I am looking for the list of PY's you lot reckon are suitable for older boats to use in handicap races at our club, Banbury SC. I have a list, but want to check it is still up to date. Do you have a link to it for me?
Or is this up to date....

Merlin (3430+) 	        1024
Merlin (3331-3429)	1034
Merlin (3157-3330)	1044
Merlin (2833-3156)	1054
Merlin (2165-2832)	1064
Merlin (1616-2164)	1074
Merlin (895-1615)	1084

Just a thought, but i am sure Merlins used to have a handicap of 1020. If they now sail off 1024, does that mean that they have got slower? Odd for a development class......

Just bear with him, he's a nice guy but he sails a Lark.

And he struggles with maths as he is a (micro)biologist.

He also does not realise that the search option brings up the answer.

Try http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/technical/handicaps.htm.

But then he is a Lark sailor and their website is just like a Lark!

A floppy website?!

Thanks.... really, that has got to be the most help i have had from a Merlin sailor. I knew that i had to do little work to find the answer as most of the Merlin sailors i know think they know it all and like to show off the fact that they can use simple web pages for searches.

Right, i'll pop off back to the Lark site then. It's been a pleasure.

One other thing, so why has the Merlin got slower over the years? Development class or old mans class?

Oooch!

I think he bit.

I don't ever remember it being 1020.

Rutland used 1020 at the tiger trophy last year for reasons known only to them.

I understand the Lark Class is in terminal decline...?

Merlins getting slower?

Is that from a class where no-one is buying new boats because the old ones are faster?

No, that will be a nasty rumour started by a jealous Merlin sailor. Numbers are up the Nats and all opens, second hand boats are hard to find and more and more folk are buying new boats. The class goes from strength to strength, due mainly to it being a superb class with a great set of Officers running the association.

Not biting, just flying the Lark flag on the Merlin site! Pointless really, you lot stick to your expensive boats where money wins!! ;-)

Lark bashing may be fun, but its not very friendly. The guy is politely asking for some information, and goes away with a very bad opinion of Merlin sailors. All this may be some kind of private niggling, but your doing it in public, and it doesn't look good.
Let Lark sailors sail Larks if they want to. Do faster classes laugh at Merlins because they're slow for their size and cost ?
So here's some input from a newbe. I've looked at the forum, and not found much discussion about the future. Do point me in the right direction if I've missed it all.
The list of yardsticks is very interesting. Steady progress from year to year making earlier boats obsolete for anyone seriously wanting to win anything. So does that mean that anyone with an older boat accepts the idea of racing for the fun of being there while others race for the top places ?
I find this rather strange for a development class.
Obsolesence is inevitable, so why maintain a rule, which deliberately makes today's boats slower than they could be ?
I'm very aware of the almost philosophical idea of the responsability the class has to maintain the values which make it unique, and make it survive. Its just that the ideas behind the design (light weight, powerful rig, design freedom, ...) were more radical when it started than they are in today's context. Moths, Cherubs and Fourteens seem to be somewhat more dynamic in their capacity to evolve without losing the spirit that defines them. There are many more Merlins sailing than any of those classes, so the numbers say that the Merlin is doing the right thing, but they seem more in tune with today, and genetically more fit for survival.
Just interested to hear your thoughts on this. They may be loud and angry, but I'm interested.

Our sailing sec (the venerable Jacko) looked at all the handicap results for last year and adjusted py's accordingly. The result is, if you sail a Tales with carbon rig it's 1014, with tin rig 1024 and then stepped down. This has resulted in much closer racing. No longer do we just have to sail the right course to beat the fireballs and 505,s but we have to put some effort in. Messed up my results though!

Thanks. Do you think the RYA will change the PY for Merlins next year. If so will the same method apply to old boats, i.e. will the PY for older boats be the RYA PY plus 10, 20, 30 etc... or will the older Merlins get a fixed PY based on the current PY of 1024. 

It seems to me that a Club or even boat specific PY would suit for our fleet, based on this years RYA PY, and the adjustment this site suggests for older boats.

How would you size up an NSM4 with a carbon rig against a tales with a tin rig?

Ron, do you also use personal results and where do you take 'em from, handicap or fleet results?

I think most of the above was harmless banter, dealt out by two people who could handle it. However, lets keep the argy-bargy down to more of a gentle tease eh?

Going back to the other question about development (can of worms anyone?) you will find the 14s and Moths etc all suffer from the same problems as we do - old boats cannot race against new ones without accepting they may be slower. However, I see a vast quantity of people in all these classes, including ours, who have a great time sailing the older boats, often winning different races, though obviously not at the champs.

I'm sure our chairman will post here shortly, and make our position on handicaps (and being a development class) clear.

