Helm just about to change the jib sheets .... it could all go horribly wrong!

From pics etc, it looks like either of the following are the main options - 

16plait matt 8mm
Excel lite 8mm
Excel lite 6mm
Excel marstrom 16plait 8mm
Excel marstrom 16plait 6mm

It would be good to get one set to suit all conditions.  Does anyone have any thoughts or views on what works best or what is standard issues at winders etc?

wadoyuthink?

Cheers
Mark

Tapered is the answer - 6mm where the hands hold then down to 3-4mm where they tie to the sail.  The taper starts about 150mm from where the sheet cleats, so that when beating it cleats on the fat bit, and the thin bit passes from the sail, through the block in the bottom of the boat and nearly up to the deck.

GGGGGGGGGG

PS - you might want some gloves for your birthday...

GGGGGGGGGGGGG

Be careful .....I bought some tapered sheets for a standard Winder from P & B and they will not stay in the cleat for more than a few seconds.The rope is to shiney and just slips out. Too lazy to send back so consigned to the cupboard.

Mark, fancy bringing your fancy sheets to Banbury with you?

Jon

d'oh not mark....


Well whoever you are.....

Isn't it Excel Pro you want for tapered sheets?

If they won't stay in the cleat it's probably because you haven't used them enough to get the silicone coating off.  A nightmare I know.  The thing to do is put them in the washing mashine for a rinse.  The stuff should come of and then they should work just fine!

If they are too shiny, try putting them in the washing machine - that should sort them out.

If I didn't go for tapered, what would I go for?  6mm sounds a little harsh!!

As a life-long sceptic I have recently seen the light on jib-sheets and the answer is definitely tapered if you have a puller as it makes tacking a LOT easier.  Also not to have an end in the boat, i.e. led across from one jib-cleat to the other and the 2 ends tied (securely!!!) onto the jib tack.  6mm is thick enough, really!  After all that's what you have on the spinny and there's a lot more sheet load on that & you don't leave it cleated most of the time.

If they aren't cleating you need better quality cleats.

I had the same problem, solved by replacing the rubbish Holt alanite cleats with a nice pair of Harken ones.

Much easioer to uncleat and play the sail too!!

Who sells tapered sheets? I've never seen them advertised anywhere!
Better still, has anyone seen a link detailing how to make them yourself?

As my 84 year old father, who has just discovered the internet expressed it, 'I've got this extraordinary thing called 'The Google' on my computer .....'

Tha answer is P&B do tapered spinnaker and jib sheets and you can pay lots and lots if you want to. I got the cheaper ones, but then I'm living in Scotland.

They are easy enough to make, but cheap enough to buy from people like P&B, see link.

Or you can try www.sail-sport.com, will do whatever length you want, good service & very reasonable

Mags,

If you troll along to Guildford Marine they sell the stuff off the reel; it comes with the 'working core' inside the softer outer, and you just cut off as much outer as you need and whip and sew the frayed end to form the taper.

I have used dyneema as in the centre of the picture on p56 of the P&B catalogue, but the core, although immensly strong, is quite soft and loosely bound, and I found any knots I tied in in were all but impossible to undo - a bit like untying cotton wool, if you have ever tried!

Well worth the few minutes it takes to whip the loose ends.  Bit of a tip here.. When do you the whipping, I have found that it is more durable if after five turns, you take stitch through the core and then resume whipping for another five and then stitch again, etc.  When the rope flexes round sheaves these stitches through prevents the whipping working loose.

GGGGGGGG

If you sheets are popping out of the cleat, it may be that the cleat needs raising 2 or 3 mm.  A thin piece of plastic, such as Holt blocks are sold attached to, is good, or a thin piece of tufnol.

This is called race tuning!  Come to the training weekend for more hard earned nuggets of knowledge...

GGGGGGGGGG

Cheers big G!

