After a season of use and development of pole launching systems what are the views of the best way to rig the system, the advantages and problems?

The only one worth using is the Musketeer system (one for all and all for one) from Jon Turner. Single line launch, no puller, no bloody snodger and the tack always goes to the end of the pole.  Sock on boom prevents high-speed impact with helm's face on retrieval and means no garroting by the slack launch line when stowed.

Jury still out for me, staying standard for now.

We had a conversion done by JT when the aft tank went in, well, I say conversion - all this entailed was fitting a second sheave at the puller location and a pair of cleats by the kingposts. Been playing with rope types - just about to go to Marlow Matrix - and having a few knitting problems with the thin line inside the poles. We haven't got the sock but kept the stanrad twin pole elastic. That is the next thing to go - I'll clip the mast end to the pole end, so that the pole is still held up when stowed, as we had an issue with the last 6" of pole launch which I think was related to this innocuous thing.

The system solved our problem of losing places on the first reach at the champs. Lost them at the gybe mark but that was another case of over enthusiastic boat bimbling (just say no to the bridle main next time ....).

Will give you my verdict after this weekend. 
i spend alot of time setting them up but this weekend i wil get to use them and find out which system works and doesnt

i wil keep u posted

We helped develop the Dave Hayes / Jonny Ratcliffe system......I'll NEVER go back to standing up...falling over....shoving the pole on the mast by hand system......despite having had the pole in my face last year.  We don't have problems with the snodger just set it up at first practice launch and leave it alone.  Poles come off the mast nice and tidy thanks to the "bead bracelet" thingy.......absolutely brilliant modification all round.  Just a case of getting used to using a different system....we are a development class after all.

....can I just add....it was Jonny and Dave who thought of the system, but the 4 of us spent 2 days at Rutland talking about it...and suggesting ways to improve/modify it...so I'm not by any means suggesting it's our idea....actually MY input was fairly minimal Mike is the technically minded one!! just thought I'd clear that one up!!....having said all that in my (humble) opinion it's by far and away the best system, the other seems a bit over engineered to me...but then I'm blond...and a girlie...so complicated things stress me out WAY too much.  One aspect that did stand out was the fact that crews seem to love it...whilst many helms are not so sure....

Toby is a fan of the self launching pole system

Thanks for the feedback, just a couple of questions. How effective are the two blocks on the current mast fitting compared to the twin spinno mast fitting? Does the replacement of the puller with the pole launch line work well? Where to locate the cleats on the mast bor top of the front tank? Are there any diagrams of the alternative systems ( I had a look at the ones on Keith Callaghans website. Looking forward to more pearls of wisdom.

Pulleys on the mast fitting works, but the effective pole length is not so precise, and the pole is effectively shorter. I don't think losing 50mm of pole is much issue, but the guy setting becomes a lot vaguer, and the old knots will be in the wrong place.
Take care with elastic retraction, my crew managed a nastry bruise to her face the other week. Luckily I had fitted fairly large plastic ends to the poles. 
I am about to change my system to re-instate the elastic that the pole end slides down on a block, like the 'normal system' instead of just relying on elastic pulling the pole back under tension. So the inner end of the pole should stay above the boom and out of my face.
I still think it is worth doing, particularly if the crew does not have strong arms and shoulders.
I think the Jellyfish had a neat carbon spiro-esque fitting? Is that available to buy?

Double spiro available (usual suspects or direct from South Africa).

We have the cleats under the foredeck about 1' off centreline outboard of the king posts on BAU. Set so that an upwards motion cleats the rope.

Points to note:

1. the thin line on the Musketeer system inside the poles does catch on the jib and has a tendancy to knot up inside the poles = slow. We make sure that the rope is fully pulled out when rigging up each day.
2. the pole "swings" away from the mast which is disconcerting but not detrimental to performance.
3. it is better to have the kite at the end of the pole than the pole to the blocks although I guess the cover photo on the mag shows a different story!
4. we didn't lose any places at the windward mark with our system, so big gains from the traditional snodger system.

Got Jennie King proving the system for me this Autumn, so it will be right in a few more goes. Got to make sure that the launch lines are the right type of rope (not too thin, too slippery, does not thin in cleats) and got to work on setting the pole up & downhauls the right length with the right bits of elastic in there too. Will also try the sex toys (beads on string) as we had a bit of pole cross over (old pole goes through over the top of the boom) which is rather detrimental in a gybe.

Work in progress, but optimistically trying to make this work. It will be better (anything that reduces operations - no puller, no snodger - HAS to be progress).

How does it compare with the old system of blocks on the mast,shock cord in the boom.(Late 70's early 80's).

Spiros have too much friction as the line goes 270° round it.  Blocks are better even if you lose an inch or two of effective pole length – the Merlin pole is plenty long enough for the kite anyway.