Either you have a very free set of rules (Moth) or a very restrictive set of rules (RS400) but rules they are and you try to build and sail the fastest boat within the constraints.  If you sail a Moth there would be a speed gain from having a longer waterline and larger sail area, but it would not be a Moth.  The Merlin formula gives an interesting balance of qualities that is not about straight-line planing speed but a number of others as well & after all it's not just hull shape that makes a new boat quicker

I did find it rather strange at Banbury last year that the Vintage event was not sailed off handicaps as a great deal of development obviously went into boats from 1946 (Kate) to 1975 (Boat no 3005) which results in a huge increase of boat speed (otherwise old boats would still be competitive at championships n'est ce pas?). Not that I advocate PYs for Championships!!  In addition many older boats now sport rigs which have updated them possibly to a lower PY.   The winning is not important but it would be nice to feel that there was a level playing field for those events.  I notice that next year at Upper Thames 2-day Open event (See vintage section) handicaps will apply.  Should prove interesting.

The interesting question is, if the class handicapping system is close to being reliable (and after all these years it should be) why are we opposed to Merlins racing against each other on handicap?  Maybe we should explore a handicap series alongside the Opens?  

A decison of some sort is going to be needed soon when the vintage and classic criteria (thirty years old) start to include the early CTs

We used the class handicapping system at the Upper Thames Meeting this year for the Saturday race which seemed to work well and the race was won by Berrie Richie in 847(?)It would have been won by Richard Page and Phil Dalby in 1222 had it not been for some over-enthusiastic starting so the handicapping seems to work well. (see the UTSC Oper Meeting report)

Chris

This is a recurrent discussion, isn't it?  I am sure we have been here before, but it does no harm to air these topics again.

It is very unlikely that the RYA will amend the Merlin handicap because of the way the returns system works.  Some clubs sail old boats and use the higher handicap numbers, some have fleets of new boats that they feel should use lower numbers to make the boys and girls work harder - net result, an average, currently 1024.  The last time I saw the stats the average was 1028, but I would not have been able to live with myself had I agreed to an easing of the PY!  So 1024 it stayed..

With regard to new boats doing the winning.... look at any class and there will be a high proportion of new boats at the front of the fleet.  Notable exceptions are Scorpions and Graduates, where individual boats (Botty Burp the Barbarian and Stinger, for example) continue to trounce allcomers with great regularity.

Continuous steady development has worked well for the Merlin, and currently we are seeing more top quality boats hitting the second hand market, because new boats are seen to be a worthwhile investment by the lucky folks who can afford them.  It was interesting to note in the recent Dinghy mag review that the RS400 chap - very fairly, I thought, acknowledged that the Merlin has continued to look modern and attractive.

The balance between one design and development is a crucial one - many newer one designs are based on the evolutions pioneered by the development classes. I don't feel the need to knock either side of the argument - just enjoy the sailing and go with the flow.  Stay passionate about the Merlin Rocket, though....

GGGGGGG

Shoreham local Merlin PY was changed to 1000 at start of the year. They may reduce even more next year to 980-990. Anyone got a small outboard I can borrow?

Ross

Just to put things in perspective here.

This kicked off because BSC SS chap told me that I got beaten by a minute by a boat 300 numbers older than mine when I'd crossed the line a short time ahead.  The numbers were bang on.  My sailing was duff.  BSC SS chap rightly checked the PY's cos he's a nice bloke and I am a bad loser.  For the record, I've not beaten him on handicap yet either.

There is a bit of private banter going on here but compared to the Finn/Phantom bashing that went on it's nothing.

Besides, if BSC SS chap wasn't such a big sissy Lark sailor he's get a real boat and he could take the mickey out of the squidgy bendy boats too.

The tight gits!  Why can't the other people learn to sail...

What our dear BSC SS does not realise is that when we decided to use the age related Merlin handicaps at Banbury, the Sailing Committee adopted the exact formula from the MR site ie current PN and then steps on 10 according to age.  So if PN changes then BSC handicaps change.

There is also the comment about Merlins getting slower.  My understanding is that PNs have not relation to the speed of any particular class of both but are more a reflection on how that class of boat performed in the handicap races such as Bloody Mary that PN committee uses to decide handicaps.

Jon, NSM4 with carbon rig would sail off of 1024, tales with tin rig 1024. 1014 is reserved for plastic boats with carbon. We only use personal handicaps for our Helms Trophy race. All in all the numbers that Jacko has worked out seem fair as the racing has become much closer at our club. One factor that has not been built in though is crews ability. You could be sailing a new plastic boat with carbon rig buthave a novice crew whereas a slightly older boat with tin rig could have a super duper crew, no contest! For club racing I think you have to go with whatever produces the best racing at your club.

I think that if the current PY changes and the Merlin fleet suggest, via their web site, that the older boats have PY +10 going down in steps, then an older boat will always be disadvantaged in a hanicap race. 

