Midlands.  Both seem in OK condition.  Jim Woodward is a Circuit sponsor and has a strong and successful history of building and repair of wooden boats.  The boat is only less expensive because Jim does not have the branded name.  

There are a fair number of boats at Shustoke looking for active homes but not advertised.  You might approach the Club for any inside info?

Some good advise, thanks guys.

So here's the question...
Are you saying that these 10-15 yr old Canterbury Tales, provided they down to weight and have carbon rigs and new sails, are as quick as a new boat?
If so, I'm curious to know why I haven't noticed many 34** or early 35** boats high up in any open or national results in the last few years?
If they're not as quick, what are the factors which make the newer boats stand out? Stiffness, weight distribution, small tweaks to the hull shape, fairing?

I think one of the main factors here is cost, a plastic boat is probbaly 3 or 4 grand chaper than a wooden one, the top guys change boats more often too. I haven't found any difference between the two racing in the mid-fleet against the helms of my ability, maybe there are small differnece only the top helms would notice. There have been some very quick wodden boats that are still up the front, ask Dan Alsop for example.

you must take into account, the fact is some if not all the top boats have top helms & crews and the overall package delivers the performance....

I wonder has hit the nail on the head!

Boat design/weight/age does play a major part in performance, although ability plays a bigger part!

I have noticed over the years people buying off the 2nd hand list boats previuosly owned by top Merlin helms with the idea they, I am convinced, believe they will go faster ....WRONG! Some of the top helms have been sailing Merlins for 30,40 and 50+ years (Alan Warren ex Star olympian, Phil King, Dan Alsop, Pat Blake to name a few). Whilst they all have top boats they sure as hell know their onions when it comes to making a boat go fast. The 34..,35.. boats listed will be competitive, but if you have not sailed a merlin before please dont be under any illusion you will turn up at a Silver Tiller meeting or Nationals , step in and thrash the ass off the phil King's, Dan alsop's, Mike Calvert's, Al Warren's, Tom Stewart's. Maybe oneday...!!

That aside the Merlin class racing is extremely close, fun and exciting and whatever boat you choose you will have a brilliant time.

Enjoy


ps. I will send those pics to you this evening.

There are boats however that haven't gone that quickly, even in the hands of some of the people mentioned above...  Might be the boat, might be other variables at the same time, but some boats have track records and others don't.  if you're going to pay top whack, make sure it's worth it!  With the plastic boats it is much less of an issue as they have far fewer places where differences can get built in.

Richard & 'i wonder are right'. I think Steve Cockerel won the best new commer in 2005 Nationals, in a a nearly new boat, and managed 15th overall, which shows the strength and depth of the competition.

If, like us, you spend the time and effort travelling around the Silver Tiller, Salcombe, Nationals then the costs of a nearly new boat starts to become a small part of the overall hobby cost. What ever the age of a Merlin, the depreciation is about £1,000 a year till it hits around £1,500 when it then really depends on condition or what has been added, after all a new full set of sails is around that price. The cost of capital is a factor, but we have decided that we would rather sail newer boats and blame (try and improve) our lack of experience and skills rather than balme our equipment.

However, it is still hard getting used to being pleased with say 24th out of 40 rather than 2nd 3rd or winning a club race.

Get a 2-3 grand boat, get your systems, rig and foils perfect (like really, really minutely perfect) get some good sails, get your kite gybes down to 4 second and be able to drop within 2 boat lengths of the mark.  Learn how to tack well and win starts every time.

Then take a look at your results and decide if you need to spend another 10 grand to win stuff.......  I don't reckon you will...............

Alan F - I am thinking of balmeing my equipment or maybe at my age it should be embalm!!!!!!!!!!

WOFTAM - I would willingly spend the extra cash if it meant I could continue with my sorry gybing and 2nd row starts! A boat with that sort of pace would be anything but a W.O.F.T.A.M!
Good point though.

Sound thoughts Alan F.
This has been a subject for the Committee over a number of years and hence moves to double weekends etc.  In fact, fuel and accomodation becomes a significant feature of the operating costs for lower value boats.  

Except for the under three year boats where a 20% depreciation looks likely, you can rely on a 15% depreciation for the next umpteen years then down to 10% depending on condition.  

There are other fixed costs too, such as Club membership, storage costs etc.

With fuel cost rising, actually getting to the event becomes a significant outlay.  Maybe £20 just in fuel, probably £75 in real costs.

The budget can be complex, but I have a toy spreadsheet if anybody is interested.

It's a little like when people ask where you went on holiday, you reply Salcombe, Devon and they look a little sorry for you as though you can't afford a 'proper' holiday...  Little do they know that you could probably have 3 weeks on the costa del wherever for the same dosh...  At least that's my experience, and worth every penny I must say!

And I and quite a few others can recall when a Silver-Tiller Weekend cost a fiver! It was only £1 to fill the car up.

As it costs me £50 to fill the car up, and the Banbury/Midland weekend used a full tank = a £5 ST weekend would cost £250 in todays money.

Petrol, Entry fees (2), Travel Lodge, food & drink for Banbury/Midland cost approx £140 (for one Fuller team).   

So conclusion, it is lot cheaper relatively today than in the good old days. Think on.

The wives moan more these days though....

it just means we now get ripped off for fuel !!

Combine the transport and accommodation costs and tow with a camper.
Just remember you're towing when you start doing 80mph on the motorway!

Careful when coming up the M6, Lancashire, Cumbria and the Scots are pretty hot on speed.

Dalgety Bay is well worth the visit, scenery is wonderful.