Re Andy's points:
>1. the thin line on the Musketeer system inside the poles does catch on the jib and has a tendancy to knot up inside the poles = slow. We make sure that the rope is fully pulled out when rigging up each day.
Never had an issue with them catching on the jib – you may need to make them a bit longer.
Yes, the block inside the pole can twist (especially if you wrap the launch line around your hand when launching and impart a twist), so checking them before going afloat is essential.  NB JT is working on a fix for this with a stringer inside the pole so the block cannot twist.

>2. the pole "swings" away from the mast which is disconcerting but not detrimental to performance.
You need a boom sock. (Also prevents pole hitting helm in the face on retrieval)

>3. it is better to have the kite at the end of the pole than the pole to the blocks although I guess the cover photo on the mag shows a different story!
Yes, it is amazing how many people carp about losing length at the inboard end, then you see them sailing around with the tack 6" behind the outboard end on a right reach...

>4. we didn't lose any places at the windward mark with our system, so big gains from the traditional snodger system.
Now you can start gaining places at the windward mark!

Re broz' question about the oldskool systems: in the late 70s and early 80s a single pole was way faster than any double pole system.  In fact most of the systems BT (before Turner) were a bit crap: hog-stepped masts, 1:1 jib halyard, no raking, conventional hoop...
;-)

Are we entering a new description of the ages of humanity here? BT and presumably AT. How about Before 'Tales...?

Spoke to JT about his mod for the inside of the poles. Will think further on it. The thin lines are new (apparently this is the main problem) and are double the pole length, so plenty long enough, but too much friction on them, so that they are still under tension when the kite is down.

Still unsure about the sock, the problem we were having was that the poles were not going aft enough, so probably an elastic tension issue rather than anything more. We need to change the launch lines to something more fluffy than coated dyneema, so that will help.

Crack on!!

Andy, thinking of the launch lines mounted under the foredeck (currently our puller is in the same place) I wondered how much line is pulled through to launch a pole? is there enough on the floor for the crew to inadvertently tread on it and uncleat from the upside down fitting? The short length of puller isn't an issue for us.

I haven't seen one up close and have no idea how much surplus line there would be, or if it would need a take away tucked somewhere?

Found Keith's schematics - very helpful - appears that there may be 3 or 4 metres of string in the boat after the pole is out and its cleated? 
I'm thinking through the beneits of mounting the cleats under the foredeck or on the tank and where the string will go when the pole is deployed.

JT (well, really Mr Parslow) has the cleats, but they are the rocking type. We have them under the foredeck so hat an upwards motion on the rope as you are pulling it pulls the rope into the cleat. There is some debate (I believe) on the "on mast" swivel jammers, whether up to cleat or vice cersa is best. It depends whether you are standing up or not really.

There is about 3m of rope as a tail (the 1:2 inside the pole reduces this from about 5m). The loose tail of the launched pole does require careful management. I currently have the launch lines as one continuous length, but am thinking of having seperate tails lining to the jib barber haulers now.

I guess that the next iteration could be to have a pump out pole system with a 1:3 under the foredeck, but this is beyond me at the moment.

The tank top might offer some possibilites to do a take-up system for the tail, but again you need to consider where you are hoisting from (could be aft of the hoop!) and more importantly releasing from.

Thanks Andy - makes perfect sense.  For us the pulling up into the cleat hasn't caused a problem for the puller so I thought it would be an equally good place for the launch cleats if we do fit them. Its still at shoulder level for the crew when they're crouching in the naughty corner so its not a difficult pull. Our tank was a thin ply top so I hadn't any desire to put blocks and cleats on it.

The main issue I had with the under the foredeck cleat was getting the launch line to lead to the cleat well. I have a block tied into the one string block, so launch line comes through the puller cleat, through this blcok then back up to the rib under the foredeck and then aft to the cleat. Probably should post a pic on FB or something as it is harder to describe in text!!

I'll take some pictures next weekend when the mast is next up.

The best cleats i have found so far for the spin-lock cleats. they work 1st time had u can never miss cleating it. as for systems and where to put the cleat i not sure there is much difference between having them on the deck and on the mast. i suppose it just how much work you wanna do to your boats. 

i am possibly looking to remove the down hail control (snodgers) and just have them elasticated (not sure on spelling) similar to the 505 so 1 less job for the helm to forget to do. this would mean the pole launch line is then connected to the spinnaker sheet but will mean more rope in the boat. in the boat i sail we have a small soak away system on the end of the lauch line so less string around your feet. i recon that this could help make the crews job easier.

me forget the snogger never lols

Hello everyone,
 
I'm a new Merlin owner, having recently bought Easy Rider #3618 to sail from Bosham with my wife.
 