This is, in part, due to the fact that new designs and boats go faster, whereas the old boats have a 'fixed' speed, due to the age and design of the hull. That is to say, a boat from the 70's that has hull shape X will not get faster if a new boat of hull shape CT+ is an improvement on CT.

So if a boat with hull shape X currently has a PY of 1024 + 30 (1054) and races against a CT hull in a handicap race all should be equal (in an ideal world). If CT+ then comes on the scene and is faster than CT, and the PY is given as 1020, for example, then why should boat with hull shape X suddenly have to sail off 1050 (1020 + 30) when it has not had an improvement in hull shape?

As always, it is a pleasure to be here on the Merlin forum.

i'm a member of the phantom association as well as Merlin, the Finn bashing that went on got out of hand, and was stirred up mainly by people who were nothing to do with either class.

Stuart

PN have nothing to do with how fast a boat goes but (supposedly) relate to its comparitive ability to other dinghies eg Lark, Phantom, etc and is based on data collected by RYA from certain large handicap races.  I am sure that Chairman G could shed more light on this - I am basing my comments on a conversation that I had with the late John Anstey when he was Chairman of the PY Committee.

If we agree that the 10+ steps are correct then the only question is are there any designs which are quicker than Canterbury Tales?

As a PS just in case anybody thinks we are obsessed with PNs at Banbury, we only use these for a few handicap races during the year and for the Winter Series as otherwise the Merlins race as a Fleet and hence don't care what the Lark does!

RichardT has missed the point. My question to Chairman GGGGGGGGG is should older boats at club level be penalised due to faster hulls coming onto the scene, if the Merlin Rocket association continues to use the process of using incrmental steps of 10 for PYs based on the current or adjusted PY?

The graduated PY system we use does NOT penalise older boats....I would explain that, but I cant quite find the words and have just got to work rather late today, sorry!

RT is just pointing out that our focus at BSC is very much on class racing which is just as well as he sails of 1024 and I sail of 1034 and my boat is considerably faster than his...

Tee hee, coudn't wait to get that in :-)

Older boats do get squeezed if faster boats arrive on the scene and the base PY doesn't reduce to reflect this.  In this scenario, older can include last season's boats... It is always crucial to emphasise the extent to which PY numbers are a guide to be adjusted to local conditions.

Richard T's comment on the source of info that the PY Advisory Panel use is wide of the mark.. The panel uses returns from sailing clubs - your club will get one - in which the handicap officer (every club has one doesn't it?) advises the classes they race, the PY they use, and the PY they would recommend for those boats.  This is all fed into an electronic abacus, statistically manipulated, and spat out with a series of averages from which numbers are confirmed or amended.  The panel under John Anstey specifically excluded the big events, because of the extent to which the conditions on any given day could skew the results.  My own view was that even given this proviso, the results provided valuable information as to the relative performance of boats.  Nowadays, the race management of the big pursuit races are encouraged to make returns to help make the statistics more accurate.

Getting returns from clubs is, and always has been, a problem, and if the clubs who race new merlins don't make returns recommending a lower PY number, it will never happen.  It is not within the terms of reference of the panel to make adjustments based purely upon instinct; if the numbers indicate that a change is due, and the knowledge of, for example, rule changes that would make a boat faster, bears out an adjustment, one would be made, but the impetus must come from the returns.

So.. if you think the MR handicap needs adjusting, make sure your club has submitted a return advising that!

GGGGGGGG

I have been following this thread for a few days now and for the record sail a 1978 smokers and before that a 1973 Ghost Rider my own experience is that this was the first year that any of my 3 Clubs based in Scotland would allow the Old Boat PY's to be used I have raced the previous 5 years @ 1024. it has to be said that this is more a result of ignorance and not being willing to listen to protests from the 1 design fleets(anything for a quiet life) Mentality.
This does not stop me from racing it just makes it all the more sweet when you will off of 1024.
I race my Merlin for the fun and place myself in the top half of the fleet on handicap off of 1024 and this year won the club championships single handed with 3 sails.
Sweet Charity is original in every way, main and jib are over 10 years old and have a new kite(not a big budget rebuild)
My point is how do we ensure that the older boats get on the water every week and that clubs do there bit with the support of the revised py numbers?

As the owner and regular sailor of both a Merlin AND a Lark I can testify that BOTH give great sailing - and the new Lark is half the price of a Merlin too so each to their own. 
There are also ex-Merlin sailors at the top of the Lark fleet!

The adjusted handicaps used at Upper Thames did seem to work despite the light winds so please use them more, especially next year when many vintage Merlins may emerge for the anniversary events.

