My old Moonrocket 2254 had a traveller - great windward performance but a pain to tack with any frequency. My new project is an NSM2 which has a fixed hoop. I was going to replace this with a square-topped hoop (to go with the deck-stepped mast) but then fell to thinking - (always preferable to actually DOING anything). Both my current and previous Int 14's have strops that seem to allow blistering performance. Strops allow the boom to be centred and cope with raking rigs; they also weigh very little. True they occupy the width of the boat, but then so does a traveller pulled to one side. There must be SOME reason why Merlins don't use them, so could some knowledgeable person help me out please.

My old Smokers has always had a strop.  Originally fixed to traveller whick gave you the best of both. However, I found I harly every moved the traveller and when it broke I took it out and fitted a simple strop.
Boat has always been fast and still is in confined waters.  The main benifit of a hoop is as a zimmer frame!

I wish you'd said, my crew threw a strop only the other day....

On a serious note, I believe Laurie Smarts own merlin "Make it So"  has strops, not a hoop and he knows a thing or two about building and sailing Merlins.

You are right. Laurie's boat does have a strop as do most of the 'make it so' boats he has built. He swears by a centre strop and quote "cannot stand square top hoops". I will contact him amd find out his method of thinking and give feedback.

Thanks Richard, I'd be really keen to hear what he has to say.

Richard, Quite simple, move the strop to the transom, run the maisheet along the boom down to the cleat, loads of room for you and the crew with no hoop, and it has all the benifits of the strop action.
I have used this on merlins for 15years without any problems, 
Hoops who needs them?

Dave

What is the best way to set up centre or transom strop arrangement given that the correct lengths are critical. I note you use the transom arrangement but I intend centre strop i.e  Do you have any dimensionsal data for correct set up?

Thanks

Just how critical are the dimensions?

Does one adjust the strop after tacks or does one simply adjust it to suit the boom position (given rake / sailshape / kicker setting)

Only real drawback of a strop is that it's marginally easier if you are clumsy like me to catch feet etc in the string than in a hoop.  A centre-slung strop will not quite centre the boom unless pulled to windward, which negates the main advantage of not having to adjust it each tack.  Dave F's system however will get the boom right on the centreline.  Systems should allow for some adjustment as the ideal position varies with mast rake.

Andrew

Do you have a hoop or strop on 3511?

What are the advantages/disadvantages of a hoop v strop? I assume the only reason for a square hoop and traveller is to centre the main. Why therfore do 14's manage so well with transom split mains as opposed to using hoops?

You dont need measurement, I use a std mainsheet with a two lengths of 4mm kevlar (or whatever)sown into the end(aprox 300mm) which attach to the centre core of the mainsheet then the outer is pulled back over and stiched down, any sailmaker/chandler can do it.
Its adjusted so that when the boom is in the centre then the 4mm lengths have gone round the rear boom pulley by about .3-.5M.
the other ends are attached to the outer transom. I drilled a 4.5mm hole and use a stopper knot, adjusting it to make the rope joint central.
having the rope joint go through the pulley stops any splitting action.
If you want to see before trying I will be at Bala for the inlands.

But if you use a split rear sheet you need loads more main sheet and the abilty to sheet out in a sudden gust is inevitably slower. However some Fireballs use this system and you obviously do Dave, so it must be manageable. Another problem I can envisage is the tiller extension catching on the rear split sheet. Int 14's overcome this with twin extensions - but then they ARE 2 metres long!

No you have less main sheet as it goes from the transom through a pulley in the boom, to the mid point of the boom down to the cleat pulley and out to you, a direct upside down U shape, only 2 pulley and a cleat are used. you could even sail 49er style as i sometimes do on a windy reach

Dave,

Would there be any chance of you emailing me some pictures of your strop arrangement please?

Many thanks

I will sort some out for you.

This quick enough
http://www.sail.org.uk/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core:ShowItem&g2_itemId=9070
http://www.sail.org.uk/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core:ShowItem&g2_itemId=8836
http://www.sail.org.uk/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core:ShowItem&g2_itemId=8689

The second white rope from the boom is for direct contact, gybing flicking battern etc.

what a legend.

Thanks Dave.

Richard wrote an article on this for a 2003 magazine, which is linked below.
Any bits you wish to add, Richard?

Mags,

You're showing me up. I'm supposed to be pleading ignorance on this thread!!

Thanks for posting the link. It should answer all our questions. Apart from the one why do we still have hoops in the boat???

Its for thoes witout natural balance to hold onto, or just a back rest for the crew.

The problem with the artical is it shows the gp14 style knotted strop, great for fixed masts.
Mine uses a flowing link which passes through the pulley, which gives central position pulling no matter what the mast rake.

