If you have read Guy Winders article in the Lib section you may be having the same concerns as me about now. I noticed in the AGM Minutes a refrence to lowering the minimun Bare Hull Weight, it was suggested that this be shelved for another 3 years.

So what happens in 3 years if they decide to change it to 88KGs? Guy Winder is suggesting freezing hull development. I can't see how this will help. Yes all the top guys with their fancy new boats could take out 10kg and still have a competative hull but it seems to me that significant hull mods have come to a natural end anyway.

The bigger issue is one of boats without correctors. I have recently bought 3550. Spud built this boat to weight which on the face of it is not much of a problem but should weight come down it will make my new boat completly uncompetative even with a modern hull shape!

This scares me a little as i spent alot of money buying a competative boat that would last me a fair few years. It now looks possable that it will only be competative for the next 3 years and then i won't be able to sell it ( who would buy an over weight boat when the rest are down to weight?).

Should have bought a different boat one thinks!

If it ain't broke don't fix it leave the basics of the class alone weight, etc what next length?

What was said was that a weight reduction wouldn't be considered for 3 years.

This does not mean that it will be decided that we will redcue the weight, merely that it may be considered. Even if considered that does not mean that commitee wil approve.

Don't fret yet!

As an aside even the Winder Mk 1s can't remove 10 kilos.

The Winder MK1s will be able to remove some though making them a much better option. Consideration is what was suggested but at what point do i decide if my boat is going to be made worthless? As soon as there is a debate started the value of my boat will plummet. If it is decided to stay the same it will recover but having put the doubt into peoples minds as it has mine. If it is deceided to reduce the value will never recover and if i wait until the debate is raging it is then too late. So to avoid taking the risk of loosing the value surely i must sell within the next year and buy something either cheaper, with at least 15kg correctors (which i cannot afford) or in a different (maybe one design) class?

My wooden CT is is about 12 years old and has 10kg's of correctors but I would vote against any wehight reduction. In my view the desire for weight reduction was a major factor in making so many older N12's uncompetitive, it certainly didn't help the divide between the new and the not-so-new boats.

I totally agreed with Dave, I am sure the Twelves completely lost the plot by both reducing weight and then allowing double floors. I would go for no weight reduction AND a maximum weight of correctors (10kgs?)

Quite right too, there is enough talk about PY already without changing one of the foundation rules of the class.

I agree i think the way forward is to stop the new boats getting lighter not stop the old boats being competative.

Having come to Merlins from N12, I totally agree with David.  'Development' class does not and cannot mean that all criteria are up for grabs.  If it did, why stop at weight, why not address length, width, sail area and shape, etc?  Some of the rules are what makes a Merlin a Merlin and not a 14' Skiff.

We've had this debate too many times now. Isn't it time to argue about winged rudders again instead?

Who's Evan Hydrofoils?

Guys!

See my first reply - it's all pie in the sky at the moment!!

The Merlin is not really a development class like the 12 or 14, it is a restricted class.  This subtle difference is important, and as far as I can see the class is very happy in this position.  Development classes allow the rules to develop, the restricted class allows innovation within pretty static rules.

Simple way to look at things, but works for me.
A

Thats just the point though Chris! 'at the moment' means it could happen and unless you can afford to change your boat on a bi-yearly basis i would start to think about it too if i were you!

Jeremy, almost anything could happen!

If you look at where we started in 1945 the class is almost unrecognisable.

All committee can say is that it's not being considered for the time being, but it's inappropriate to tie the hands of future comittees in a class like the Merlin is it not?

Jeremy,  

1.  The weight argument has been around for many years, certainly well before 3550, and has always been met with the same response of 'no change'.

2.  Even if the AGM had given a flat 'no', nothing would have stopped the proponents from raising the subject again.  I read the decision as an attempt to minimise an unnecessary and unhelpful debate.

3.  Finally, even if the debate is resumed, I cannot see why the current, clear, class opinion would be overturned.

You're probably suffering from the cold water blues and it will all seem better in the Spring.  Only seven days till the nights start getting shorter.

These typo's get every where, even on entry forms!!!

True. I am pretty sure that it would never happen and it had not crossed my mind until last night when i was reading the AGM Minutes in the summer mag. then i read Guy Winders notes on this site and thought i would seek opinion. Must say i am pleased to see that there is as much objection to it out there as i feel! I am suffering abit at the moment as my crew broke his foot about a month ago and so i am missing sailing my Merlin. Hope to be at Wembley in Jan so that will steady my nerves a bit. 