Cheers for the plug Mr Mills!!!
Mark I think you've identified the main sheets worth using.
Excel Lite is top of the range with the dyneema core already in the centre. The cover is very thick though so it takes a bit of whipping so it's all nice and smooth.
Excel Marstron is the same cover as above but with a polyprop core. Not realy taperable effectively. Remember that it is the core of the rope that takes the load and as the core of Marstron isn't plaited it's difficult to really effectively attach anything to it.
16 plait matt. Same problem as Marstron, the core is Polyprop BUT! Because the core is larger ( the cover is thinner) you can remove it completely and replace it with 4mm excel racing (dyneema inside a cover).
I did try rooster polilite but it was just too stretchy for my liking. Top rope in it's place but not for Merlin jib sheets. You're just too far away from the cleat...

Thanks for all comments but I have already run the "popping out" sheets through the washing machine twice to no avail. 
The cleats are virtually brand new Harkens which didn't slip with the previous tapered sheets (which i ruined on another boat).
So in the cupboard they stay !!

Another canb jamb tweek is to file some horizontal grooves across the face of the jaws works well.
On the tapered sheet thingy a well known keelboat builder a few years back thought it clever to have all the sheet thin except the bit you used going to windward but then keelboats don't do a lot of reaching!

Or another set of springs in the cleat.  I have 3 sets in my spinnaker halyard cleat, but that's really so it doesn't recleat on the drop...

How jolly clever! My spinnaker halyard cleat always re-cleats on the drop if you so much as pause the take-down for a split-second. As much as it pains me, I was considering swapping it(a small Harken alloy) for a H*lt piece of ****, just 'cos they don't cleat as freely. Don't think my boat would ever forgive me though.
Can you just load more springs in then?

Hi Chris, can you buy just the springs or do you have to purchase a new Harken Cam Cleat whole and take the spring out and fit into the other.

Cheers in advance

ed

I'm not entirely sure about purchasing springs as my helm has the inside line on that, but I think you probably can because I don't think the cleat's are designed to be disposable if the the springs wear.

Interestingly our cleats are Harken as well, and I think the problem arises because they are too good at sucking the rope in!  I think it's because the edges are rounded to facilitate cleating.  We've also had a few issues with our rig forward/backward cleats auto jamming.  The Holt cleats don't have the rounded edges so it doesn't appear to be an issue.

you should try the new spinlocks, Bruce put some on his jib sheets and they work a treat!!! looks alittle out though as he has the modern cleats and this vintage boat. the cleating tension is adjustable which makes it great for the different wind strengths. if you guys are in Banbury or Midlands come over and give them a go!

are these really used on a Jib sheet ? how would you "play" the sheet on a gusty beat, or on a reach ?

i believe they are used more for spin halyards and self tacking jibs but he has not had a problem with them, ill ask him when he comes home if there are any pros/cons when using them.

I have another question on Jib Sheets - I already have tapered sheets and currently take them off the boat each time to attach them to the jib cringle, then re-rig them for sailing.

Does everyone do this, or is there a way of having some kind of release clip or string to attach the sheet to the jib to save de-rigging each time. 

Of course it would need to avoid fouling the puller, which rules out a spinaker quick release clip for example.

Thanks in advance

ed

North Sails sell such a thing we use it on a largish genoa but it looks small enough for a MR Jib, its very neat and so far fingers crossed despite a flogging test hasn't let go in action.

Thanks AG - could you give a little more detail, do you think that the major chandellers would sell this or is it only available from North direct ?

cheers

ed

Direct from North Sails only je regret. Try web site.

Having said that I can't find it on the North Web Site, by co-incidence I'll be with a few North guys over the upcoming w-ens (one of them is a crew of mine!) I'll ask (They gave me the one I use.) and post on the forum on Tuesday if that helps. (we used to use a "wee bitty string" as Gary might put it! (Binder twine actually!) Threading and unthreading forsail sheets is as you say balls-aching.

If you have your jib sheets such that the loose ends are to be attached to the tack, then the thing to do is join them togethe with a half-hitch on the bight (I think).  i.e. the knot where you wrap the ends around your fingers and then make a half hitch together - you all know what I mean!