As for PY's, PLEASE can any clubs with YW dayboats send in their results. PY 1200 really isn't fair on the rest of us - Larks, Merlins or...!!

what's a YW dayboat?

what's a YW dayboat?

http://www.ywdb.co.uk/association.htm

Garry can google too.

As Sailing Secretary of Banbury SC i can confirm that i have sent in the returns to the RYA. My point is........

IF the PY for a Merlin changes and the MROA advise we use current PY plus a number (10 per 5 years back from 1989) then old boats in club handicap races will be disadvantaged, and i quote: 'Although Merlin Rocket designs have developed considerably over the years, the Portsmouth Yardstick System publishes a Portsmouth Number to apply to all Merlin Rockets, which is unfair on older boats'.

Why should the older boats have to take a new number, based on a revised handicap (should it ever happen) and add an arbitory number? 

As Sailing Secretary i am in a position to try to ensure Club racing is fair at our Club. On that note, if the PY is altered, up or down, then all older boats have a PY that is different compared to a previous year. Surely the MROA can establish a PY for old boats and not use the current PY plus 10 per 5 years. 

If i race against a Merlin that is 30 years old this year it will have a PY of 1054. If the PY changes in the next few years (Merlins are a development class after all) why should the Merlin sailor get disadvantaged by having a reduced PY compared to any other boat that has a fixed (more likely in a non-developemnet class, e.g. Lark, L2000, Laser, GP14, Topper or Firefly) PY?

I am trying to establish a system at our Club that is fair for the Merlin sailors that have older boats..... Please help me on this one.....

Chairman GGGGG, if you would like to talk to me one to one, please e-mail me.

Quote from the Chairmans earlier string 'It is always crucial to emphasise the extent to which PY numbers are a guide to be adjusted to local conditions'

So if you arrive at  handicap figures that work for your club, fleet and conditions you can stick with them regardless of what happens to the headline PY number.

Some clubs will even add a numbers if a spinnaker is not used or fitted to a boat.  I don't mean not used on the day but maybe doesn't have one!!  Again local conditions in the pursuit of close handicapping.  Lasers have a radial sail handicap different from full I believe but you do have the option of which sail you use

Scotty, cheers for the comments. I appreciate the system, trouble is we use the guidlines set out by the MROA and i want to set a precident of using fixed numbers. I am looking for backup from the MROA and currenlty working it through via this forum. Thanks again for the comments, it is exactly what we need, i.e. to move away from the suggested system and use a fixed number system.

Garry, fellow Lark sailor from Bristol???, See you at the Inlands next year, if not before, look me up if you go to any other Opens.

Just to Jon (see comment above)

In your dreams!  Even with carbon mast, etc, you are still slower!

how come the pya for the mrx is 1000? do they enjoy getting beat or is there hidden potential?

'BSC SS Chap' Just add my '5 peneth' If/when the PY gets changed it will be a reflection of newer boats sailing well under the current number 1024 at their clubs and I suspect there Sailing secs will start off with 'Trial/Club' numbers to provide fairer racing in their Clubs. I note that a few clubs appear to have already done this, quite how or where the break point for applying a new number will take someone more imformed than I. But just to start or keep the thread moving I'd think around 3570ish before loads of carbon decks & substructure and the necesity for 20-30kg of correctors where required. For sailing secs at club level I think boats under that number would remain at what was there current number when they were built 1024.
As GGGG comments PY returns are based on averages so untill many of the really fast guy & girls consistantly show up & blow away there opposistion at Club & PY events little will require any change. As the owner of an old bost I'd have no problem with a newer boat turning up at my club and having to race it on the presant PY scales because at the end of the day thats what its all about. Have Fun Mr Sailing Sec and don't let the bu**ers get to you! Barry 3236/3503

Hmm, obviously by faster you mean like at Blithfield.........

Like Shoreham (above) Whitstable have put all our 14 modern boats on 1000 and our one old boat on the class recommended PY fudge. Old and new are still blowing away all comers in handicap races. It is extremely rare for any other class to beat the LAST Merlin, let alone the first, and the stalwart Bob Long in 2717 is a safe bet for top 6 in any light weather. Sea sailing tends to be less flukey than inland and the two sea clubs may be a better indicator of development speed.

I have thought for a long while now that rather than make the development classes or classes that have made significant rule changes faster under the PY scheme, classes that have stood still should be made slower.

Phantoms have gone carbon, GPs have gone plastic and self draining and those are just two examples.

ALL traditional classes develop to some degree, even enterprises made the momentous decision a couple of years ago to remove the lump of lead from the mast that emulates the tip weight of a wooden mast! Has their PY changed?

But very few classes actually do stand still - even the strict one design Laser has introduced changes such as the carbon tiller and much upgraded control systems.  Because of the improved rig control every serious Laser sailor now uses this kit, so the boats have got a bit faster around the course, but as yet their PY is unchanged.