Got a new spinny coming too!!

We've been here so many times before...  I personally, along with many others in the class, think that a well thought out and time balanced approach to weight reduction probably wouldn't be bad thing.  It would certainly begin to sound the death knell for our rivals such as the RS400.  Planing upwind anyone?

Unfortunately, like many of the things sometimes bandied around on this forum, it needs to be approached in an unbiased manner with due process.  What this means in this case is several people volunteering at several open meetings across a range of wind conditions, in different parts of the fleet, to sail without out their correctors, and thus not count for the results of that open meeting.  This would result in some data, and then the argument could be had on an informed basis.  At the moment it is all surmisement on one side of the fence and fear and loathing on the other.

Once this data is in we could have a constructive debate and then start the process, say 2kgs per year for 5 years.  I am well aware of the older boat arguments, and also the wooden boat arguments, and these could be addressed at the appropriate time.  In your case Jeremy, I'm sure that Spud built at least 6kgs of removable wood into your boat, although its removal may make it look less pretty unfortunately.

I hope this debate is stimulated and followed-up.  I for one would throw away ST results for an open-meeting in the interests of research.  Meanwhile can the worries and diatribe be placed to one side.

Perhaps the best thing to do is ask the question what benefit a weight reduction would bring to the class as a whole?  Any thoughts?

I would like to see a few of the top shots sail with an EXTRA 5kg and prove it makes sod all difference outside of the test tank. And they would still be able to count their results!

Fantastic!  Here we go again with all the same arguments we had last time this one came up.  I'm just going to sit back and watch for now.  Agree totally with Mr Throat that it would be good to have some actual data rather than what everyone simply assumes to be the case.  On the correctors thing, when GGGGG did the tests and showed that the old hulls with no correctors had a different moment of whatnot everyone got very excited until the results of this year's sailing when the correctorless 3537 and 3573 showed just how little practical importance this had.

How much is in your head?  Rob Heath was perfectly happy with Brain Salad Surgery until he weighed it at the 2000 champs and found it weighed 112 KG

I must admit i was very happy with my NSM2 until i weighed it the nats and it was 113kgs. This in part was why i sold it but it did seem to make sod all difference on the river!

"Weight is useful only to the designers of stean rollers" so said Uffa Fox, having said that Rodney Pattison's Mexico Olympic Flying Dutchman was some 100lbs overweight when weighed in in Acapulco and she was exponentially the fastest FD at the time. BUT I would cousel against reductions weight allows for solid contruction with modern materials which leads to longevity and a strong second hand market, since design seems to be stagnating, longevity of the boats can only be a good thing.

Did you tell the person who bought it or will they find out when they read the above thread?

Sorry for 3537 above read 3539 (Gangsta Paradise)

Some years ago when I had Thunderclap  (3466) I came home from an open meeting to find that one of the correctors had fallen off the bottom of the centreboard case capping during the journey and was lying in the bottom of the boat.  Jacko (being the skinflint we all know he is) had obviously not put in long enough screws, so I took the other corrector out as well with the intention of bolting them both in. I then forgot all about it and sailed the rest of the Whitstable season (no opens - honest!) 8kgs light.  Did it make any noticeable difference?  No.  Did I blast past Mark Barnes down wind - sadly not.

So I have to ask myself - what advantage to the class would reducing the weight give?  Not a lot.  Disadvantage - great unhappiness of owners who have boats that would find it difficult, if not impossible, to shed weight.  The fact that they may have older, less competitive designs is irelevant - it is the perception of being further disadvantaged that is important.

There is no need to change.  We have got a highly successful thriving class.  Lets keep it that way.

Years ago I got very uptight when my Adur7 (the first one built) came out 15lbs overweight. It turned out to be one of the fastest boats of it's generation. That doesn't mean I would support a weight reduction

Maybe I'm missing something but when you can get stones and stones difference in crew weights where exactly does a couple of kilo in a boat come in?

fishing boats are heavy.  if they were not heavy they would not be fishing boats.  and then where would we be?

G1 Winders have upto 11ki's of prime Yorkshire chapel roof strapped to them and it should be recycled back to the roofing industry. 

Benefits will be marginal compared with Philking up the shifts but planing sooner and upwind will become a reality. Should prompt some shape changes too.