We have had a couple of light wind outings and one with some entertainingly tippy (s-l-o-w) hoists and gybes. So, being a sensible, if not hugely experienced bow-girl, she has showed considerable interest me converting our current manual clip-on twin pole arrangement to a Musketeer type rope launch system.
 
I have read this and similar threads, so am much encouraged, but when I try to click on this: 
 
http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/gallery/default.asp?folder=gallery/building_and_repairs/genii_design_2012 
 
or any other MROA gallery links, I get a 404 page error, headed thus:
 
 "HTTP Error 404.0 - Not Found
The resource you are looking for has been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."
 
Is this a temporary fault with the website or something to do with me not being properly registered to look at linked photos?
 
Second (technical) question: 
 
Given that you are now 2 years down the line from the start of this thread, is there now a generally accepted preference with the rope-launched poles to have a) "conventionally" rigged snodger (as I currently have), or b) to separate the snodger from the downhaul as with Keith's schematic of the Musketeer system.
With the latter, is the twisting 2:1 snodger purchase inside the pole still an issue - or just a matter of choosing a less twist-prone type of rope?
 
Many thanks, and looking forward to meeting some of you on the water next year
 
Frazer. 
 
 
 

All archive images (including the Genii Design 2012) are here:
http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/index.asp?selection=Gallery&id=Archive
There's still quite a bit of linking to be fixed in the content for the images. 

 Hi Frazer
 I converted my Winder from the conventional pole system that you've got to the Spiro pole system back in April of this year. I've had no regrets or issues and see it as being a great investment when you can out gybe the most experienced of teams in tough conditions who have the conventional system.
The Spiro is the most common system with only a small few using the Musketeer system, I believe.
I opted to go for the Spiro, having spoken to a number of top sailors in the fleet, and bought a conversion kit from Ben McGrane at P&B South. This included all the blocks, elastics and ropes etc all ready to go and Ben even sent me a detailed email with instructions and measurements. This proved very easy to fit and provided great understanding of the system and saved the obvious fitting fee from a builder. The snodger stays the same and most don't adjust it or even use it whilst racing, puller stays the same too so very little actually changes.
 
The top tips that I have heard and found myself are;
Using the right pull string is important to avoid wear and breakage whilst racing, mine has been fine all year and still looks in good condition. Others have found that their outer wears and snags.
Keeping the spiro pole system simple (avoiding the internal 2:1 line and any other unnecessary extras) reduces the chance of gear breakage and snagging etc.
Mounting the pole cleats on the foredeck is not recommended as they have pulled off in use. Instead, consider mounting them on the carbon compass bracket (filled with resin to screw into) if you have one. This is a good position to use the pole lines too. 
Most people mount their spinlock cleats upside down so that it cleats as you pull it up and you just knock it down to drop it.
An elasticated guide that runs the pole length is necessary so that it avoids the crews head, I don't think I've had a single incident of this happening. 
There a few Spiro fitting options but I'd recommend the proper Spiro fitting which may be more expensive but works perfectly. 

Chunky and Oliver,
 
many thanks for the speedy, comprehensive advice and the link to the archives; I'm not sure that this will count as a legitimate Xmas present for Mrs. W, but here goes!
 
Best. 
 
 

Hi Frazer, I purchased and have been using the Jon Turner 'Musketeer system' supplied by Phoenix works and it offers a number of advantages over other systems, it is much cheaper, for one thing, having no spiro fitting and works beautifully; in terms of sailing it removes both the puller and snodger, whilst supporting the mast at a better angle to the foredeck than a conventional puller. So, I pull one string to hoist the kite and the crew pulls one string to 'make' the pole then goes for sheet. Any teething troubles that the earlier boats experienced have been completely sorted now. I had an Easy Roller fitted out similarly to yours and this is a league apart, frankly, even my 15 year old daughter uses it with ease.

I installed the Musketeer system on 3285 as soon as I saw JT's boat at the Dinghy Show. I think it is great. I am interested to hear that it has been refined since then. Can anyone tell me what changes have been made please? I am currently restoring Smart Cookie and want to install the same launch system. Naturally I want to install the most up to date version. Thanks.

One planned change JT told me was to move the through deck blocks (for the puller part of the system) to the centre rather than the sides.

What purchase do you guys have on your snodger/down haul????

The old style boats have just a 2:1 on the snodger Gareth. 

I saw Mark and Lou's boat has 5:1 that's a two year old wonder I think...

I guess if I set up the same I can reduce purchase easily enough...

I'm pretty sure I rigged ours with a 4:1 - that's still a lot of string to pull through - I've heard a few people say they set and forget when using the pole launch system. I guess it depends on having enough travel up the queen post - I think I've seen the purchase put in along the CB case on some boats? hth...

Cheers Kieron

I have set up a the same as on a winder boat and will give it a test run tomorrow...

G