Then, pass that through the jib tack hole when you're rigging the boat, and tie another half hitch around the sheets.  Very difficult to explain, and I don't have any photos.  It doesn't come loos, weighs nothing and is free.  Well, provided you've got jib sheets that is...

I just called North, and they do not retail such a device. They suggested using a short length of spectra with an open splice on one end and a ball on the other. attach this to the middle of the jib sheet using a clove hitch or some similar knott, and then thread the open splice through the jib tack, over the ball, close up the splice and you are set to go.

Alternatively, Deepy's suggestion sounds better, but my jib sheets are the other way round, and they are tapered to fit the boat, so if I wanted to go that route I would need new sheets and start again.

ed

Yes Deepy, but bulky and heavy, another weeze is to put a bridle between the two sheets (Sewn into the sheets.) made of light line so that it really does prevent wrapping and I'll send a sketch to MAGS for on-pass!

By the way I've just been down to the yot (only 5 mins!or less) and the gadget is stamped "North Sails Pat Pend", it may not have reached UK yet. AS i said I'll let you now it really id the D's B's. :-

Given the sheets are tapered to 2-3mm, not too bulky...!

I've sent Mags a scan of the sketch knots can be hard to undo but I agree it's really how you want to do it in the end.

Here it is....cant understand a word of it myself...

I can understand the system but how does the device not cut the sheets to shreds if it is metal and at 1/4" there must be a sharp edge.

understand the bridle bit, that could work well to avoid any catching on the puller

I assume the hook is instead of the ball that I mentioned earlier. which does look as though it would work well, but unfortunately I am not able to fabricate this as I dont have the time or the equipment to do a good job, so I would need a commercially available fitting.

I think I will buy some new dynema and make up some tapered sheets the other way round. 

Thanks again.

The ring is "round and smooth" and the other edges are radiused! Mine is die cast, but I reckon even I (The Artful Bodger.)could make this with a drill, hacksaw file and emery paper.

Would caution against having any shackle clip or other patented thingummyjig to attach the jib sheets - when the jib is flapping while launching in anything of a brezze you are guaranteed to get a sound clout about the head, not to mention beating the bejabers out of the front of your delicate and expensive carbon mast...

Deepy is right if your sheets are the ultrathin dyneema; if they are slightly larger, then a good old bowline is the answer..

The need to get the sheets round the puller is a bit of a red herring also; when gybing, the sheets are loose and blow themselves across, and on the beat the puller is stowed and not an issue.

Keep it Simple!!

GGGGGGGG

Mr Deep,

Would it be possible to photograph your method please?  Had I paid more attention I would have had a look on Saturday!

Deepy,

You said "join them togethe with a half-hitch on the bight (I think). i.e. the knot where you wrap the ends around your fingers and then make a half hitch together - you all know what I mean!"

Well sorry to be a bit dim here, but i can't visualise what you mean, please could you try to describe again !

Thanks

ed

Having seen the Deepy/ Dempsey system, perhaps I can interpret...

The ends of the sheets are held together, and joined by tying them in a simple overhand knot.

This overhand knot passes through the cringle of the jib clew and is made fast with a single half hitch.

As we know, half hitches left to their own devices come undone, however in this case the overhand knot that is joining the sheets together prevents the half hitch slipping loose.

We use the same knot for joining spinnaker sheets to the sail because it enables the pole to get right up to the corner of the sail.

GGGGGGGGG

Thanks Graham.

Now to strip and whip that bit of string...............

ingenious. thanks

Thanks Graham.  My knot nomenclature ain't that great...  It certainly doesn't come loose - quite the opposite!  Can be a bit of a bugger to get undone at the end of a windy day.  Also, I think it's a certain R. Sampson who's owed the copyright...

To avoid the overhand knot interfeing with the puller, make sure it sits above the half hitch, i.e through - under and up.