There should be no Pb in MR - over 100 boats can make 88kg and plenty more on the way.

Winder 1's have between 7 and 9 kilos of lead.

Winder IIs have 11 kilos if they have the carbon tank and decks.

So if you did want to take 10 kilos out there are only about 55 or 60 boats currently in the class that can do it.

They are aware Cheeky Monkey as the new owners brother was with us at the Nats and i think i moaned at most people about it. However they wanted a plastic boat and from what i now understand nearly all the Wembley one Designs are 10-15kgs overweight.

That figure of 55-60 would mean that only 2 thirds of the fleet at the champs would be able to reduce their weight unless it was only 5kgs reduction in which case is there any point?

Got to agree with Floppy that if we want to plane up wind we should all go on a diet!

handicap system - weigh the boat with the crew and let all us 'lardy louts' have a fair chance!

Don't go there. 
Weighing Crews that is. 
I race a class where we have a max all up crew weight and trussssst me its embarrasing, no pleasure and doesn't work either, we've even allowed an extra crew member in an already crowded workplace to help the light weights! It does allow prizes to be given in crew weight Champagne is ok but tinned tuna!!!!!!!
Incidentally I think that if one of the classes founding fathers were to return to earth he would be pleased with the class and indeed recognise a modern boat as a MR.

If weight is reduced people will spend a fortune in trying to get their boats down to weight. The second-hand value of overweight boats will take a dive, after all most people looking to buy second-hand will always shy away from boats that are over the weight limit. There are a lot of older boats in the fleet that struggle to meet the current limit

Dave, That was the point i was getting at when i started this thread. I bought an expensive boat which, without correctors, is bang on 98kgs. I would loose the majority of its value should this ever happen. I don't think it will though.

Why where the boats never weighed with the rig included? This must form a major part of the boat and you can make considerable savings on weight when changing a rig!

Eat less mince pies!!!

Who ate all the pies?

Jeremy, that boat wasn't expensive at the price you paid!

You got it at that price (about half the going rate for an early Winder) because it doesn't have enough lead.

My boat 3554 (Winder#1) has 10.9kgs as per the certificate so that makes it 89% Merlin, 11% Lead.
The latest one 3667 is about 76.5% Boat, 23.5% Lead

I'd prefer to lose some of the weight in order to allow more development and release the performance benefits.

I like many would like to see the difference in action before the class commits. 

Both Linton and Guy are both keen on investigating these developments and knowing both of them it is absolutely not a device to sell more boats but a simple and obvious way to further optimise the boat we all love.

My Winder Mk1 has 9 kilos of lead.

I could undoubtedly take some of this out (as could Dave Lapes probably) as the rules regarding the ropes and controls changed after our boats were built.

Classes with a similar round the course performance to the Merlin such as Tasars and Laser 2s regularly plane to windward, but from my experience of racing against them, they are not actually that much quicker upwind and only have an edge when they get the right conditions.  I reckon the Merlin would have to lose a lot more than 10Kg to plane upwind reliably, but the difference would not be groundbreaking and unlikely to make any difference to the appeal of the boat.  The Merlin is already a fantastic boat to sail upwind - if you want windward planing, go buy something that is genuinely quick upwind like a 49er / RS800 / B14.  But bet you'll miss the big fleets and close boat on boat racing the Merlin has......

Jon, that is very true and as David has said my boat is 100% Merlin and no substitute. She still goes quick though and i would fancy her in a coming together with a Winder Tales!
I think Dave Lee has a point though, what is wrong with how the boat goes to windward?

Since we are talking about the builds does anyone know what paint is used on the inside of the boat? Mine is in a bit of a sorry state and needs some TLC this winter but i can't find the paint for it.

If the MR Hull weight were to reduce the boat would become increasingly sensitive to crew weight.  I would bet that winning crew weights would reduce as those able to pop onto the plane pulled away from the 'fatties'. Personally I think that would be detrimental to the class as to be competitive you would have to be sub-20 stone and as 'fit as'.  I would also be amazed if hull shapes and rigs did not alter quite significantly in response to the drop in weight.  I believe the current Merlin is beautiful to look at and to sail with a strong, loyal class, any benefits in radical change would be far outweighed by the costs.

