Spinnaker Halyard pump

14/04/2017 07:24:19
Hi. Does anyone have any decent photos or a drawing of a pump action kite halyard and a downhaul take away that works well?

My boat currently has a combined system that looks great on the slipway but has lots of friction on the drop and we struggle to get it set right to both feed the downhaul out and actually pump on the hoist. 

14/04/2017 09:20:33
Paul
Strangely enough I was think about the same thing last night.  Loads of pictures on Google from gp14s, fireballs and miracles but my concern is the chute may be a little too small on the Merlin.  Also, where is a strong point to mount the fittings on a standard Winder?

14/04/2017 13:15:11
Barnsie
We run the pump system on Dancing Brave (3763), and after a couple of refinements all works well and would not remove. The key is tension on the take-up on the downhaul (all elastic is Marlow 5 mm ) with a separate 3 mm dynema line with the tension coming off the elastic for the down haul as the halyard is fired and kite hoisted. Unfortunately the boat is in bits at Whitstable (traveller sorting), but will take more photos of the take-up when next rigged. Simon Potts may have some photos as well

14/04/2017 17:14:43
Paul
Cheers.  I'd be interested to see that.  Do you have a pump up / pump down system as used by the fireballs,  or just to raise the spinnaker? 

14/04/2017 20:03:29
Barnsie
Pump up and a pull down by hand as you have to consider the fly away pole and small chute, plus life of the kite and resistance compared to bagging a kite on the fireball. I think a pump down would not work unless you have a very strong crew, and then I would think that the area around the central (2 for such a system) patches may get damaged. Kite launch is about 3  - 4 seconds and retrieval around 8 - 10 seconds if all goes according to plan, but Alex has fast hand movements and is quite strong. Kite hoist is 3 pumps

14/04/2017 23:19:28
Paul
Yep. Thought as much.  Bit I can't get my head round is how the downhaul works with this system. Is the halyard still continuous as I know there is a take up system on the pump system and the bungee you mentioned earlier must want to draw back the downhaul so you could end up with the crease in the spinney. I'm sure if I saw one it would be obvious! 

15/04/2017 11:11:38
Gareth Griffiths NHRC
I'm thinking of putting a 1:2 purchase inside the rig to make hoist faster and pull down easier

15/04/2017 12:06:41
Barnsie
Gareth great until it twists inside the mast and then you cannot get to it to sort and have the kite stuck part way up. Not sure how they work on Fireballs but know skiffs have tried and got rid of.
 
Paul the halyard and downhaul are separates. Downhaul need to make sure the elastic tension and downhaul lengths are right so as not to pull the centre of the kite down and distorting the sail in light airs. We had those issues when we tried it first time. The down haul is spliced/anchored by the bow tank and has a turn block on the bow tank rear corner with the elastic attached to a single block between the turn block and splice to make the take up of the downhaul into a 2 - 1 to avoid line lying around in the bottom of the boat and tangling

15/04/2017 13:13:15
Gareth Griffiths
Yes I figured that was an issue but I used a 1:2 on 16s in Sydney and it worked. 470s even had 1:3.

Have you seen the gp14 1:2 system that's quite interesting

Also thinking about whether to make a few and aft hoist point so crew or helm can launch depending on situation!

15/04/2017 20:12:58
Chris Martin
With the pump there is no need for a crew hoist. Even I can do it in any conditions.

15/04/2017 22:19:23
Barnsie
Yes Chris is right. Alex fires the pole and I pump the kite. Hence 3 - 4 seconds from upwind to set. 

15/04/2017 22:44:40
Paul
Well I'm sold on it. I'll have a nose round the boat park to see how to fix it up when I'm at Banbury, as I've always felt it a bit precarious steering with my knees in anything over an F2!

16/04/2017 07:43:39
Barnsie
Try a B14 is a force 5 launching down a wave as the helm pulls the pole out. All good fun and with the handle, just a one arm pun action. So will be fine as steering with the other hand

17/04/2017 13:17:01
Gareth Griffiths NHRC
So what blocks, rope and elastic are people recommending and where?

18/04/2017 09:55:01
Stuart Bates MR3615
Gareth,
 
With regards to a 1:2 on the Halyard there may be an issue with the friction coming out of the spinnaker chute, GP's and 470's use bags, so there isn't the same amount of friction involved in the hoist.  Probably the best way is to try it using a line attached at the bottom of the Jib, this then passes through a block on the halyard and then attaches to the top of the kite.  Make sure that this line is long enough to allow the kite to fly away from the mast when fully hoisted, as it will tighten up when raked.  This way you can test it before cutting the main halyard line to length.

18/04/2017 10:23:06
Gareth Griffiths
Cheers Stuart

I saw that system in a few GP photos.

20/05/2017 11:08:49
Mike
I can post pics of a fireball set up if it helps, and a Merlin I helped rig with it. 
 you'll not be able to keep a continuous halyard though. It's fiddly to set up, and prone to twisting on old halyards. 

Trade off is the crew gets the downhaul line in their feet up wind, instead of halyard in yours downward. 

20/05/2017 20:32:57
Broz
Diamond Smiles has a roller under the deck, It makes up and down very easy. 

21/05/2017 15:53:03
Stuart Bates MR3615
Mike,
 
 You could always have the end of the downhaul led to the moving block of the halyard takeup, this would reduce the amount of line in the bottom of the boat.  A purchase may be required to reduce the amount of line.

31/05/2017 18:44:04
Gareth Griffiths NHRC
Nice thinking Stuart 

01/06/2017 08:15:46
Chris Martin
I tried that - you'd need a 1:3 to get rid of enough to make a difference and it made the halyard makeup twist, or at least contributed to the problem.
 
I think myself and a couple of others came up with a similar solution thats easier to show in pics than to explain!
 
 

02/06/2017 17:36:54
Gareth Griffiths NHRC
All pics welcome Chris.

06/06/2017 14:59:32
Barnsie
Hi. I'll take some photos of the rigged system at HISC next weekend. Drop me your email and we'll send over
 

12/06/2017 08:43:38
Barnsie
Nick I now have photos of Ours and Chris Martin's systems if you drop me your email. Might be worth adding to the website as well
 

20/10/2017 11:32:18
Scam
@barnsie can you send me the pics please?
 

20/10/2017 12:28:00
Barnsie
Send me your email to barnsieb14(at)sky.com

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