It is my understanding that the older boats have been invited to start a number of races at the 60th nationals at Hayling. Please could someone clarify the nature and extent of these races.I have heard various rumours varying from 1 day to 6 days. Personally I would be keen to come and join in for about 2 to 3 days but could not justify making a week out of it.
In what will esentially be 'fun racing' is there any way so far devised for splitting the older boats. It has always been a challenge , and I will hark back to Salcombe 2000, when the old boat arena is defined by a random number. The good ship Splatter is only 5'6" wide and struggels against the likes of a Random Kipper of whatever they are called! It would be good to see a sensible split based more on design shape than random sail number. And here's one for the you, where would 3560 LUKA sit, being a Passing Cloud design incorporating carbon decks and the like?
I would be interested to hear other potential competitors views on the duration of Vintage boats at the Nats , and the views on catorgarising them sensibly. And please Mr.Vines, no funny stuff.

If only it were funny...

Phil,
You raise some interesting questions. Obviously we all want to encourage old boats to come to our 60th.
As I recall the class policy it is to go in 10 year age bands. Mervyn tells me that he considers anything more than 30 years old to be in his 'Vintage Wing'. That is below 3005!
Your Splatter is some 15 years older than that and Mervyn is planning to bring number 1!
I understand that there is to be a second race which will start with the main fleet but only do one triangle and one sausage, for boats or people who feel that the full thing might be too much for them.
Essentialy it seems to me that the main thing is get people to come along and enjoy the celebration and the racing - if enough old boats come then it will be easy to lay on the right categories for prizes.

If I may, I would hardly describe a merlin with the number 3005 as a vintage boat, a classic maybe but certainly not a vintage.  

I think the Vintage Wing is a great idea especially for us train spotters, but how about introducing further catagories such as Classic and maybe even Modern Classic (as the class continues to evolve).

Prizes for each catagory in the larger events should encourage club racer participation and plus keep a healthy regenration of older boats within the fleet

What do you think..?

The 14's have 3 versions don't they, current, penultimate and classic.

Surely the definition of vintage is how good the year was, not how many years ago it happened...

What we realy need is to know how many are going to show at Hayling.
It could be really big - but if all the old boats don't commit until the last minute then the management can't work out the categories.
If we all enter early, or at least tell Willie we are comming (or will come if it only 3 days?)- then this debate will be well worthwhile.

Lets work out the catagories anyway, demo them at Salcombe and introduce them for the Champs...?

In 1990 we took " Roly-Poly " 2156 to the Merlin Nationals at Poole.
( Star Rocket by Mike Noakes 5' 10" beam )
We weren't last in any race.
We won the buttercup trophy.
We even beat Dick Batt in one race.
Ok, 68th overall out of about 80 entries doesn't set the class alight.
BUT, we were the oldest boat there by a number of years.
Roly Poly has won the Classic Dinghy race at the Plymouth Classic Festival a number of times.
Come down to Plymouth at the end of July for some great racing around Plymouth Sound.
Give us a run for our money !!!!
Superb apres sail........call starboard on 50'old gaffers ( If you dare ??? )

Nigel.

As Pat suggests, I will fill out the entry forms and exprss my intention to participate for the first three days. If any other Vintage /Classics do the same Willy has a chance of a) getting a handle on numbers and b) negociating a tidy deal for our fees.

Any of you Lymington boys planning on joining the Vintage/Classics for a few days at the Champs at Hayling

Train Spotter will be pleased to learn that according to the section on Vintage and Classic Boat competitions on page 29 of the current yearbook, only Merlins built from solid planks - not plywood - clenched to ribs plus No.165 are vintage. Classic boats are all those with a beam less than 5' 8" excluding gunwhales, which would include 3360. This does not agree with Pat's cutoff sail number of 3005, which is based on a rolling 30-year rule which brings us to 1975 and I suspect was invented by Mervyn Allen. As 80% of all Merlins had been built by then, this is pretty broad brush, especially as it includes the early Smokers, which it can be argued were the first modern Merlins and in any case are a lot wider than 5'8".

But so what? We're not going to get equality under any formula, especially if we take account of the impact of modern rigs and sails. Phil's Adur 7 is very well kitted out and she will go like s**t off a shovel at Hayling Island in anything of a breeze. My Jack Holt Nellie, 847, on the other hand, shines with light winds and short tacking. 

So whatever handicap is used, the results will be a lottery. So who cares? The important thing is to give the old boats a good sail, which probably means a different course from the main fleet, although it would be fun to start all together. But not a whole week. I vote for three races - Sun to Tues.

Berry, I bow to your expetise in this matter and pass to you the sacred anorak.

By the way

A little bird tells me you are looking to put a carbon rig on MR847, would this be an attempt to improve your odds in the lottery...?

Come to the Nationals!!!! Us Lymington boys are very shy.  However Smith was spotted from a ferry with two of his 4 kids on board, for the first time, in his NSM4 on Sunday morning. Harry Hutch has been out a few times, Stan Cocheran, works for Harken, has also picked up a very old boat which he is currently trying to sink on Monday night racing.  Another lady appeared out of the blue with New Potatoe design, and lazy sod Barrow hopes to get his out of the garage next weekend.  As for getting up to the Nationals not sure this year but next year a must.  Suspect Smith will make a royal visit as past champion and I shall certainly be coming over for a look. 

We are taking it slowly and using the boats to bring a number of 13 yr old's on a bit.  It is interesting that the Metlin has almost exactly the same control sustems as a big racing boat so it is great for getting the kids ready for big boat sailing as well.

Berry, you speak a lot of sense. In fact the most sense that I have heard regarding the older boats since my visit to Salc in 2000 where it was clear the MROA had no idea or cares about the grouping of the older boats. It should be remembered that ther are about 60 boats that have a great love of motorways, that leaves about 3500,minus a few burnt or rotten ones, that's a lot of boats!
With your intelligent approach to the banding, can I suggest you send a formal statement to the Chairman or whoever so this issue can be settled, perhaps at the next AGM.It will then give the other 3500 good souls, including myself, a definitive place and within the association and events can take account of this by looking at our rule book.
I am in favour of seeing something along the lines Vintage(planked) Classic (narrow ply) modern Classic ( maybe up to the first tales) and then the Moderns. that way you do not have to take account of sail sail numbers as there was obviously an overlap between the classics and modern classics in the 60's.
It would be good to see a definitive structure, the only account so far in the rule book is a random handicap system based on numbers.

Actually, I think you will find that contrary to the scurilous reportage above, I was in fact trying very hard NOT to sink....

so you're thinking of making an appearance then?

Not rejecting it out of hand but I have a centreboard case/rest of hull non-interface issue to address before any other plans can be made!

My brother John Harris has entered our family treasure Passing Cloud 1079 for Salcombe. John's record at Salcombe is surpassed only by Phil King so an each way bet maybe?

Not if I can help it!

Wake up guys, So far only one oldie entered, if you don't then Willy won't organise it so come on sign up!