Just a point to those who say that 10kgs ain't that much, consider this.  10kgs is about 22lbs which is nigh on 2 stone.    I don't think that anyone would argue that 2 stone (body weight) lighter down a reach in the right conditions is slower.  Thus if it is the boat that weighs 2 stone less, and the crew sitting out power is the same, then it could be a 2 stone 'value added' weigh loss.  Not insignificant I feel.

Equally the same applies upwind, and I certainly take the point about 'genuinely' fast boats upwind.  If the net displacement is equivalent to a 20 stone crew for todays boat weight, but the righting moment of the crew is that of a 22 stone crew, that's going to make a significant difference to the power available upwind.

Jeremy,


Give Horace & Williams (Serene Paints) a call in Burgess Hill West Sussex. This is who Laurie Smart uses for painting the inside of his boats in 2 pack. I have used it many times as well.

What you need is the Weathersafe brand 65/E complete with hardner RAL 3050 (better check) Light Grey. It comes in 1 & 2 litre tins and is absolutely brilliant plus it is quick drying!! Costs about £20 for a 1.5l but well worth it.

Hope this helps?

Cheers

RB

PS they offer a Mail order service.

The fantastic recent Yachts & Yachting article raves on about how balanced, fair and well managed the class is. 

Unquestionably the Merlin now has infinitely more momentum and admiring onlookers than at any time over the last decade so why threaten this?

Putting it simply reducing hull weight would simply raise the barrier to entry and outclass many of the successful boats that people aspire to.

Boats with little or no lead in which would be outclassed include:

3573 Rong Number (The most consistent/successful boat for the last 2 seasons)
3539 Gangstas Paradise (Legendry status as the most successful boat of the last decade)
3549 Unfinished Business (The Nationals, Salcombe & Silver Tiller winning flying machine that Calvert wishes he still owned)

Quite frankly such a suggestion is destructive and simply farcical!!

And I'll tell you what else.......as an industry professional I did in excess of ten days (varied conditions) back to back bench mark boat speed testing based on two new top ten championship boats three years ago.

The results of which confirmed that although the standard boat was arguably compromised no PY reduction or increased class desirability would result.

And the boat didn't plane upwind!!

Shut up, get a life and stop threatening to damage one of the most successful classes in the country.

Spot on!

Hear Hear! Though the cost will preclude startling growth be like the Conservative Party Forward but slowly! Keep the boat strong.

We were the future once - and we still are!!

The future is ou there.........................

Cheers Richard, Laurie was my next port of call as i can't seem to get hold of Spud. 

I notice the boats with no correctors are all wood (i think gangsta is?) as is mine!

Only those from a certain yard...  Laurie consistently builds his wit 8kgs of correctors in.  Make of that what you will!

If you look under the twarts and fordecks of some Bob Hoare Merlins 1962-70 you'll see blocks of wood that seem hollow in fact they contain house bricks as unofficial correctors!

Thats an interesting way of doing it! Does not put the weight in the right places though. How many people actually re-weigh their boats as they get older? Most boats pick up weight at some point in their life and what with rule changes there could be alot of boats heavier than they need be.

Answer, we don't reweigh them except when we enter the champs, when on occasion some people with 10-year old Heaven Sent designs find out they are over 2 kg under and end up scrounging lead!  Properly maintained epoxy-sealed wood boats really should not put on weight and if they are getting heavier there must be some water getting in somewhere it shouldn't unless you have added a thick layer of finish to the hull.  When I parted with Elusive 3 years ago the boat was 99kg with a couple of small correctors and a lot of heavy ironmongery & 16 years old

I have read this thread with interest but cannot get as worked up as Jeremy.   I am however very concerned about the weight of modern rigs, Carbon spars and levlar sails.  I am sure that if I was to weigh a modern rig and compare it with that in my old Smokers there would be a weight saving well in excess of the 10Kg being dicussed.

In my opinion any weight limit discusion should consider the whole boat, not just the sripped hull.  

Wilst it is generally agreed that with modern materials weight reduction is possible but such a change will exclude the traditional methods of construction and make an already expensive class even more expensive.  How many new designs are first built in these modern materials?

Hey Chaps,
When my Merlin ( 2156 )was weighed at the 1990 champs at Parkstone, It was 10Lbs over weight.
I said to the scrutineer "Can I take the house bricks out of the bow tank now ? "
Have you ever seen a scrutineers head jammed through a 4" Inspection Hole ??

I was really joking ........honestly..........Sorry about your ears !!