One obsevation with square hoops, they can, with a over tight kicker actualy hook the main without the helm knowing, I saw quite a lot of this happening in the wind luls at salcombe this year, in the boats I overtook up wind, you need to adjust the kicker just as much as the main sheet.
with my system I can leave the kicker off slightly and pull or ease the sheet to close or open the leach of the sail, in pufs and luls doing the job of the kicker.

and how many times has that happened to me I ask myself..... main catching hoop going through tack. Loads, and it's a bugger to sort out especially when both are hiking hard!

Strops are starting to look more appealing.

not to mention cheaper...

however, the number of times i grabbed the hoop for support during salcombe week shows that i have come to rely on it!

Yes and when you let go to pull the main in or stear, your off balance and oh look time for a swim.

Gave up square hoop when nearly poked my eye out. Made an adjustable strop which could be pulled and cleated to weather. Worked perfectly. Kept falling over - put hoop back. Und zo weiter.

Mike,

Can you give some more info re the adjustable strop that you could pull to windward.

Many thanks,

Thats true - those stainless hoops are dangerous - I've headbutted mine twice, and once the top shackle nearly elongated my nostril. Need to make sure I keep my head out of the mainsheet when gybing I guess!

Having watched this thread since its beginning, I do not think anyone has really answered Richard S's original question as to why Merlins prefer hoops to strops.

We have had many stroppists postings very eloquently on why strops are best but no real hoopists!  I cannot believe that the reason for the overwhelming preference for hoops is either as zimmer frame for aged helms or as back rests for crews!

What's the real answer????

I think you hit it on the head Richard

The plus for the hoop is that it works (provided adjusted and maintained!), keeps all the bits of the mainsheet in the middle of the boat, is difficult to trip over it as well as providing a handhold for the clumsy helmsman.

Enough?

Hoop allows one to swing ones long tiller extension around the back of the boat whilst tacking/gybing.

Massive plus.

A hoop is a: very good for the helm to grap to help him cover the wide distance across the boat and b: the crew can have a nice back rest.

Im thinking about taking my hoop out for a split sheet strop. Sailing 'thin ice' upwind I need to sit forward of the hoop or at least astride the thwart. When tacking I have to come back, which sticks the transom in the water and slows it all right up! I spose you'd have to flip the extension round the back of the mainsheet swivel, and if this was possible you could cross the boat a bit further forward?

Will taking out the hoop weaken the structure of the hull? Is there any alternative to drilling holes each side in the very back of the gunwhales?

Would miss that zimmer tho....

The hoop does not contribute to the strength of the hull. Why not install a low grab rail if you really need one! Useful for the crew to brace his foot against when sliding back for a reach.

would you put the grab rail in place of the hoop? might be usefull as a U shaped low tube a bit like a gymnasts 'pommel' 

With this set up would the helm be able to move across the boat forward of the mainsheet when tacking? (might be a crew in the way!)

Is your mainsheet jammer in the middle of the boat?  If so how much further forward are you expecting to get during a tack?

You'll still have to move aft of the jammer as you cross the boat.

I my boat I gybe in light airs in front of the jammer, sheeting the main from the boom.
and a crash tack can be maid infront as well, when required in light winds

yes the main is sheeted in the centre of the boat.
what do you do with the tiller extension and does the crew get in the way?

geroff my land!

share or be squished

So... is it possible for the helm to get across the boat in a tack in front of the central main ratchet - would you need to use a double tiller extension like on a 14 or 49er? or drop the tiller and hope to pick it up on the other side

The only way is to make it transom sheeted with the split tail.

That would work - then you could tack quicker'n greased weasel sh*t.

Used a split main on fireball and merlin, tacking no problem just push the tiller extension away and follow it across.

Spot on floppy, you Laser tack it.

By the way floppy that hoop you gave me is working a treat lol.......

Horses for courses..

That's got to be pun of the week.

On one of his boats my brother John Harris had a set-up which I always thought to be a good compromise. 

He cut an IYE traveller in two and connected the halves together on a track with a length of stainless tube between them. Each end of a  strop was attached to the halves of the traveller. Thus the strop could be moved up or down the traveller to  suit the conditions. 

To cope with differing mast rakes I guess you could make the strop lengths adjustable.

Reporting back that I tried the split mainsheet  for the first time at Forfar regatta this weekend and it worked a treat.  The only problem was the frequency with which the slack between the two blocks on the boom tried to strangle me, but I have seen a number of arrangements on other classes which should be readily adaptable.  A big round of applause for the Forum for bringing this one out.

If you look in the Vintage Photographs there is a picture of exactly the system Robert Harris describes in 1970. It worked then anyway.

That system is on my fathers boat Tobacco road as mentioned earlier in this thread. It is not on the boat anymore as it kept breaking so there is a simple rope strop now with no traveler. Still works well though.