PS : We had Four Merlin sailors on "REBEL" MGRS 34. ( 34'Merlin-Rocket )in this years Rolex-Fastnet race.
Have a Butchers at :-
" www.photoaction.com "
" Regatta = Fastnet 2005 "
" Yacht = REBEL "
Keep on RACING guys and gals.............( It ain't just a game, like football! )

The differance with the rigs is that any boat can have the rig or sails replaced. Whether this makes economic sense is another matter.

There are not that many boats that can sympathetically remove woodwork / other structure and maintain a nice looking boat.

Nigel

I would have thought that Merlin Sailors would be able to set a spinnaker better than that!!!!!

I think the Fastnet would be more interesting in a merlin anyway!!

Lots of people have strayed to bigger boats but majority come back sooner or later.

Am i going mad or has this thread got shorter?
What happened to the comments from the MRX guy?

I did a little tidy up just to keep things on track.

MRX sailors are welcome to comment, but only constructive ones will remain.

Thanks :)

Wahey!!!!!!!!

Back again chaps to answer your fair comments,
I've never really quite gone away from Merlins.........We've won the classic dinghy race at the Plymouth Classic rally 4 times in the last 6 years.........this year I couldn't attend and it was won by a Merlin from Midland Sailing Club.
The ODD looking blue thing at the front of REBEL is a 48 square metre Genniker. It's optimum wind range is from 50 - 80 degrees apparent wind. 
It's designed as a super close reaching sail.( Our secret weapon )
We also carry a 56 sq metre 1.5 oz heavy reaching spinnaker and  a .75 oz medium spinnaker.
BUT we digress...........
Would a lighter Merlin STILL be a Merlin ??
The same argument could be said for the width........ROLY-POLY is only 5' 10"......Yup, she's hard work to windward in a breeze.......but still a joyful brute to sail.

These guys have done it for conservation and environmental reasons.  Same 10 percent.  Why can't we do it for the same reasons!?  Keep the lead on church roofs I say!

"Cars' minimum weight will be reduced from 605kg to 550kg

Purpose: To eliminate ballast and the associated cost of purchasing and transporting 55kg of high-density materials."  from the ITV F1 website.

Tee hee!

Interesting to compare Merlin hull shapes with NS14 (Australian 14' restricted, non-trapeze class) Ns14's are shed loads lighter than a Merlin, like 34 kilos lighter, but oddly, the latest hull shapes look very similair. Fractionally narrower than a M/R, same white sail area, but no kite. Any Ozzies out there know what their local handicap is viz-a-viz a Fireball, say? A very old source suggests it's about the same as a Merlin. NS's had a period of looking like Tasars(which were developed from them), but then went firmly down the "convergent evolution" path of Merlins, Nat 12's etc. 
Does this suggest that any weight reduction would need to be huge to have any meaningful increase over current Merlin performance?

Yes it does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So why bother?
A Merlin Rocket is of a certain weight set around a set of rules, A NS14,B14 is another set of criteria so it up to the individual. develop within the rule or move off the choice is as it always has been, is yours.......................

Xmas

It was, but not anymore! All done for another year.
New Years Eve next and that should be good, I am off to the land of Guinness!

Hi Jezza,hope had good crimbo? Enjoy A drop of the black stuff! And toast the paddies for me!! Rumour has it a variety of the not so quite yoof crowd have buggered of to foreign lands for a bit of snowboarding and a little apres ski, god help the europeans??????????? Who is doing nay daring to do de old bloody mary with all this lovely winter weather we are expecting?? Still I did actually come 3rd in it once whilst yotting in one of thoses silly Rater type things with sweet FA wind, but a 45' rig does to help things along a little bit!! Did wonder why they mysteriously changed our yardstick 4 the next year?? Still did get a bottle of smirnoff as a prize and if you ever bump into mr J kearns or mr S Dunn just ask them about Anita's legs at the after show party at my parents gaf (yes they were away) it was awesome?? Anyway enough of the debourch behaviour of years gone by (Ask the two above mentioned why sin city bourne end week is aptly named) All there is now is to wish one and all a prosperous new year and if I dont see you at which ever bash you is going to catch up with you all in the new year Happy Yotting AAALEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Have stayed in Sin City a Number of times and spent many a drunken night in Martin's caravan with the above mentioned and Guy Wood playing pigs and taking their money!! Should be at Bloody Mary but not sure if i am working yet. Have a good one and see you all in the New Year.